(some) Shippers, Y U NO understand canon?

[The Situational Badass]

I realize many shippers out there recognize what's canon and what isn't, and I respect them, but this thread is directed at those who don't.

First, writers who claim non-canoncial parings are canon: Canon is established by the writers, not the fans. If you claim your pairing is canon and it isn't (this mostly applies to slash pairings), then it is fanon. FANON =/= CANON, unless it becomes Ascended Fanon. (I'm not bashing anyone here, just voicing my thoughts. This is a free-speech website is it not? Are we allowed to have our own opinions? Thought so.)

Second is "Die For Our Ship" attitudes. TV Tropes page for Die For Our Ship This explains it. To cut to the point, it's just plain annoying.
(Beware, TV Tropes link. You may end up on a endless Wiki Walk.)

I lost my train of thought, so hopefully someone will bring it back.

[The Drunken Jester]

As someone who, after years of being a shipper, has finally learned to respect the canon.... I HEAR YOU SO LOUDLY!

I cannot stand the people who will rail at anyone who dares to ship something other than what they ship.

You know what. I admit it, I am a Harry/Luna fan (and a Harry/Snape fan since I'm a yaoi lover). But I can respect Harry/Ginny as canon. Really i even still like reading it and thinking about it too, because I have finally learned to respect canon as the truth of the fandom. Even if I think the pairing is sort of stupid.

As a fanfiction writer who is currently writing a pairing fanfic over a controversial pairing that seems really really obvious to me in canon I CAN see why some people shout " OMG IT'S CANON YOU KNOW IT IS!"

Sometimes you just want to believe. Sometimes it's EASY to believe. But there are generally reasons why it's not canon.

For my hidden example it's the age difference between the characters.
For other examples it's because the two characters just aren't gay and some yaoi fans can't appreciate a good platonic bromance.
The reasons vary.

However.... I sometimes take the other... darker side of this debate.

One fanon pairing that I cannot get past - mostly because the build up was actually there and then canon blind sided us....
Seven of Nine and the Doctor from Star Trek Voyager.
YES IT IS A REAL PAIRING YES IT IS CANON AND THAT SEVEN/CHAKOTAY PAIRING WAS INTRODUCED IN THE LAST 3 EPISODES AND MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO FRICKKIN SENSE!!!
RAAAAEEEGGG!!!!

..... Okay, sorry. Had to do it.

[The Situational Badass]

The Drunken Jester

As someone who, after years of being a shipper, has finally learned to respect the canon.... I HEAR YOU SO LOUDLY!

I cannot stand the people who will rail at anyone who dares to ship something other than what they ship.

You know what. I admit it, I am a Harry/Luna fan (and a Harry/Snape fan since I'm a yaoi lover). But I can respect Harry/Ginny as canon. Really i even still like reading it and thinking about it too, because I have finally learned to respect canon as the truth of the fandom. Even if I think the pairing is sort of stupid.

As a fanfiction writer who is currently writing a pairing fanfic over a controversial pairing that seems really really obvious to me in canon I CAN see why some people shout " OMG IT'S CANON YOU KNOW IT IS!"

Sometimes you just want to believe. Sometimes it's EASY to believe. But there are generally reasons why it's not canon.

For my hidden example it's the age difference between the characters.
For other examples it's because the two characters just aren't gay and some yaoi fans can't appreciate a good platonic bromance.
The reasons vary.

However.... I sometimes take the other... darker side of this debate.

One fanon pairing that I cannot get past - mostly because the build up was actually there and then canon blind sided us....
Seven of Nine and the Doctor from Star Trek Voyager.
YES IT IS A REAL PAIRING YES IT IS CANON AND THAT SEVEN/CHAKOTAY PAIRING WAS INTRODUCED IN THE LAST 3 EPISODES AND MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO FRICKKIN SENSE!!!
RAAAAEEEGGG!!!!

..... Okay, sorry. Had to do it.

It's nice to see another shipper who respects canon. (Yes, I'm male. Yes I'm a shipper. No I'm not gay. No, this does not form a paradox.)

[WileyDairyGnome]

I usually only ship couples that are actually canon so I have no problem there. xp

[Renkon Root]

In my own writing I usually only ever ship canon pairs. Mostly, because I'm to lazy to go through the necessary development a relationship building it would take to make any non-canon pair plausible.

However, as a reader I have mixed feelings about non-canon ships. There are certain non-canon pairs that I actually do support even if I will never write a story of my own about them. (Like Tim/Kon from the Young Justice and Teen Titans comics.) But if you're going to ship a couple that is not canon then you have to take time to develop the characters' feelings for one another and actually build their relationship. Most authors don't do this, they just have the characters already together with no explanation of how they got to that point or why. Its my opinion that any pair, canon or non-canon, strait or homosexual, etc. could be made plausible in the hands of a good author. The problem is (on average) most of the people who write fan fiction are not good authors.

That's why I have mixed feelings on non-canon ships.

[Soaring Sheep]

That's silly. Clearly when character A and character B attempt to kill each other it's for some deeper reason other than them clearly having a mutual hatred of each other. D:

I'm guilty of reading fanfiction like that occasionally, but I would never actually believe the pairing was possible.

[Princess Dustbunny]

Renkon Root

In my own writing I usually only ever ship canon pairs. Mostly, because I'm to lazy to go through the necessary development a relationship building it would take to make any non-canon pair plausible.

However, as a reader I have mixed feelings about non-canon ships. There are certain non-canon pairs that I actually do support even if I will never write a story of my own about them. (Like Tim/Kon from the Young Justice and Teen Titans comics.) But if you're going to ship a couple that is not canon then you have to take time to develop the characters' feelings for one another and actually build their relationship. Most authors don't do this, they just have the characters already together with no explanation of how they got to that point or why. Its my opinion that any pair, canon or non-canon, strait or homosexual, etc. could be made plausible in the hands of a good author. The problem is (on average) most of the people who write fan fiction are not good authors.

That's why I have mixed feelings on non-canon ships.

I can only partially agree.

In a longer work that features a non-canon ship, building an explanation behind it is absolutely necessary, imo. Same goes for ships that have canon basis (frex, will-they-or-won't-they relationships) but haven't gotten together in canon. I need to know why the characters involved are finally getting into it.

However, someone who's writing a short fluff piece about a non-canon ship is probably writing it for a) themselves and b) other fans of the ship. Fans of a given ship tend to have a good idea of what they like about it, and how they want to see the characters involved interact. If I click on a short one-shot for Shino/Sakura (Naruto) or Hermione/Luna (Harry Potter) or Prussia/America (Hetalia) that boasts an established relationship, it's because I'm interested in seeing those characters interact with each other in a romantic and/or sexual situation, not because I'm in the mood for the next great romantic epic. As long as the story is good and the characters are in character, I don't especially care how they got together.

Mind, I say this as someone who's a fan of crack pairings and short stories.

[Aha]

Thinking about it, despite the fact that I rarely read canon pairings, I've never been one of those fans. I've written canon and fanon and oc pairings, so I'm pretty much where you stand on the matter. As long as the fan can be respectful of the canon, I'm okay with them. I mean, sure, it's fun to play around with what if pairs, but that doesn't mean you can s**t on the established ones.

[Pokeprof]

The Occasional Traveller

I realize many shippers out there recognize what's canon and what isn't, and I respect them, but this thread is directed at those who don't.

First, writers who claim non-canoncial parings are canon: Canon is established by the writers, not the fans. If you claim your pairing is canon and it isn't (this mostly applies to slash pairings), then it is fanon. FANON =/= CANON, unless it becomes Ascended Fanon. (I'm not bashing anyone here, just voicing my thoughts. This is a free-speech website is it not? Are we allowed to have our own opinions? Thought so.)

Second is "Die For Our Ship" attitudes. TV Tropes page for Die For Our Ship This explains it. To cut to the point, it's just plain annoying.
(Beware, TV Tropes link. You may end up on a endless Wiki Walk.)

I lost my train of thought, so hopefully someone will bring it back.

My only problem with any specific shipping that happens in a fandom is when the pair together characters that in canon couldn't be further apart. Example of this that I like to point out specifically would be Zuko/Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Outside of one or two scenes in the show, of which were put in because of fans of that pairing, the characters have little to no interaction with each other, good OR bad. It really seems that the only reason anyone wants them together is because Zuko's the only other male that you can really pair Katara with and he's 'cooler' then Aang.

That's not to say that I'm not a supporter of Fanon pairings. Two of my favorite pairings are Kim/Shego (Kim Possible) and Robin/Raven (Teen Titans). The difference between why I like my pairings vs the Zuko/Katara fans? My pairings are at least based on the characters, their personalities, and the interactions with each other. Without going into huge detail, Kim and Shego know each other very well through constant interaction, fighting, and even helping each other from time to time. Robin and Raven both haven't had the easiest of childhoods, are serious minded, and tend to be more focused about what needs to be done instead of the less then focused desires of the rest of the Titans (specially if you're going by the cartoon version of the comics). Katara and Zuko are the Hero girl and the Bad boy turning good respectively and that's about it.

That said, if there IS a canon pairing in a series, that's the pairing. If you do anything different, that's fanon. No ifs, ands, or buts. Have fun writing your fanon, but don't dictate it as the 'This is what's real, no matter what' kind of attitude.

[The Situational Badass]

Pokeprof

The Occasional Traveller

I realize many shippers out there recognize what's canon and what isn't, and I respect them, but this thread is directed at those who don't.

First, writers who claim non-canoncial parings are canon: Canon is established by the writers, not the fans. If you claim your pairing is canon and it isn't (this mostly applies to slash pairings), then it is fanon. FANON =/= CANON, unless it becomes Ascended Fanon. (I'm not bashing anyone here, just voicing my thoughts. This is a free-speech website is it not? Are we allowed to have our own opinions? Thought so.)

Second is "Die For Our Ship" attitudes. TV Tropes page for Die For Our Ship This explains it. To cut to the point, it's just plain annoying.
(Beware, TV Tropes link. You may end up on a endless Wiki Walk.)

I lost my train of thought, so hopefully someone will bring it back.

My only problem with any specific shipping that happens in a fandom is when the pair together characters that in canon couldn't be further apart. Example of this that I like to point out specifically would be Zuko/Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Outside of one or two scenes in the show, of which were put in because of fans of that pairing, the characters have little to no interaction with each other, good OR bad. It really seems that the only reason anyone wants them together is because Zuko's the only other male that you can really pair Katara with and he's 'cooler' then Aang.

That's not to say that I'm not a supporter of Fanon pairings. Two of my favorite pairings are Kim/Shego (Kim Possible) and Robin/Raven (Teen Titans). The difference between why I like my pairings vs the Zuko/Katara fans? My pairings are at least based on the characters, their personalities, and the interactions with each other. Without going into huge detail, Kim and Shego know each other very well through constant interaction, fighting, and even helping each other from time to time. Robin and Raven both haven't had the easiest of childhoods, are serious minded, and tend to be more focused about what needs to be done instead of the less then focused desires of the rest of the Titans (specially if you're going by the cartoon version of the comics). Katara and Zuko are the Hero girl and the Bad boy turning good respectively and that's about it.

That said, if there IS a canon pairing in a series, that's the pairing. If you do anything different, that's fanon. No ifs, ands, or buts. Have fun writing your fanon, but don't dictate it as the 'This is what's real, no matter what' kind of attitude.

Thank you for basically extending upon what I said. Much appreciated.

[Pokeprof]

The Occasional Traveller

Thank you for basically extending upon what I said. Much appreciated.

No problem. I know how irritating it can be for someone to jump on you for going with (or even against) the canon in some franchises. Ranma 1/2 was like that a lot at FF.net.

[Mon_Shire]

I do understand canon, but for the most part the canon relationship are already taken nice and far and it really doesn't leave much writing room. I admit to playing around with couples and such for writing as it's more fun when you have a clean slate to work off of. However, that doesn't mean that I completely ignore canon. One of my favorite fandoms right now is Criminal Minds, and while I love the idea of Morgan and Hotch together, I won't write anything about them save for the random thoughts on Morgan's part. *SPOILER! At least until after Haley is killed as Hotch is still in love with her and such and them being canon meant there was a possibility of them getting back together.*SPOILER*

[Princess Dustbunny]

Pokeprof

My only problem with any specific shipping that happens in a fandom is when the pair together characters that in canon couldn't be further apart. Example of this that I like to point out specifically would be Zuko/Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Outside of one or two scenes in the show, of which were put in because of fans of that pairing, the characters have little to no interaction with each other, good OR bad. It really seems that the only reason anyone wants them together is because Zuko's the only other male that you can really pair Katara with and he's 'cooler' then Aang.

That's not to say that I'm not a supporter of Fanon pairings. Two of my favorite pairings are Kim/Shego (Kim Possible) and Robin/Raven (Teen Titans). The difference between why I like my pairings vs the Zuko/Katara fans? My pairings are at least based on the characters, their personalities, and the interactions with each other. Without going into huge detail, Kim and Shego know each other very well through constant interaction, fighting, and even helping each other from time to time. Robin and Raven both haven't had the easiest of childhoods, are serious minded, and tend to be more focused about what needs to be done instead of the less then focused desires of the rest of the Titans (specially if you're going by the cartoon version of the comics). Katara and Zuko are the Hero girl and the Bad boy turning good respectively and that's about it.

That said, if there IS a canon pairing in a series, that's the pairing. If you do anything different, that's fanon. No ifs, ands, or buts. Have fun writing your fanon, but don't dictate it as the 'This is what's real, no matter what' kind of attitude.

Okay, trying not to be one of Those Fans, because this isn't serious business. But who are you exactly to tell other people why they ship what they ship, and why is what you ship more legitimate? It's all fanon anyway. Zuko and Katara's relationship in canon didn't leave an impression on you, cool. Deciding that their relationship in canon therefore couldn't have left an impression on anybody, not so cool. Are people who don't ship Kim/Shego and Robin/Raven also wrong, for not seeing their relationships the way you do? What about people who do ship them, but for different reasons than you?

You're absolutely correct that canon is canon and fanon shippers who cry foul when their ships aren't vindicated by canon/claim their ships are TRUE CANON/look down on canon shippers for bowing to The Man are in the wrong. But ranking your own fanon above other people's fanon because reasons is no more right.

[The Situational Badass]

Princess Dustbunny

Pokeprof

My only problem with any specific shipping that happens in a fandom is when the pair together characters that in canon couldn't be further apart. Example of this that I like to point out specifically would be Zuko/Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Outside of one or two scenes in the show, of which were put in because of fans of that pairing, the characters have little to no interaction with each other, good OR bad. It really seems that the only reason anyone wants them together is because Zuko's the only other male that you can really pair Katara with and he's 'cooler' then Aang.

That's not to say that I'm not a supporter of Fanon pairings. Two of my favorite pairings are Kim/Shego (Kim Possible) and Robin/Raven (Teen Titans). The difference between why I like my pairings vs the Zuko/Katara fans? My pairings are at least based on the characters, their personalities, and the interactions with each other. Without going into huge detail, Kim and Shego know each other very well through constant interaction, fighting, and even helping each other from time to time. Robin and Raven both haven't had the easiest of childhoods, are serious minded, and tend to be more focused about what needs to be done instead of the less then focused desires of the rest of the Titans (specially if you're going by the cartoon version of the comics). Katara and Zuko are the Hero girl and the Bad boy turning good respectively and that's about it.

That said, if there IS a canon pairing in a series, that's the pairing. If you do anything different, that's fanon. No ifs, ands, or buts. Have fun writing your fanon, but don't dictate it as the 'This is what's real, no matter what' kind of attitude.

Okay, trying not to be one of Those Fans, because this isn't serious business. But who are you exactly to tell other people why they ship what they ship, and why is what you ship more legitimate? It's all fanon anyway. Zuko and Katara's relationship in canon didn't leave an impression on you, cool. Deciding that their relationship in canon therefore couldn't have left an impression on anybody, not so cool. Are people who don't ship Kim/Shego and Robin/Raven also wrong, for not seeing their relationships the way you do? What about people who do ship them, but for different reasons than you?

You're absolutely correct that canon is canon and fanon shippers who cry foul when their ships aren't vindicated by canon/claim their ships are TRUE CANON/look down on canon shippers for bowing to The Man are in the wrong. But ranking your own fanon above other people's fanon because reasons is no more right.

There's a fallacy in that logic. I don't follow any ships but canon, and in fandoms where there is no canon relationship I do not ship.

[Princess Dustbunny]

The Occasional Traveller

Princess Dustbunny

Pokeprof

My only problem with any specific shipping that happens in a fandom is when the pair together characters that in canon couldn't be further apart. Example of this that I like to point out specifically would be Zuko/Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Outside of one or two scenes in the show, of which were put in because of fans of that pairing, the characters have little to no interaction with each other, good OR bad. It really seems that the only reason anyone wants them together is because Zuko's the only other male that you can really pair Katara with and he's 'cooler' then Aang.

That's not to say that I'm not a supporter of Fanon pairings. Two of my favorite pairings are Kim/Shego (Kim Possible) and Robin/Raven (Teen Titans). The difference between why I like my pairings vs the Zuko/Katara fans? My pairings are at least based on the characters, their personalities, and the interactions with each other. Without going into huge detail, Kim and Shego know each other very well through constant interaction, fighting, and even helping each other from time to time. Robin and Raven both haven't had the easiest of childhoods, are serious minded, and tend to be more focused about what needs to be done instead of the less then focused desires of the rest of the Titans (specially if you're going by the cartoon version of the comics). Katara and Zuko are the Hero girl and the Bad boy turning good respectively and that's about it.

That said, if there IS a canon pairing in a series, that's the pairing. If you do anything different, that's fanon. No ifs, ands, or buts. Have fun writing your fanon, but don't dictate it as the 'This is what's real, no matter what' kind of attitude.

Okay, trying not to be one of Those Fans, because this isn't serious business. But who are you exactly to tell other people why they ship what they ship, and why is what you ship more legitimate? It's all fanon anyway. Zuko and Katara's relationship in canon didn't leave an impression on you, cool. Deciding that their relationship in canon therefore couldn't have left an impression on anybody, not so cool. Are people who don't ship Kim/Shego and Robin/Raven also wrong, for not seeing their relationships the way you do? What about people who do ship them, but for different reasons than you?

You're absolutely correct that canon is canon and fanon shippers who cry foul when their ships aren't vindicated by canon/claim their ships are TRUE CANON/look down on canon shippers for bowing to The Man are in the wrong. But ranking your own fanon above other people's fanon because reasons is no more right.

There's a fallacy in that logic. I don't follow any ships but canon, and in fandoms where there is no canon relationship I do not ship.

Okay? That's great if it's what works for you, but I'm not sure how it's relevant to the argument that fanon doesn't trump fanon.