It can't just be me that thinks about Fanfiction like this..

[Rotsab M. Hyolf]

[ Nicolette ]

Rotsab M. Hyolf

Is someone not an athlete until they've completed, or are they still an athlete during training?

Is someone an athlete because they do jumping jacks every day, or are they an athlete because they actually put an effort into what they do? That was more the gist of what I was getting at.

But you yourself pointed out that a lot of fanfiction writers go on to improve and become better writers. Why wouldn't that be the same as training? Besides, someone who does jumping jacks every day is going to be more athletic than someone who doesn't, by default.

I think there's a reason words like 'published author' exist, or even just 'author'. To say someone who writes isn't a writer is to say someone who swims isn't a swimmer.

[[ Nicolette ]]

Rotsab M. Hyolf

[ Nicolette ]

Rotsab M. Hyolf

Is someone not an athlete until they've completed, or are they still an athlete during training?

Is someone an athlete because they do jumping jacks every day, or are they an athlete because they actually put an effort into what they do? That was more the gist of what I was getting at.

But you yourself pointed out that a lot of fanfiction writers go on to improve and become better writers. Why wouldn't that be the same as training? Besides, someone who does jumping jacks every day is going to be more athletic than someone who doesn't, by default.

I think there's a reason words like 'published author' exist, or even just 'author'. To say someone who writes isn't a writer is to say someone who swims isn't a swimmer.

Hence why I went deeper into my explanation, saying, aside from the obvious literal definition of writer, I personally felt it had a connotation that expected higher quality. The problem was that the OP I think wanted to be differentiated from writers who put no more creativity into their work than someone who writes the smart kid's name on their test when handing it in.

[Rotsab M. Hyolf]

[ Nicolette ]

Hence why I went deeper into my explanation, saying, aside from the obvious literal definition of writer, I personally felt it had a connotation that expected higher quality. The problem was that the OP I think wanted to be differentiated from writers who put no more creativity into their work than someone who writes the smart kid's name on their test when handing it in.

But why not just say that? I'm sure it could have been worded; "It can't just be me who feels this way about writers who don't put their all into their work/seek to improve/try to write something interesting and worthwile." It isn't that people shouldn't aspire to write well, it's that there shouldn't be an implication that fanfiction writers are the only people who will write poorly. If it wasn't posed as an original writers vs. fanfiction writers I'm sure everyone would be agreeing with Blanket Girl.

...Well, not everyone, the WF's a pretty argumentative bunch. xD But pretty close to it!

[[ Nicolette ]]

Rotsab M. Hyolf

[ Nicolette ]

Hence why I went deeper into my explanation, saying, aside from the obvious literal definition of writer, I personally felt it had a connotation that expected higher quality. The problem was that the OP I think wanted to be differentiated from writers who put no more creativity into their work than someone who writes the smart kid's name on their test when handing it in.

But why not just say that? I'm sure it could have been worded; "It can't just be me who feels this way about writers who don't put their all into their work/seek to improve/try to write something interesting and worthwile." It isn't that people shouldn't aspire to write well, it's that there shouldn't be an implication that fanfiction writers are the only people who will write poorly. If it wasn't posed as an original writers vs. fanfiction writers I'm sure everyone would be agreeing with Blanket Girl.

...Well, not everyone, the WF's a pretty argumentative bunch. xD But pretty close to it!

Yeah I guess, but I can't exactly speak for her since I'm not her. But, I assume her issue was the perceived lack of overall creativity in fanfiction that rewrites stories (i.e. I used to write Kingdom Hearts fanfiction with OCs I created for myself and a friend, just so they could be in it) to fit their own preferences.

[Rotsab M. Hyolf]

[ Nicolette ]

Yeah I guess, but I can't exactly speak for her since I'm not her. But, I assume her issue was the perceived lack of overall creativity in fanfiction that rewrites stories (i.e. I used to write Kingdom Hearts fanfiction with OCs I created for myself and a friend, just so they could be in it) to fit their own preferences.

I think there's still a learning experience to be had, there, and that it does help you become a better writer. You had to follow the conventions of the world, the characters there and come up with a plot and, if there were OCs, invent your own characters as well. It might not be as expressive as Lord Of The Rings, but you were still writing -- you learned about characters, interactions, settings, plot, and all of that counts. I used to write plenty of fanfiction as an outlet, or even just to study characters; it didn't make me less of a writer, because I was still writing during that time. Any kind of writing helps, I think, because if nothing else it gets you in the habit.

To be fair, though, she has since edited her first post. It was initially a lot more offensively worded. I still think it's unfair to say someone who writers fanfiction can't call themselves a writer -- they might not be as established or ripping their hair out, but that just means there are different levels, it doesn't necessarily negate one from existing. At least in my mind; as I said elsewhere, of course other people are allowed to have a different opinion. If you still don't think you were a writer at that point in time, that's fair. I like to think I was still one though, heh.

[Kilted]

Nicolette

Oh for the love of... Haters gonna hate, aren't they? Quit raging at this poor girl for having an opinion gonk

We aren't hating or raging. We're disagreeing.

Quote:

Like someone else said on the first page... "Saying fanficcers aren't writers is saying fanartists aren't artists". I agree with that. However, the words "writer" and "artist" have a more... professional, for lack of a better word, connotation to them.(1) For example, when a mother compliments her 3 year old on a crappy finger painting and calls them "my little artist" it's done sarcastically.(2)

(1)No they don't. There's thousands of writers on the Nanowrimo forum who've never been published. "Writer" is aspirational. "Novelist", now that could be more professional, but I haven't seen any fanfic writers calling themselves novelists so that's beside the point. (2)No she doesn't. Sarcasm is expressing contempt or derision, or at the very least, bitter irony. I'd give you contrived. I'd maybe give you insincere-but-supportive. But really, I think again, it's being used in an aspirational way.

And even if you don't agree with that, isn't it ultimately being factual? The kid made a work of art (more of a work of art than some professional art --- urinal?). Besides, what would you suggest we use instead of writer if you don't think fanfiction writers should be allowed to be called that?

Quote:

If you are merely writing fanfiction to rewrite the base story to go your way, whether or not you add your own original characters to it, it is lazy, and in the world of literature it has no worth. It has nothing to offer, other than one's own opinions on how something--already published that many others enjoy in its original form--should have gone. This, I can speak on, as I spent the better part of my teen years writing such fanfiction... and it shames me to this day to think about it emotion_facepalm

Wow. Clearly, you feel very strongly about this issue. I am very sorry to hear that your experience with fanfiction haunts you. I haven't been a teenager for awhile (I still write fanfiction) but certainly I can empathize with you to a point. Some of my old work is a bit embarrassing but that's not because it is fanfic - it's simply that I hadn't really mastered the art yet and with more practice and feedback, I got better and better.

I must, however, utterly and completely disagree with you when you say that fanfic has no worth beyond practice. I don't see how that could fit with Wicked or BBC Sherlock, for example. And I don't see how the issue of enjoying the original comes into it at all. Most fans do enjoy the original (which is, of course, why they are 'fans' and their work is 'fanfiction'). Canon doesn't get mythical untouchable status because its canon - I think that's taking the suspension of disbelief too far. You have to think about and respond to what you read, whether that takes the form of literary criticism, book club discussion, or fanfiction. I don't think that the fact that some fanfiction is fanwank or crackfic or even is simply badly written can justify the statements you're making here because there's plenty of fanfiction out there that, just like original fiction, is written because the writer has something to say.

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I want my writing to be read, and enjoyed, but no one is going to publish fanfiction unless you miraculously obtain consent from the creators of the base.

I think everyone who has ever written fanfiction acknowledges that fanfiction is largely a means for practice,

This is exactly why most people get into faniction and stay with it for so long. It's why Tamora Pierce suggests aspiring young writers try fanfiction. It doesn't matter that its not going to get published - it is going to get read.

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In my opinion, you only have the potential to become a truly great writer when you evolve from fanfiction...

I don't think being a writer and being a great writer are the same thing. This goes back to the point I made earlier in the thread about needing to make sure we don't get an unrealistic definition of 'writer' in an effort to exclude fanfiction.

Please don't take my post as in any way attacking you. It is merely that I disagree and feel like if I can counter any of your supporting arguments then perhaps I can change your opinion or at least help you understand where I and several others on this thread are coming from with our opinions. I would certainly like to hear your responses to any counterarguments I've made.

[[ Nicolette ]]

Rotsab M. Hyolf

[ Nicolette ]

Yeah I guess, but I can't exactly speak for her since I'm not her. But, I assume her issue was the perceived lack of overall creativity in fanfiction that rewrites stories (i.e. I used to write Kingdom Hearts fanfiction with OCs I created for myself and a friend, just so they could be in it) to fit their own preferences.

I think there's still a learning experience to be had, there, and that it does help you become a better writer. You had to follow the conventions of the world, the characters there and come up with a plot and, if there were OCs, invent your own characters as well. It might not be as expressive as Lord Of The Rings, but you were still writing -- you learned about characters, interactions, settings, plot, and all of that counts. I used to write plenty of fanfiction as an outlet, or even just to study characters; it didn't make me less of a writer, because I was still writing during that time. Any kind of writing helps, I think, because if nothing else it gets you in the habit.

To be fair, though, she has since edited her first post. It was initially a lot more offensively worded. I still think it's unfair to say someone who writers fanfiction can't call themselves a writer -- they might not be as established or ripping their hair out, but that just means there are different levels, it doesn't necessarily negate one from existing. At least in my mind; as I said elsewhere, of course other people are allowed to have a different opinion. If you still don't think you were a writer at that point in time, that's fair. I like to think I was still one though, heh.

The learning experience for me was... not to do that again, ever, hahaha. But that's my personal experience with it, because I was bad at it. The reason I also said "perceived" lack of creativity is that, a good writer can actually add to the story, whereas OP and myself are merely thinking of the bad writers that only selfishly add what they wanted to see. So maybe it's more a debate of good and bad fanficcers than a debate of good and bad fanfiction.

And personally, no, I don't think of myself as a writer when I think of my 13-year-old self writing horrible KH fanfiction. I think of myself as a... writer-in-training, at best. You can do any verb, but when you call yourself a noun of that verb, people expect you to do it well. If I say I'm a singer because I sang in a school choir as it was a class requirement, then they realize my voice sounds terrible on its own, well, they wouldn't want me to call myself a singer either.

[[ Nicolette ]]

Kilted

Whoa whoa whoa, I never said ALL fanfiction had no worth, just the kind OP and I were referencing to. And I've now edited my stance, as talking things through usually makes me realize I may have said a few things that sounded close-minded. Per my last post, I've said perhaps it's more bad fanficcers we are trying to say shouldn't call themselves writers. You could also argue that bad original fiction writers who are even published shouldn't call themselves such either, but that wasn't what OP wanted to discuss, therefore it's moot here, not that I wouldn't agree with it.

You are all glorifying this type of fanfiction without knowing the extent of how bad the type I'm talking about is. I am not talking about making characters from the base react to new things, aside from welcoming an OC or two as friends. I am talking about, taking the base, WORD FOR WORD, by the script, and then just writing in an OC or two so you can feel a part of the story. This is what I did with KH. Before I thought to google a script, I used to, literally, play the game, and pause it every few seconds to write down the words so I could put it in the fanfic. I wanted it to be accurate, and I hardly added anything new to the series itself. I just added two OCs so my friend and I could feel a part of the story. That kind of writing lacks worth. I do not feel shame because it was fanfiction. I feel shame because it was plain bad writing and utterly lacked creativity.

Wicked, and Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister are different. They take the setting, and maybe a few characters, but then largely make the rest up themselves. I in fact lauded this type of fanfiction in my post.

I hope you understand what I'm talking about now. OP may not share my opinion, but I get the feeling this is what she meant when she talked about how largely derived fanfiction shouldn't really count.

[CoffeCat24]

Ouch. It seem like this well meaning thread was not very well received.

Part of being a writer is knowing your audience and telling the writer's forum on Gaia that they aren't writers is pretty pretentious. eek

I think most of the issues here stem from misunderstanding and our differing definitions of what the term "writer" actually means.

There are many diverging ways someone might be able to define "writer."

The problem with your definition is that it insinuates a writer's work must always be purely original. Unfortunately, originality is almost impossible and 90% of the work you see being published is simply emulation of something else. I, personally, am of the mindset that pure inspiration doesn't even exist, simply different combinations of the same elements.

So instead of claiming that A is not equivalent to B unless C, define what variable B is next time.

[Kilted]

Nicolette

Whoa whoa whoa, I never said ALL fanfiction had no worth, just the kind OP and I were referencing to. And I've now edited my stance, as talking things through usually makes me realize I may have said a few things that sounded close-minded. Per my last post, I've said perhaps it's more bad fanficcers we are trying to say shouldn't call themselves writers. You could also argue that bad original fiction writers who are even published shouldn't call themselves such either, but that wasn't what OP wanted to discuss, therefore it's moot here, not that I wouldn't agree with it.

I don't think it's up to you or to me to decide who is good enough to 'call themselves a writer'. I've heard people say that about Stephanie Meyer and about JK Rowling but that doesn't mean there aren't as many or more people who would vociferously, possibly violently, disagree. I am fine with rolling your eyes, maybe whinging amongst yourselves, but this goes too far. If you write, you're a writer. You yourself said that fanfic is for practice so it seems to me that the way to approach really bad work is either to ignore it or to give constructive criticism as politely as possible so they will keep on practicing and therefore get better. Don't assume I don't know how bad the really bad fics can be - I just don't think it matters. Telling them they're so bad they don't deserve to call themselves a writer is slamming the door in their enthusiastic, smiling faces. Maybe this is my Hufflepuff nature or maybe its my training in diplomacy but I do not think its okay to do that, no matter how bad the work is.

[I_Write_Ivre]

Kilted

Nicolette

Whoa whoa whoa, I never said ALL fanfiction had no worth, just the kind OP and I were referencing to. And I've now edited my stance, as talking things through usually makes me realize I may have said a few things that sounded close-minded. Per my last post, I've said perhaps it's more bad fanficcers we are trying to say shouldn't call themselves writers. You could also argue that bad original fiction writers who are even published shouldn't call themselves such either, but that wasn't what OP wanted to discuss, therefore it's moot here, not that I wouldn't agree with it.

I don't think it's up to you or to me to decide who is good enough to 'call themselves a writer'. I've heard people say that about Stephanie Meyer and about JK Rowling but that doesn't mean there aren't as many or more people who would vociferously, possibly violently, disagree. I am fine with rolling your eyes, maybe whinging amongst yourselves, but this goes too far. If you write, you're a writer. You yourself said that fanfic is for practice so it seems to me that the way to approach really bad work is either to ignore it or to give constructive criticism as politely as possible so they will keep on practicing and therefore get better. Don't assume I don't know how bad the really bad fics can be - I just don't think it matters. Telling them they're so bad they don't deserve to call themselves a writer is slamming the door in their enthusiastic, smiling faces. Maybe this is my Hufflepuff nature or maybe its my training in diplomacy but I do not think its okay to do that, no matter how bad the work is.

Isn't it also wrong to group those who write bad fics with those who don't? It's not right at all to say 'everyone from America is way too fat' because you see a few fat Americans on TV, right? Shouldn't the same thing apply to writing?

[The Drunken Jester]

Personally I think that writing fanfiction is a different beast altogether. MOST fanfiction is writing with established characters and drastically altering the existing plot. Which is hard to do and complex in it's own right but it's not the same as creating your own characters and worlds and plots for them.

I think the only reason fanfiction is so looked down upon is that it's so easy and free to publish (to the internet) that all the crap comes through as well as the excellent ones. So fanfiction writers are free to publish any stupid thing that comes into their heads, whereas there is a rigorous process of getting an agent and a publisher and having the story edited to get an original work published.

I think fanfiction can be great. I've found some really great ones and some that were much better than the original work they were based off of.