Help wanted with concepts

[False Dichotomy]

There's a story I'm writing, and lately I've had some dramatic shifts in how I want to structure the whole thing.

Essentially, for now, I'm running into a roadblock for the antagonists, so I would like some suggestions on how I could pull this off. These seven characters were going to be based off of the Seven Deadly Sins, but I find that to be a bit cliche, so I chose the actual biblical equivalent from Proverbs 6:16. In essence, each of these characters will be the embodiment of these attributes, but they hide it from others.

-A proud look.
-A lying tongue.
-Hands that shed innocent blood.
-A heart that devises wicked plots.
-Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
-A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
-Him that soweth discord among brethren.

What I need is not a character type that shows these at face value. What I need are suggestions on how characters that embody these values would act to hide them, or even justify them with their philosophy. These values are to be SUBTLE, but the driving factor for their persona. Their actions/personality will not immediately signify these things, but are rather there intentionally to mask them.

What I'm asking might be a bit vague, but let your imagination run wild, this is still in pretty early development and what goes on here will undoubtedly change some of the things I've already set in place.

[Kita-Ysabell]

I think what you want to do is to analyze each trait and the behaviors that it is meant to address. Then go back and come up with a justification for each behavior, and formulate a paradigm that includes this justification as a keystone.

And that's work that I'm not going to do for you.

[False Dichotomy]

Kita-Ysabell

I think what you want to do is to analyze each trait and the behaviors that it is meant to address. Then go back and come up with a justification for each behavior, and formulate a paradigm that includes this justification as a keystone.

And that's work that I'm not going to do for you.

Basically, yea. I'm just asking for others to give their ideas. The problem I'm mainly running into is that to create an identity that lies about/justifies their trait on the surface is not something that's directly apparent. It's more like you create an identity and force the value on them, which is something that's giving me a little trouble.

I'm not asking for anything like a complete character or a background or anything, more of just people throwing out ideas or experiences they've had so I can have a broad pool of ideas to mess with. I'm going to do what I can on my own, but I would certainly appreciate ideas from others that I would not think of on my own. I don't want everything to seem stale, even if it only appears that way to me.

[Rotsab M. Hyolf]

I think the best route for this would be to analyze their actual role in the story. What do you need them to do? Are they the Bringers of Zegnodd, some teachers who are preventing a highschool student from passing exams (and also demons), a criminal syndicate thousands of years in the future?

There are two problems I see with the setup as is. One, assuming these characters are human, sins are exactly the point. You will be hard-pressed to not meet anyone who has been lustful, arrogant, proud, so on. Likewise, I'm sure the same could be said about the majority of those sentences. A successful CEO would be proud, lying is too vague (is it lying if you tell your kids there is a Santa Clause? What about 'white lies'?), most people have had thier fair share of being a bully and being bullied, second sentence is very close to the first (wicked plots/shedding innocent blood), kids get into trouble all the time, witnesses are massively unreliable, and gossiping is typical among teenagers (particularly girls, I'd say, but with social networking at the level it is that isn't wholly true).

The point of the seven deadly sins was not to say, "NEVER DO THESE THINGS." The point was to show thei ntricate flaws in human nature, and the need for moderation and belief in God. It's the go-to justification for why people who are good but don't believe in God don't get into Heaven; because everyone has sinned at some time. Let he cast the first stone, and so on.

My point with this is that trying to say someone is inherently evil for any of those traits, when they are basics of human nature, is mean. If you're using demons who are perpetualk liars, sadistic monsters, etc., then it's easier to get away with but if you want to try and say humans are evil for poor social constructs and bad self-control then you'll likely have a harder time.

The other problem you might run into is what I like to call the Sailor Moon effect, though it is by no means invented by Sailor Moon or exclusive; the issue is with having multiple antagonists, or 'generals.' What ends up happening, usually anyways, is that it becomes a big quest for each and every one of the generals/villains to be stopped, sort of like a monster-of-the-week on Scooby Doo. It makes the story feel very formulaic and repetitive, and can destroy a story.

That's not to say it can't be done well; it's something to watch for, though.

The sin thing is a little more difficult to pull off convincingly. I could probably point you towards famous heroes who embodied at least one of each trait.

[False Dichotomy]

Rotsab M. Hyolf

I think the best route for this would be to analyze their actual role in the story. What do you need them to do? Are they the Bringers of Zegnodd, some teachers who are preventing a highschool student from passing exams (and also demons), a criminal syndicate thousands of years in the future?

There are two problems I see with the setup as is. One, assuming these characters are human, sins are exactly the point. You will be hard-pressed to not meet anyone who has been lustful, arrogant, proud, so on. Likewise, I'm sure the same could be said about the majority of those sentences. A successful CEO would be proud, lying is too vague (is it lying if you tell your kids there is a Santa Clause? What about 'white lies'?), most people have had thier fair share of being a bully and being bullied, second sentence is very close to the first (wicked plots/shedding innocent blood), kids get into trouble all the time, witnesses are massively unreliable, and gossiping is typical among teenagers (particularly girls, I'd say, but with social networking at the level it is that isn't wholly true).

The point of the seven deadly sins was not to say, "NEVER DO THESE THINGS." The point was to show thei ntricate flaws in human nature, and the need for moderation and belief in God. It's the go-to justification for why people who are good but don't believe in God don't get into Heaven; because everyone has sinned at some time. Let he cast the first stone, and so on.

My point with this is that trying to say someone is inherently evil for any of those traits, when they are basics of human nature, is mean. If you're using demons who are perpetualk liars, sadistic monsters, etc., then it's easier to get away with but if you want to try and say humans are evil for poor social constructs and bad self-control then you'll likely have a harder time.

The other problem you might run into is what I like to call the Sailor Moon effect, though it is by no means invented by Sailor Moon or exclusive; the issue is with having multiple antagonists, or 'generals.' What ends up happening, usually anyways, is that it becomes a big quest for each and every one of the generals/villains to be stopped, sort of like a monster-of-the-week on Scooby Doo. It makes the story feel very formulaic and repetitive, and can destroy a story.

That's not to say it can't be done well; it's something to watch for, though.

The sin thing is a little more difficult to pull off convincingly. I could probably point you towards famous heroes who embodied at least one of each trait.

It's a bit of a weird setup. In the simplest form I can explain, a group of extradimensional beings found a way to operate within our universe. They banded together to make an experiment they refer to as "The God Game" in which they whisked away a huge human population, wiped their memories, and placed them on a planet they reserved for them. These 7 are specifically trying to cause different effects on humanity by portraying themselves as living gods. Behind the scenes, they manipulate others directly in attempts to one-up eachother, which is where these traits will shine. These specific beings have a relevance to the world at hand, are worshipped as gods, and are well known to everyone, they will all be introduced, or at least mentioned quite early. There's also a few of them that don't exist within this circle, and are actively trying to bring it down.

This, of course, won't be revealed fully for quite some time. The story will take place through 3 characters who periodically are contacted by these extradimensional beings. Much of the story will be an internal power struggle between this circle of 7, accentuated by 3 separate individuals who are being manipulated by the outsiders.

It's heavily influenced by Homestuck, and is intentionally convoluted.

[Rotsab M. Hyolf]

False Dichotomy

It's a bit of a weird setup. In the simplest form I can explain, a group of extradimensional beings found a way to operate within our universe. They banded together to make an experiment they refer to as "The God Game" in which they whisked away a huge human population, wiped their memories, and placed them on a planet they reserved for them. These 7 are specifically trying to cause different effects on humanity by portraying themselves as living gods. Behind the scenes, they manipulate others directly in attempts to one-up eachother, which is where these traits will shine. These specific beings have a relevance to the world at hand, are worshipped as gods, and are well known to everyone, they will all be introduced, or at least mentioned quite early. There's also a few of them that don't exist within this circle, and are actively trying to bring it down.

This, of course, won't be revealed fully for quite some time. The story will take place through 3 characters who periodically are contacted by these extradimensional beings. Much of the story will be an internal power struggle between this circle of 7, accentuated by 3 separate individuals who are being manipulated by the outsiders.

It's heavily influenced by Homestuck, and is intentionally convoluted.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense then! Sounds set for the number. I do sort of question using those biblical sentences because, again, they're so human, but it's your story and you're not trying to imply humans are ULTIMATE EVIL ZOMG for them, so I can respect that.

The most obvious counter I can think of for pride is charm. I would argue most people who are charming are very self-confident. It would probably take the edge off of the arrogance, as well. I will say that ambition is probably something to look into philosophy-wise for this character, since confidence and pride aren't necessarily a bad trait unless it's to support an evil ideal. MLK being proud? Understandable. Hitler? Not so much.

Motivation -- as in, what they hope to accomplish/prove in this God Game, will probably directly correlate to their 'personality,' and how they mask their certain faults. Misguided is an easy way to build sympathy, and ignorant is an easy way to justify needless cruelty. By that same token, a drive for knowledge has also wrought a great deal of cruelty, and might work with shedding innocent blood or divising wicked plots.

Sorry I can't help you more, haha. Maybe try looking to the different cultures the entities try to represent themselves as Gods to, to find what that 'God' would have to excel in?

[love_myths]

is there a specific age limit?because there are certain ages at which one can find these characters plots prevelant. question

[DarknessofHeavenandDreams]

love_myths

is there a specific age limit?because there are certain ages at which one can find these characters plots prevelant. question

Not if it's written well.

[love_myths]

someone in 20s.they could be shown wealthy.everyone praises the person but the person is nonchalant at the praise-A proud look.
how about the parent of the upper person?knowing the person is proud.this parent(lady would be perfect)covers up all bits and ends the son accidently missed. -A lying tongue.
the father.he has a dangerous past.enjoys shedding blood.in order to cover the family reputation he doesnt kill humans but instead goes hunting animals-Hands that shed innocent blood.
an uncle behind the wealth of the family.he stays out of the picture but forces other people by just words into mischief -A heart that devises wicked plots.
the young daughter.she runs into the plot of hooking up with a guy manipulated by the uncle -Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
the guy -A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
the uncle-Him that soweth discord among brethren
if the storyline was supposed to be different,no related characters,too known plot...i am sorry.just my suggestion xp sorry for the grammer and spelling mistakes too

[Moral Gutpunch]

love_myths

someone in 20s.they could be shown wealthy.everyone praises the person but the person is nonchalant at the praise-A proud look..
how about the parent of the upper person?knowing the person is proud.this parent(lady would be perfect)covers up all bits and ends the son accidently missed. -A lying tongue.
the father.he has a dangerous past.enjoys shedding blood.in order to cover the family reputation he doesnt kill humans but instead goes hunting animals-Hands that shed innocent blood.
an uncle behind the wealth of the family.he stays out of the picture but forces other people by just words into mischief -A heart that devises wicked plots.
the young daughter.she runs into the plot of hooking up with a guy manipulated by the uncle -Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
the guy -A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
the uncle-Him that soweth discord among brethren
if the storyline was supposed to be different,no related characters,too known plot...i am sorry.just my suggestion xp sorry for the grammer and spelling mistakes too

i have no idea what you're trying to convey with this, or why you hate capitals and formatting.

A childrens book can be appreciated by an adult. A hunting manual can be appreciated by someone who doesn't hunt and feels it is outdated A religion-centered book can be appreciated by an atheist and vice-versa. If you write well, open-minded people will not only not be offended, but appreciate it, even if it's not their thing.

[False Dichotomy]

Rotsab M. Hyolf

False Dichotomy

It's a bit of a weird setup. In the simplest form I can explain, a group of extradimensional beings found a way to operate within our universe. They banded together to make an experiment they refer to as "The God Game" in which they whisked away a huge human population, wiped their memories, and placed them on a planet they reserved for them. These 7 are specifically trying to cause different effects on humanity by portraying themselves as living gods. Behind the scenes, they manipulate others directly in attempts to one-up eachother, which is where these traits will shine. These specific beings have a relevance to the world at hand, are worshipped as gods, and are well known to everyone, they will all be introduced, or at least mentioned quite early. There's also a few of them that don't exist within this circle, and are actively trying to bring it down.

This, of course, won't be revealed fully for quite some time. The story will take place through 3 characters who periodically are contacted by these extradimensional beings. Much of the story will be an internal power struggle between this circle of 7, accentuated by 3 separate individuals who are being manipulated by the outsiders.

It's heavily influenced by Homestuck, and is intentionally convoluted.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense then! Sounds set for the number. I do sort of question using those biblical sentences because, again, they're so human, but it's your story and you're not trying to imply humans are ULTIMATE EVIL ZOMG for them, so I can respect that.

The most obvious counter I can think of for pride is charm. I would argue most people who are charming are very self-confident. It would probably take the edge off of the arrogance, as well. I will say that ambition is probably something to look into philosophy-wise for this character, since confidence and pride aren't necessarily a bad trait unless it's to support an evil ideal. MLK being proud? Understandable. Hitler? Not so much.

Motivation -- as in, what they hope to accomplish/prove in this God Game, will probably directly correlate to their 'personality,' and how they mask their certain faults. Misguided is an easy way to build sympathy, and ignorant is an easy way to justify needless cruelty. By that same token, a drive for knowledge has also wrought a great deal of cruelty, and might work with shedding innocent blood or divising wicked plots.

Sorry I can't help you more, haha. Maybe try looking to the different cultures the entities try to represent themselves as Gods to, to find what that 'God' would have to excel in?

Those are interesting ideas. Thank you for them, I'll be sure to think about that for a while.

Oh, and I don't think I specified this, the beings are mortals, not too far from ourselves, the only difference is because of their existence in another dimension, they can perceive and act within lesser dimensions as if they were a book, or so.

[False Dichotomy]

love_myths

someone in 20s.they could be shown wealthy.everyone praises the person but the person is nonchalant at the praise-A proud look.
how about the parent of the upper person?knowing the person is proud.this parent(lady would be perfect)covers up all bits and ends the son accidently missed. -A lying tongue.
the father.he has a dangerous past.enjoys shedding blood.in order to cover the family reputation he doesnt kill humans but instead goes hunting animals-Hands that shed innocent blood.
an uncle behind the wealth of the family.he stays out of the picture but forces other people by just words into mischief -A heart that devises wicked plots.
the young daughter.she runs into the plot of hooking up with a guy manipulated by the uncle -Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
the guy -A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
the uncle-Him that soweth discord among brethren
if the storyline was supposed to be different,no related characters,too known plot...i am sorry.just my suggestion xp sorry for the grammer and spelling mistakes too

Thank you for the effort, but it won't really apply well. The premise is that a group of "people" found that they can trick lesser beings into thinking they are immortal gods, and their personalities upfront are all personas to make their stories more believable.

[Cogent Dream]

False Dichotomy

There's a story I'm writing, and lately I've had some dramatic shifts in how I want to structure the whole thing.

Essentially, for now, I'm running into a roadblock for the antagonists, so I would like some suggestions on how I could pull this off. These seven characters were going to be based off of the Seven Deadly Sins, but I find that to be a bit cliche, so I chose the actual biblical equivalent from Proverbs 6:16. In essence, each of these characters will be the embodiment of these attributes, but they hide it from others.

-A proud look.
-A lying tongue.
-Hands that shed innocent blood.
-A heart that devises wicked plots.
-Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
-A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
-Him that soweth discord among brethren.

What I need is not a character type that shows these at face value. What I need are suggestions on how characters that embody these values would act to hide them, or even justify them with their philosophy. These values are to be SUBTLE, but the driving factor for their persona. Their actions/personality will not immediately signify these things, but are rather there intentionally to mask them.

What I'm asking might be a bit vague, but let your imagination run wild, this is still in pretty early development and what goes on here will undoubtedly change some of the things I've already set in place.

So you want to know how a character would try to hide those sins?

That's tough because you're walking on the line between the sin being not strong enough or too obvious. For example, is a petty liar still "a lying tongue"? Or does it have to be to a criminal extent?

Personally, I think the story would be boring if it revolved around a few petty sins that everyone has anyway, so I would go with huge criminal activities. Murder is easy, just do a serial killer that no one expects and who is good at hiding his trail. Adultery is also easy, just have an unfaithful spouse who pretends to be a loving partner.

Really, you should be able to concoct a situation for each one without too much difficulty. The main obstacle is how serious you want each sin to be.

[False Dichotomy]

Cogent Dream

False Dichotomy

There's a story I'm writing, and lately I've had some dramatic shifts in how I want to structure the whole thing.

Essentially, for now, I'm running into a roadblock for the antagonists, so I would like some suggestions on how I could pull this off. These seven characters were going to be based off of the Seven Deadly Sins, but I find that to be a bit cliche, so I chose the actual biblical equivalent from Proverbs 6:16. In essence, each of these characters will be the embodiment of these attributes, but they hide it from others.

-A proud look.
-A lying tongue.
-Hands that shed innocent blood.
-A heart that devises wicked plots.
-Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
-A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
-Him that soweth discord among brethren.

What I need is not a character type that shows these at face value. What I need are suggestions on how characters that embody these values would act to hide them, or even justify them with their philosophy. These values are to be SUBTLE, but the driving factor for their persona. Their actions/personality will not immediately signify these things, but are rather there intentionally to mask them.

What I'm asking might be a bit vague, but let your imagination run wild, this is still in pretty early development and what goes on here will undoubtedly change some of the things I've already set in place.

So you want to know how a character would try to hide those sins?

That's tough because you're walking on the line between the sin being not strong enough or too obvious. For example, is a petty liar still "a lying tongue"? Or does it have to be to a criminal extent?

Personally, I think the story would be boring if it revolved around a few petty sins that everyone has anyway, so I would go with huge criminal activities. Murder is easy, just do a serial killer that no one expects and who is good at hiding his trail. Adultery is also easy, just have an unfaithful spouse who pretends to be a loving partner.

Really, you should be able to concoct a situation for each one without too much difficulty. The main obstacle is how serious you want each sin to be.

It doesn't revolve around these sins. These are a method I'm choosing to create personalities, and it's not the only source I'll be using. It is, however something I decided on in order to create a larger number of antagonists. Major characters will get plenty of spotlight, but it's the creation of minor characters that gets me. This will serve as a method of creating a larger cast, and I'll pick the ones who can be fleshed out the most to serve more important roles.