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Sailor Tin Nyanko's avatar

Magical Cat

Symorin
Sailor Tin Nyanko
Thank you for the water, internets, police, libraries, fire departements, and schools exclaim


I don't feel I deserve to be thanked for that, thank Socialism/Socialist thinkers as a whole for it. ^_^

I'm surprised you mention fire departments, a lot of people seem to forget that fire departments weren't always under "state control". Back in Rome, a senator got the brilliant idea of starting Rome's Biggest "Fire Fighting Company"... And demanding that victims of the fire pay him while their house was burning right beside them. If they couldn't pay him, he let the land burn then bought it at a paltry price.

Unfortunately, some numbskulls really do want to go back to that system.


" I shouldn't have to pay unless my house burns down."


Too many people are actually asking for anarchy and don't grasp that is what they are aimming for.
Sinivar's avatar

Super Genius

What an interesting idea for a thread!

Yay for broadening horizons and offering to teach others about your different viewpoints. Especially without being snappish about it like some folks tend to do in these kind of things.

I'd like learning more since, from what you've said so far, I'm liking the cut of your jib.

I guess I'll ask about what you brought up in your first post. (I'm a complete novice when it comes to politics, so I apologize in advance if I sound ignorant while asking questions. sweatdrop )

So what do you feel are the various pro's are of a larger government and regulated market and what is the difference between a 'Social Democrat' and the run of the mill Democrat?
Ginger Spice Isle's avatar

Obsessive Player

Canada is one of the few countries where SOME of it works. Think about this : many of your citizens come to the US for medical care because of quality and waiting lists. It's not that rosy. I will say your borders are better protected than ours. Entry is much harder, and much more monitored. But also, there is much less area to cover.
Maybe your military budget is far less than ours, also, but if you needed help whom would you call? "USbusters" like the rest of the world!!!!
Divine_Malevolence's avatar

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Sinivar
Especially without being snappish about it like some folks tend to do in these kind of things.
I like turtles.
K76's avatar

Familiar Phantom

How do you envision keeping the rich from exerting disproportional influence on the government? I.e. how do you keep the government from becoming a bunch of corrupt goons whose campaigns are funded mostly by large corporations.
K76's avatar

Familiar Phantom

Personally I don't think it's possible to keep the government from being hijacked and eventually forcing everyone into slavery and finally exterminating them.

As far as leftism I could perhaps go for something like Anarcho-Syndicalism but anything more centralized I am afraid of.
ZyuZyu's avatar

Greedy Millionaire

              Um, lolno.

IslandGinger50
Canada is one of the few countries where SOME of it works.


              I'm not getting it. By my counts, there are very few other countries doing it better than we are.

IslandGinger50
Think about this : many of your citizens come to the US for medical care because of quality and waiting lists. It's not that rosy.


              You're very misled here. Firstly, a very tiny fraction of a fraction of people who travel out of the country for medical care are doing so because they actually want to. A very large percentage of these people, however, have their entire expenses paid for by the government. Why are there people leaving in the first place? Admittedly, it's because we don't really have the beds to spare up here sometimes. This is especially the case in Toronto and sometimes Vancouver. However, the point is, if the government is paying for it anyway, what's the big deal? Not like you guys are using your ultra-expensive private hospital beds anyway, am I right? xD
              I will agree, however, that we should have enough hospitals to deal with our own patients ourselves, and to send our own citizens to another country to receive proper medical treatment is something of an embarrassment. I'd love to talk to Mr. Harper about his absolutely outrageous health cuts that are causing this problem in the first place, but letters from avid NDP supporters such as myself are usually simply thrown out due to their highly efficient CIMS system.

IslandGinger50
Entry is much harder, and much more monitored. But also, there is much less area to cover.


              That is completely false.
              Firstly, ummm... hello? Second largest country in the world here?
              Secondly, entry into Canada isn't hard.
              Hell, it couldn't be easier. Seeing as we have a huge aging population, immigrants are essential to the upkeep of our tax system, especially seeing as the burden is only looking like it's going to get heavier. Essentially, if you speak one of the official languages and can name a couple prime ministers and holidays, it's pretty much a breeze.
              It's hard to call our borders "protected", when the US and Canada share the world's longest undefended border, and our Arctic sovereignty and control over the Northwest Passage have been huge issues with not only the US but also Russia, the UK, Norway, Denmark, France and many more... I:
              Topping that off, the immigration system is a bit in shambles, as thousands of people (especially from Latin America and some parts of Asia) exploit the Visa-free policy Canada has towards their countries as well as the hundreds of refugee programs that the government funds.

              So I have literally no idea who or what gave you the impression that entry was a big deal. Hell, if it weren't for the cold scaring most people away, we'd be the exact same immigration basket case as the US, the UK and France.

IslandGinger50
Maybe your military budget is far less than ours, also, but if you needed help whom would you call? "USbusters" like the rest of the world!!!!


              Damn straight. Canada is the U.S.'s largest trading partner. If we're in trouble, so are you. So why on earth should we contribute hundreds of billions of dollars to help defend the continent when you guys are doing so by yourselves? Besides, exactly who do we need to defend ourselves from again?
Symorin's avatar

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Sinivar
What an interesting idea for a thread!

Yay for broadening horizons and offering to teach others about your different viewpoints. Especially without being snappish about it like some folks tend to do in these kind of things.

I'd like learning more since, from what you've said so far, I'm liking the cut of your jib.

I guess I'll ask about what you brought up in your first post. (I'm a complete novice when it comes to politics, so I apologize in advance if I sound ignorant while asking questions. sweatdrop )

So what do you feel are the various pro's are of a larger government and regulated market and what is the difference between a 'Social Democrat' and the run of the mill Democrat?


Thanks! I'm always happy to teach people about Social Democracy! ^_^

I find, that people in America just have some sort of fear towards "big government", they're hardly willing to trust it despite all the good it's done for them. I theorize that this is the result of the very... Patriotic education a lot of people are given about the revolutionary war. In fact, this hatred or fear of the big government is so large, that some people honestly seem to ignore every good thing the government's done for them.

For example, when Obama was attempting to pass what's now known as "obamacare" there were people protesting with signs literally reading "Keep Government Out of My Medicare", which is like saying "Keep Meat Out of My Hamburger".

Government, when passing bills to "appease" socialists ( a trend started by Otto von Bismark, who many consider to be the "founder" of germany ) has done a lot of good for the people. It passed the clean food and drug act which helped fix the horrid conditions in American meat factories (we're talking things like rancid meat being sold as "fresh" and bugs crawling around the factory floor), it created minimum wage, a "retirement age", and all sorts of other things that make life livable.

But, I'm sure just pointing to good things government intervention has done isn't proof enough, is it? Well let me give you an example of Social Democracy in action.

The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland are all some of the more "socialist" countries in europe. Sweden's been referred to as the "haven for Social Democracy". Those countries are in the top ten for countries with the happiest citizens (with most of them in the top five.) College there is completely free, healthcare is provided by the government and free, the gap between the rich and the rest of the country is small, and they enjoy great public transportation and use of green energy.

That country gets to enjoy free healthcare and education, it hasn't torn itself up in civil war, the people there aren't starving, and they're genuinely happier and healthier then we are. Businesses are allowed to be created, and actually do quite well thanks to both smarter, more educated employees (plus government handled healthcare means they can worry a lot less about providing insurance to recruit people) and the fact they can't just throw money at the government and care about their business as little as possible. They have to honestly compete to succeed. Consumers are educated as well, they wont fall prey to scams as easily as before, and they'll know when someone is trying to play the system.
Symorin's avatar

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K76
How do you envision keeping the rich from exerting disproportional influence on the government? I.e. how do you keep the government from becoming a bunch of corrupt goons whose campaigns are funded mostly by large corporations.


For one, we'd outlaw bribery "lobbying" and Super PACs. Set a limit on the amount of funding any one person can give. Ban corporations and religious groups from funding certain candidates. And (for the more... Extreme voter reform) get rid of the electoral college and replace it by majority vote, along with getting rid of this "first past the post" style voting to the alternative vote.

What does that mean? Well not only would elections have to be done by the majority (which means that your vote wont be useless if you're, say, a Democrat in texas) but instead of just voting for a single candidate and having that be your vote, you'd rank candidates from most favorite to least favorite (which means only your favorites, you don't vote for candidates you just don't like).

Say, for example, in this election you like Gary Johnson, but seeing as he's a third party you don't think he'll win. Instead of "throwing your vote away" you can list him as your favorite, then maybe another third party as your second favorite, and Mitt Romney as your third favorite.

Here's a good video explaining the alternative vote.



What that means is, not only would third parties have a chance to grow, but "corporate bought candidates" will actually have to work to serve the people, since they're no longer "one of only two electable parties and slightly better (in your opinion) then the other party".

Granted, that's just how I'd solve the issue of corporate corruption, there are some other more creative proposals by various different Social Democrat groups.
Sailor Tin Nyanko's avatar

Magical Cat

Symorin
Sinivar
What an interesting idea for a thread!

Yay for broadening horizons and offering to teach others about your different viewpoints. Especially without being snappish about it like some folks tend to do in these kind of things.

I'd like learning more since, from what you've said so far, I'm liking the cut of your jib.

I guess I'll ask about what you brought up in your first post. (I'm a complete novice when it comes to politics, so I apologize in advance if I sound ignorant while asking questions. sweatdrop )

So what do you feel are the various pro's are of a larger government and regulated market and what is the difference between a 'Social Democrat' and the run of the mill Democrat?


Thanks! I'm always happy to teach people about Social Democracy! ^_^

I find, that people in America just have some sort of fear towards "big government", they're hardly willing to trust it despite all the good it's done for them. I theorize that this is the result of the very... Patriotic education a lot of people are given about the revolutionary war. In fact, this hatred or fear of the big government is so large, that some people honestly seem to ignore every good thing the government's done for them.

For example, when Obama was attempting to pass what's now known as "obamacare" there were people protesting with signs literally reading "Keep Government Out of My Medicare", which is like saying "Keep Meat Out of My Hamburger".

Government, when passing bills to "appease" socialists ( a trend started by Otto von Bismark, who many consider to be the "founder" of germany ) has done a lot of good for the people. It passed the clean food and drug act which helped fix the horrid conditions in American meat factories (we're talking things like rancid meat being sold as "fresh" and bugs crawling around the factory floor), it created minimum wage, a "retirement age", and all sorts of other things that make life livable.

But, I'm sure just pointing to good things government intervention has done isn't proof enough, is it? Well let me give you an example of Social Democracy in action.

The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Switzerland are all some of the more "socialist" countries in europe. Sweden's been referred to as the "haven for Social Democracy". Those countries are in the top ten for countries with the happiest citizens (with most of them in the top five.) College there is completely free, healthcare is provided by the government and free, the gap between the rich and the rest of the country is small, and they enjoy great public transportation and use of green energy.

That country gets to enjoy free healthcare and education, it hasn't torn itself up in civil war, the people there aren't starving, and they're genuinely happier and healthier then we are.

Do you know the years those countries switched to certain things like their current Health Care system?

I forget where I found that stuff before.


I recognize those countries from beating us on list like Average Life Expectancy ( some other list... I forget which ones).
Ginger Spice Isle's avatar

Obsessive Player

I have known several US citizens that wanted to emigrate to Canada and spent years jumping through hoops to get a Visa. Don't have time right now to enumerate the stories,
And, I have known several Canadians that prefer to live most of tje year in the US. So, .....

And, I'm glad you'll let us bear the high military costs !!! Good for you!!!
And, not enough hospitals ? Gee, I thought ypu said it's all provided!!! But, you get on a list and wait I sure don't !!
Ginger Spice Isle's avatar

Obsessive Player

Sailor Tin Nyanko
Symorin
Sinivar
What an interesting idea for a thread!

Yay for broadening horizons and offering to teach others about your different viewpoints. Especially without being snappish about it like some folks tend to do in these kind of things.

I'd like learning more since, from what you've said so far, I'm liking the cut of your jib.

I guess I'll ask about what you brought up in your first post. (I'm a complete novice when it comes to politics, so I apologize in advance if I sound ignorant while asking questions. sweatdrop )

So what do you feel are the various pro's are of a larger government and regulated market and what is the difference between a 'Social Democrat' and the run of the mill Democrat?


Thanks! I'm always happy to teach people about Social Democracy! ^_^

I find, that people in America just have some sort of fear towards "big government", they're hardly willing to trust it despite all the good it's done for them. I theorize that this is the result of the very... Patriotic education a lot of people are given about the revolutionary war. In fact, this hatred or fear of the big government is so large, that some people honestly seem to ignore every good thing the government's done for them.

For example, when Obama was attempting to pass what's now known as "obamacare" there were people protesting with signs literally reading "Keep Government Out of My Medicare", which is like saying "Keep Meat Out of My Hamburger".

Government, when passing bills to "appease" socialists ( a trend started by Otto von Bismark, who many consider to be the "founder" of germany ) has done a lot of good for the people. It passed the clean food and drug act which helped fix the horrid conditions in American meat factories (we're talking things like rancid meat being sold as "fresh" and bugs crawling around the factory floor), it created minimum wage, a "retirement age", and all sorts of other things that make life livable.

But, I'm sure just pointing to good things government intervention has done isn't proof enough, is it? Well let me give you an example of Social Democracy in action.

The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Switzerland are all some of the more "socialist" countries in europe. Sweden's been referred to as the "haven for Social Democracy". Those countries are in the top ten for countries with the happiest citizens (with most of them in the top five.) College there is completely free, healthcare is provided by the government and free, the gap between the rich and the rest of the country is small, and they enjoy great public transportation and use of green energy.

That country gets to enjoy free healthcare and education, it hasn't torn itself up in civil war, the people there aren't starving, and they're genuinely happier and healthier then we are.

Do you know the years those countries switched to certain things like their current Health Care system?

I forget where I found that stuff before.


I recognize those countries from beating us on list like Average Life Expectancy ( some other list... I forget which ones).

What's thr population of each country ? Compare it to the US. Most match a state population here. BIG difference !!! We do have states, by the way, that provide free college for residents -- CA is one!!! And, what is its finacial condition?
Sailor Tin Nyanko's avatar

Magical Cat

IslandGinger50
Sailor Tin Nyanko
Symorin
Sinivar
What an interesting idea for a thread!

Yay for broadening horizons and offering to teach others about your different viewpoints. Especially without being snappish about it like some folks tend to do in these kind of things.

I'd like learning more since, from what you've said so far, I'm liking the cut of your jib.

I guess I'll ask about what you brought up in your first post. (I'm a complete novice when it comes to politics, so I apologize in advance if I sound ignorant while asking questions. sweatdrop )

So what do you feel are the various pro's are of a larger government and regulated market and what is the difference between a 'Social Democrat' and the run of the mill Democrat?


Thanks! I'm always happy to teach people about Social Democracy! ^_^

I find, that people in America just have some sort of fear towards "big government", they're hardly willing to trust it despite all the good it's done for them. I theorize that this is the result of the very... Patriotic education a lot of people are given about the revolutionary war. In fact, this hatred or fear of the big government is so large, that some people honestly seem to ignore every good thing the government's done for them.

For example, when Obama was attempting to pass what's now known as "obamacare" there were people protesting with signs literally reading "Keep Government Out of My Medicare", which is like saying "Keep Meat Out of My Hamburger".

Government, when passing bills to "appease" socialists ( a trend started by Otto von Bismark, who many consider to be the "founder" of germany ) has done a lot of good for the people. It passed the clean food and drug act which helped fix the horrid conditions in American meat factories (we're talking things like rancid meat being sold as "fresh" and bugs crawling around the factory floor), it created minimum wage, a "retirement age", and all sorts of other things that make life livable.

But, I'm sure just pointing to good things government intervention has done isn't proof enough, is it? Well let me give you an example of Social Democracy in action.

The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Switzerland are all some of the more "socialist" countries in europe. Sweden's been referred to as the "haven for Social Democracy". Those countries are in the top ten for countries with the happiest citizens (with most of them in the top five.) College there is completely free, healthcare is provided by the government and free, the gap between the rich and the rest of the country is small, and they enjoy great public transportation and use of green energy.

That country gets to enjoy free healthcare and education, it hasn't torn itself up in civil war, the people there aren't starving, and they're genuinely happier and healthier then we are.

Do you know the years those countries switched to certain things like their current Health Care system?

I forget where I found that stuff before.


I recognize those countries from beating us on list like Average Life Expectancy ( some other list... I forget which ones).

What's thr population of each country ? Compare it to the US. Most match a state population here. BIG difference !!! We do have states, by the way, that provide free college for residents -- CA is one!!! And, what is its finacial condition?

It's not total of people to die in 2005 versus total number of people to die in 2005. It's not that simple.

It's compared to a unit.

I'm too tired to explain math x_x

It's usually per 1,000 citizens.

So the number of people to die is devided by the same number that the number of citizens needs to be devided by to arrive at 1,000.


You'd think the life expectancy of Japan would be nose diving with the number of people shrinking but the Life Expectency there is usually in the 80's while the life expectency here was 16 years shorter last time I looked up statistics.

Japan started a "Universal Health Care" like system in the 1940's because of the war. They completed and revamped parts of it in the 1960's and 1970's. That's why I am curious when these things were started in those countries in Europe. xp I'd like to compare the life expectancy and some other statistics against the number of years certain things have been available.


... and I am so tired I can't even remember what you asked every time I try to my brain gives up,.. but it let me ramble about this. Probably not helpful my mom is trying to eat items that are not edible while asleep.
Ginger Spice Isle's avatar

Obsessive Player

I wasn't speaking of Life expetancy.
I was speaking to the Socialistic system as it relates to the total population of those countries. And, the overall diversity of their peoplis/ Not comparable to the "Melting Pot" that the US is.
Sailor Tin Nyanko's avatar

Magical Cat

IslandGinger50
I wasn't speaking of Life expetancy.
I was speaking to the Socialistic system as it relates to the total population of those countries. And, the overall diversity of their peoplis/ Not comparable to the "Melting Pot" that the US is.

*types like a dozen Paragraphs but who wants to read that*

Well,.. Japan was a Melting Pot before Christopher Columbus ( or whatever his real name is) was born.

It's had Dozens of peoples mixed into it.


The people you see,.. the people that are "Japanese" do not actually look like the Native Japanese. But there are nearly no Native Japanese left. A few people count as Native Japanese,.. Japan's main islands had this stuff start posibly 12,000 years ago. 3nodding


They have European and parts around Russia mixed in. They have Indian ( Country India) and a touch of Middle Eastern mixed in. They have alot of Islands mixed in,.. some times people that were limited to the Islands that make up Japan for thousands of years. Of course they have Chinese, Tibitan, Mongolian, Korean, and a bunch of other countries in Asia mixed in.


In reality they have very little left of the Native Japanese and some people believe under 1% of children born this year will have a detectible amount of Native Japanese in their genetics ( enough markers).


Right now if you go to a shopping district you will likely see French, English, Korean, and Japanese writting around you.


Just by watching a Japanese person walk by, people in certain fields can identify where their ancesters were in the last hundred and what remnents they may have from Europe, Russia, and certain places in Asia.

http://youtu.be/7lX0OyifF2Q

Both Skeletol and Muscular defects from either people they came from or mismatched bends and lengths from different genetics.

CIA says:

Total Area: 377,915 sq km
Population: 127,368,088 (July 2012 est.)
GDP: $4.497 trillion (2011 est.)

Imma sleep... I kept this from being 10+ Paragraphs... I think. xp They don't look at Ethic or Racial in their Citizens. Just you are a Citizen or you are becoming a Citizens.. only two Categories. They have programs that pay immigrants to look for housing and the first couple years... it's helpped them get multi lingual teachers and employees. A few times they had programs where they paid illegal immigrants for a flight out and a couple months living expences in their country. It worked out GREAT! Their government is insane but that would take paragraphs to cover,.. they combined too many types of governments.

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