Fallacious Twilight Arguments

Polls are for whoring!

Yes	75.5%	[ 139 ]
Yes	24.5%	[ 45 ]
Total Votes:			[ 184 ]

[Bunnochist]

Ooo Ooo my turn!!

The Twihards:
1. "ur just jeluz of Edwurd n Jakob!"
-- How exactly am I, a female, jealous of two fictional male characters? But at that point the conversation turns to me just being a dumb b***h.

2. "you didn't understand it and have to read it again"
-- No, I understood it quite perfectly because there was no plot or interesting parts to follow.

3. "you hate it because its popular"
-- Oh how clever of them, how ever did they figure that out? Well if I hate all things popular I need to get rid of all my anime, video games, Harry Potter, vampire, etc etc memorabilia.

4. "its tru luv!"
-- No.. no, it's really not. It's about lust. And if my boyfriend ever treated me the way Edward or Jacob treated Bella, I'd castrate him. Likewise, if I ever acted like Bella, I'd request that my boyfriend slap me silly.

5. "its hard to write a book! u dont write!"
-- ...I got poetry published throughout high school.. I think that counts for at least something. o_O

6. "it hurts mah wee feelings when people say something bad about it"
-- That's just childish..

[Marihogany]

Twihards:

"Th book ish sooooo gud, yur jst jelly!"
1. Excuse me, you seem to have failed to use your keyboard in the proper manner. May I advise you that smashing fingers on your keyboard does not mean it is proper english. (sorry, I'm crazy about proper grammar sometimes.)

2. Jelly? I am not a gelatinous substance made out of boiled bones...last time I checked. Anyway, I am not 'jealous' of Stephanie Meyer. I sort of pity her in a way, since she wrote this saga and there's a ton of flaming. I can imagine her getting thousands of hate emails per day. Some of these people threaten others in extremely inhumane ways...

3. Sorry, I'm entitled to my own opinion, no need to flame on me.

"BELLA IS SO PRETTAY"

1. Excuse me, but pretty is spelled with an 'e', just thought you'd know. ^^"

2. I actually reread the book solely to find out just what Bella looked like. After a week of reading this, guess what? It barely describes her. That's right. Nothing. Zip.

3. Most people only know what Bella 'looks like' as a result of the movie, where an actress is able to 'portray' her. Honestly, I think either Stephanie should have described her better (more talk about that later) or that's just how Stephanie thought Bella would have looked like, just failed to explain in the book.

"Okay, if you hate em, that must mean you read her books! You're being a hypocrite!"
1. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PROPER GRAMMAR!

2. Actually, I only know this since I read the first book when it came out and a few friends were going crazy about it. (Most have switched sides now.) So I really don't know much about the entire story.

"TEAM JACOB OR TEAM EDWARDDDDDD?"

1. Um...what? I didn't know they were segregating wolves and vampires now in the series.

2. Strangely enough, I flipped through a 'non-fiction book' on vampires just recently. Turns out it said this: "A vampire can change into any form it wishes. It can even transform into air, which is why when a vampire dies, you must not let any bugs that escape from the corpse live, as it will resurrect." It also said this. "A vampire's two favorite forms are a bat and a wolf." ...Um...sorry Stephanie, looks like vampires have turned against themselves somewhat. (Okay okay, I get that Jacob is "A WERWULF ADURRRRRR", just wanted to put it out there.)

"Ur such a h8r!"

1. ....'h8r'? What?

"BELLA AND EDWARD ARE SO PURFACT AND UR JUST SINGLE"

1. Yes, I am single, so what? It doesn't make any difference in who I am and my personality.

2. I'm sorry, but it's really not about true love. It's just about a girl who moves who meets some guy that likes how she smells. (literally, there's a line in the first book that says this)

3. If I did have a boyfriend, no way in hell would I act like Bella! I haven't sunk to her level! Nor do I ever want to! If my boyfriend was also acting like Edward, no doubt about it, I would slap him. It just...ugh.

"how cud u h8 it? go kil urself"

1. It's a book, for pete's sake! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I don't see it from the same point of view as you!

2. Seriously. Why? Why would I lose my life for something trivial like this? Honestly...I think this is more of a society problem. Why is death taken so lightly now? Every time someone doesn't see things another sees fit, this is what I hear. 'Go die.' 'Go die.' 'Go die.' You can disagree with me, but this is just how I see it.

Twihaters:

"TWILIGHT IS F**KING GAYYYYY"

1. Gay means two things, one is joyous and happy, the other being attracted to the same gender. Both which do not apply to the book, since I don't see a lot of happiness and joy, and a book does not have a gender, nor does it have the ability to love something.

2. Gay is not an insult. Look at the definitions I put up there or search on the internet or something. Being attracted to another gender is not a bad thing! Nor is being happy.

"Edward is a sparkling fairy. WE MUST BURN HIM."

1. Edward Cullen is not a real person, nor do I wish him to ever be real. The movie (I haven't watched it) probably used graphics to make him 'sparkle', if you look into animating and all (which I have) you'll know what I mean.

"TWILIGHT SUCKS"

1. Agreed, but you don't really have any reasoning. Until you have that reasoning, I can't quite talk to you further.

Anyway, I have a question (joke) of my own.

I have here this twilight book. Should I burn it, recycle it, or read it to my future children when they are bad?

(please understand that was a joke...)

Okay, so going back to the thing about Bella's description.

Watch this. Or...read this.
Written form of the video
It'll be a lot easier than me yelling at you for who knows how long.

[Mage Luna]

NightfallDuet

Mage Luna

butthurting fangirl who just found reasoning with vampires

Don't b meen to stephanie meyer, she workd hard, how would you feel if someon insulted ur hard work!!!!!!!!!!

Ironically, Dana puts more effort into looking at Meyer's sentences then Meyer did when she supposedly reread her books fifty or one hundred times (I forgot what Belethiel said she said in the Illustrated Guide discussion).

Heh, it was about 150 or so, but it doesn't really matter. The woman still doesn't know how to edit her stuff.

Dana does a lot of lulz when she does take Twilight apart. It's awesome. I haven't been there in awhile to see what she's done with Eclipse (?), but I'll look at it later.

Sometimes I wonder what we would have read if she just made one big book like Forever Dawn would have been. O_o *scared to find out*

Too true, as Reasoning with Vampires will tell you.

I think Dana is still finishing New Moon.

She answered that on her FAQ. Apparently Laurent and Irina would live (as a couple, naturally), Victoria would have Riley report BabySue to the Volturi for her instead of make an army for her, Victoria would be killed by wolves, and Jacob would imprint on BabySue a few months later. That's all I remember. Check her BD FAQ if you're curious.

[Destined Savior]

@Mage: Well, I've read the FAQ, but I'm just saying I'm scared to find out what OTHER facts she should have given us besides the stuff on her site.

They all seem just the "basics" of what Forever Freaky Dawn would have been.

If I was writing FD, I would probably have taken out the idea of imprinting. Forcing a mate is not a legitimate reason for love or anything. It's just stupid and disgusting.

And this answer makes me barf:

Quote:

Why the name Renesmee?

Well, I couldn't call her Jennifer or Ashley. What do you name the most unique baby in the world? I looked through a lot of baby name websites. Eventually I realized that there was no human name that was going to work for me, so I surrendered to necessity and made up my own. I don't approve of such shenanigans in real life, I don't even believe in getting creative with spellings for real kids! But this was fantasy, and no human name fit, so I did the best I could. I named Renesmee so long ago—Fall 2003—that the name now sounds really natural to me. It wasn't until people started mentioning it that I remembered, "Oh, yeah, it is a weird name, isn't it?"

Just...GAH!

[Bunnochist]

NightfallDuet

@Mage: Well, I've read the FAQ, but I'm just saying I'm scared to find out what OTHER facts she should have given us besides the stuff on her site.

They all seem just the "basics" of what Forever Freaky Dawn would have been.

If I was writing FD, I would probably have taken out the idea of imprinting. Forcing a mate is not a legitimate reason for love or anything. It's just stupid and disgusting.

And this answer makes me barf:

Quote:

Why the name Renesmee?

Well, I couldn't call her Jennifer or Ashley. What do you name the most unique baby in the world? I looked through a lot of baby name websites. Eventually I realized that there was no human name that was going to work for me, so I surrendered to necessity and made up my own. I don't approve of such shenanigans in real life, I don't even believe in getting creative with spellings for real kids! But this was fantasy, and no human name fit, so I did the best I could. I named Renesmee so long ago—Fall 2003—that the name now sounds really natural to me. It wasn't until people started mentioning it that I remembered, "Oh, yeah, it is a weird name, isn't it?"

Just...GAH!

I'm sorry.. but am I the only one facedesking repeatedly at the amount of idiocy and hypocrisy in those statements?! For the love of all the gods and goddesses, this woman needs to have her mouth sewn shut and then welded over with a metal sheet! Why has nature not killed her off yet?! Someone feed this b***h non-stop quarter pounders so she dies faster.. please!!

Now she has revealed just how delusional she is by actually saying that no human name would work for her. Um.. she does realize she's not the first author to make a name for herself. And Carlisle.. Laurent.. oh yes, those are ssoooo common. ~Jerk off motion~ Furthermore, combining two human names to make one name isn't uncommon or special. Yet again you didn't break any creative barriers Meyer. You followed normalcy, you are now in the negative for originality and creativity points. And that still leaves her with HUMAN NAMES!! Beyond that, how is Nessie the most unique baby in the world when she's not the only one of her kind? If there's more than one, than obviously she isn't the most unique baby in the world. Uh ddeeerrrppp.

Oh yes, I can so easily believe this b***h doesn't believe in the 'shenanigans' of making up anything. Really, Meyer, really?! Yet you're ssooo proud of the abnormal spelling of our name! Contradictory heffer! You put all Stephanies to shame.. we demand you change your name!! >:O

...I'm still trying to get over the fact she has this thing about referring to 'human' names. I'm sorry, did I miss the publishing of the Baby Ghoulie Name book? Don't people give animals regular names? What the ******** defines a 'human' name?

And lastly.. how did she name Reneesme when she only had the Twilight portion of the series written and thought out in 2003? It's pretty plain and obvious by the lack of plot and errors in the books and how quickly she shat them out due to 'pressure' she didn't put any planning into anything.

I wish I could establish a legitimate Fail of a Lifetime award... I'd award it to her year after year until she died. /endrage

[Dr Murdoc Niccals]

Marihogany

PANTS!!!! That name fits her so much better. Even she thinks of herself as a thing in places.

[Mage Luna]

@Requiem and Nightfall
First of all, I feel horrible for all Jennifers and Ashleys who read that, that must suck for them if they read that.

@Requiem
But Meyer did do something creative with that. She combined two rare names into a portmanteau that doesn't sound natural, or like the names she used, and is impossible to figure out how to spell. Wait, that's not creative, that's idiotic? My bad...

That "human name" thing should go on the list of questions that people should ask Meyer but can't because she'd pretend to not understand and have you removed from her presence.

Supposedly after she wrote the first draft, she wrote little epilogues because she didn't feel her character's adventures were over. BabySue was born in one.

@Nightfall
The only details she gives are how pretty Edward is, so of course it'd just be the basics.

If I was writing the series I'd take that concept out back, murder it, light it on fire, put the ashes in an urn, blow up the urn, and bury any ashes I could find.

What annoyed me the most was if you look through all her FAQs, twice she mentions how she makes her characters.

BD FAQ

I don't know who Embry's father is. I'm aware that this lack of knowledge is annoying to some people. I'm sorry that I haven't been able to explain myself in more detail—that's one of the drawbacks of interviews. You don't know what you will be asked, you don't have much time to come up with an answer, and if you give an answer that is too long, they cut it down into a form that doesn't make sense. So you have to think on your feet and speak in sound bites. I'm not great at either.

I'm going to try to explain what it means when I say that I don't know something, or that a character hasn't revealed some part of himself to me. Those statements are both shorthand answers for a long and complicated explanation that doesn't work for a sound bite or a stage presentation. No two people write the same way, so I don't know if this will make sense to anyone else.

When I write a story, I start out with infinite possibilities. As I describe any character or plot point, I make those characteristics finite. For example, once I decide Bella is a brunette, all of her blonde and redhead possibilities disappear. Once I decide Bella lives in Washington, all the other places she might have lived are gone. There's this huge universe of options that I slowly whittle down into a more focused reality. Until I need to know a certain fact about the character, all the possibilities stay open out there in that universe of possibilities. If I set something in concrete prematurely, it could be a stumbling block later, so I try to keep an open mind about details until they become necessary to the story. If I explore a character too early, that can lock me into a situation that might be difficult to work with later.

So, I haven't explored the three main options for Embry's father this deeply yet. Someday, if it becomes necessary to a story, I'll comb through each character, look at his history and his present, and see which option makes the most sense. I'll more fully sketch out the internal workings of Billy, Quil Sr., and Samuel Sr. and see whose character supports this backstory best. That's what I mean when I say that the characters haven't told me yet. I haven't dug into them deeply enough to see if this information rings true with who the character is.

Someday, if I continue with the Twilight universe, maybe it will become necessary for me to know who Embry's dad is. I'm not to that point, and I don't want to just give a glib, "Oh it's ___________" kind of answer, because I might regret it later.

tips for writers in Twilight FAQ

My focus is the characters--that's the part of the story that is most important to me. I feel the best way to write believable characters is to really believe in them yourself. When you hear a song on the radio, you should know how your character feels about it--which songs your character would relate to, which songs she hates. Hear the conversations that your characters would have when they're not doing anything exciting; let them talk in your head, get to know them. Know their favorite colors and their opinions on current events, their birthdays and their flaws. None of this goes in the book, it's just to help you get a rounded feel to them.

She either shameless contradicted herself, or believes that things that don't go into the book, and won't have much of an affect on the books are more important than backstory, regardless if the character knows it. Let that sink in a little.

[Marihogany]

Dr Murdoc Niccals

Marihogany

PANTS!!!! That name fits her so much better. Even she thinks of herself as a thing in places.

Or Lego Block, for that matter.
My poor friends, several are named Isabella.

[TheQuietRiversRage]

Marihogany

Dr Murdoc Niccals

Marihogany

PANTS!!!! That name fits her so much better. Even she thinks of herself as a thing in places.

Or Lego Block, for that matter.
My poor friends, several are named Isabella.

Or Blase. It's the fusion of "Blank" and "Slate." Y'know, like the spawn's mother. And it's as creative as Renesmee.

[Belethiel]

Mage Luna

@Requiem and Nightfall
First of all, I feel horrible for all Jennifers and Ashleys who read that, that must suck for them if they read that.

@Requiem
But Meyer did do something creative with that. She combined two rare names into a portmanteau that doesn't sound natural, or like the names she used, and is impossible to figure out how to spell. Wait, that's not creative, that's idiotic? My bad...

That "human name" thing should go on the list of questions that people should ask Meyer but can't because she'd pretend to not understand and have you removed from her presence.

Supposedly after she wrote the first draft, she wrote little epilogues because she didn't feel her character's adventures were over. BabySue was born in one.

@Nightfall
The only details she gives are how pretty Edward is, so of course it'd just be the basics.

If I was writing the series I'd take that concept out back, murder it, light it on fire, put the ashes in an urn, blow up the urn, and bury any ashes I could find.

What annoyed me the most was if you look through all her FAQs, twice she mentions how she makes her characters.

BD FAQ

I don't know who Embry's father is. I'm aware that this lack of knowledge is annoying to some people. I'm sorry that I haven't been able to explain myself in more detail—that's one of the drawbacks of interviews. You don't know what you will be asked, you don't have much time to come up with an answer, and if you give an answer that is too long, they cut it down into a form that doesn't make sense. So you have to think on your feet and speak in sound bites. I'm not great at either.

I'm going to try to explain what it means when I say that I don't know something, or that a character hasn't revealed some part of himself to me. Those statements are both shorthand answers for a long and complicated explanation that doesn't work for a sound bite or a stage presentation. No two people write the same way, so I don't know if this will make sense to anyone else.

When I write a story, I start out with infinite possibilities. As I describe any character or plot point, I make those characteristics finite. For example, once I decide Bella is a brunette, all of her blonde and redhead possibilities disappear. Once I decide Bella lives in Washington, all the other places she might have lived are gone. There's this huge universe of options that I slowly whittle down into a more focused reality. Until I need to know a certain fact about the character, all the possibilities stay open out there in that universe of possibilities. If I set something in concrete prematurely, it could be a stumbling block later, so I try to keep an open mind about details until they become necessary to the story. If I explore a character too early, that can lock me into a situation that might be difficult to work with later.

So, I haven't explored the three main options for Embry's father this deeply yet. Someday, if it becomes necessary to a story, I'll comb through each character, look at his history and his present, and see which option makes the most sense. I'll more fully sketch out the internal workings of Billy, Quil Sr., and Samuel Sr. and see whose character supports this backstory best. That's what I mean when I say that the characters haven't told me yet. I haven't dug into them deeply enough to see if this information rings true with who the character is.

Someday, if I continue with the Twilight universe, maybe it will become necessary for me to know who Embry's dad is. I'm not to that point, and I don't want to just give a glib, "Oh it's ___________" kind of answer, because I might regret it later.

tips for writers in Twilight FAQ

My focus is the characters--that's the part of the story that is most important to me. I feel the best way to write believable characters is to really believe in them yourself. When you hear a song on the radio, you should know how your character feels about it--which songs your character would relate to, which songs she hates. Hear the conversations that your characters would have when they're not doing anything exciting; let them talk in your head, get to know them. Know their favorite colors and their opinions on current events, their birthdays and their flaws. None of this goes in the book, it's just to help you get a rounded feel to them.

She either shameless contradicted herself, or believes that things that don't go into the book, and won't have much of an affect on the books are more important than backstory, regardless if the character knows it. Let that sink in a little.

I laughed my arse off when she said "flaws". b***h, your characters don't have flaws!

And seriously? Infinate possibilities? SHe makes character creation sound more laborious than it has to be! The people I write about spring from my subconsious seemingly at random, then I flesh them out when I write a rough draft, or fill them in gradually and keep things based on their character profile in a role play. :/ I find my best ones are random imaginairy springings, they're not some block I whittle down. Though, slow evoulution does work for me in role plays and longer stories... still, I like the characters generated by my brain more.

Meyer's characters aren't whittled down enough. They're too extraordinairy.

I've never had characters talk to me in my head... that's just dumb. I imagine them in situations, that's what I do. I imagine them if one of them died and the emotions the other would experience, if one of them had a child, if they got injured, or simply fighting in a battle. The only thing I hear is the cogs turning in my brain when I write, and I think that's how it should be. One must be in control of thier own writing for it to make sense. I know this, because I used to lack control myself.

[Marihogany]

TheQuietRiversRage

Marihogany

Dr Murdoc Niccals

Marihogany

PANTS!!!! That name fits her so much better. Even she thinks of herself as a thing in places.

Or Lego Block, for that matter.
My poor friends, several are named Isabella.

Or Blase. It's the fusion of "Blank" and "Slate." Y'know, like the spawn's mother. And it's as creative as Renesmee.

...I LOVE YOU.
Mostly because of the name, but also because you're dressed as Kanji Tatsumi.

...but mostly the name.
Still, it kind of sounds more like Blaze, which is a name that sounds a lot more epic than this character really is.
How about Slank? (Currently failing to produce a wonderfully creative name for someone as uncreative as that girl.)

[TheQuietRiversRage]

Marihogany

TheQuietRiversRage

Marihogany

Dr Murdoc Niccals

Marihogany

PANTS!!!! That name fits her so much better. Even she thinks of herself as a thing in places.

Or Lego Block, for that matter.
My poor friends, several are named Isabella.

Or Blase. It's the fusion of "Blank" and "Slate." Y'know, like the spawn's mother. And it's as creative as Renesmee.

...I LOVE YOU.
Mostly because of the name, but also because you're dressed as Kanji Tatsumi.

...but mostly the name.
Still, it kind of sounds more like Blaze, which is a name that sounds a lot more epic than this character really is.
How about Slank? (Currently failing to produce a wonderfully creative name for someone as uncreative as that girl.)

Thanks. ^^v I like Kanji a lot. He's very kind, but misunderstood. I'm happy that the anime's on his arc too. It's a nice twist on the game. :3

But as for creating other names for Renesmee, the trick is to forget she's essentially a sue/ future sue if Meyer decides to write any more- hope for the best, but expect the worst. I like "Slank." It almost sounds like "Plank" and we know that a piece of wood has more personality. I'm sure that there can be some fun names using "Jailbait" or "Demon Spawn" as derivatives too. Or the new captchas they have here. Mine's six words...

[Dr Murdoc Niccals]

Marihogany

Dr Murdoc Niccals

Marihogany

PANTS!!!! That name fits her so much better. Even she thinks of herself as a thing in places.

Or Lego Block, for that matter.
My poor friends, several are named Isabella.

Yes, Lego Block works well too. ^^
Sorry for your friends. D:

[Dr Murdoc Niccals]

Alexander J Luthor

I AM NOT A M0R0N

Necroing because this is a good discussion.

...********, I can't argue with this logic. >:/ Damn you, sir. Damn you and your clever rouses. *slow clap*

Thank you. XD

[Mage Luna]

Belethiel

I laughed my arse off when she said "flaws". b***h, your characters don't have flaws!

And seriously? Infinate possibilities? SHe makes character creation sound more laborious than it has to be! The people I write about spring from my subconsious seemingly at random, then I flesh them out when I write a rough draft, or fill them in gradually and keep things based on their character profile in a role play. :/ I find my best ones are random imaginairy springings, they're not some block I whittle down. Though, slow evoulution does work for me in role plays and longer stories... still, I like the characters generated by my brain more.

Meyer's characters aren't whittled down enough. They're too extraordinairy.

I've never had characters talk to me in my head... that's just dumb. I imagine them in situations, that's what I do. I imagine them if one of them died and the emotions the other would experience, if one of them had a child, if they got injured, or simply fighting in a battle. The only thing I hear is the cogs turning in my brain when I write, and I think that's how it should be. One must be in control of thier own writing for it to make sense. I know this, because I used to lack control myself.

Meyer can't tell the difference between "flaws" and "weaknesses that drive the plot a few times then are forgotten".

Same here.