Fallacious Twilight Arguments

Polls are for whoring!

Yes	75.5%	[ 139 ]
Yes	24.5%	[ 45 ]
Total Votes:			[ 184 ]

[Lady_Noctum]

Belethiel

haunting heaven

Quote:

Belethiel

I love either missing, or hopelessly busy parents (For example, Percy Jackson's mom was missing in the first book, Bobby Pendragon of Pendragon's whole family went missing, Coraline's parents were busy all the time).

Busy parents is what I use for one of my characters, though since she has a caretaker who is a stronger father figure to her than her perpetually busy one, I didn't exactly use it as a parental-avoidance shtick.

On rape appearing in fiction as backstory, I think it's fine if it's done well--and not just in the case of an SVU type character. After all, people from all kinds of backgrounds are raped, and they do have to deal with the fallout of that. It just needs to be handled realistically.

That's true, but making it relevant could be a problem. I know someone who writes pretty good realistic fiction, she wrote a story about a pregnant rape victim and did indeed handle it well. , in my opinion.

Someone who was a sex slave could also work, but could be done poorly. An excellent example of the sex slave backstory done well would be ( wahmbulance Hunger Games spoiler alert!): Finnick Odair.

I've been seeing it in role playing characters, but mostly done poorly. I've seen characters that were orphaned sex slaves with some tragic background. The only relevance we get out of that is endless wangst and unrealistic portrayals. One in my guild was a raped orphan, and she never, ever mentions it in the actual RP. It would be interesting if this character developed a phobia of sex or men, or men who resembled the person who raped her, but nooo... Otherwise, the character is okay as far as characterization, though. :/ Meh. (although, personally, I don't like her. I love her creator because she's my friend, but the character... no. Just no.)

It can depend on the degree that they feel that it affects the character's lives...but I agree that it is executed poorly most of the time in an rp setting. Then you get the unfortunate instances where you have the one person doing it right and then people just copy you for the attention. For an RP, I had special permission to play a character with Severe PTSD. I had to explain out why she had it, what her triggers were and give examples of how they would react before I could post. First episode and people started copying that behavior. People with NO REASON to. Sometimes subtle is a self defense thing against attention whores..

[Belethiel]

haunting heaven

Belethiel

That's true, but making it relevant could be a problem. I know someone who writes pretty good realistic fiction, she wrote a story about a pregnant rape victim and did indeed handle it well. , in my opinion.

Someone who was a sex slave could also work, but could be done poorly. An excellent example of the sex slave backstory done well would be ( wahmbulance Hunger Games spoiler alert!): Finnick Odair.

I've been seeing it in role playing characters, but mostly done poorly. I've seen characters that were orphaned sex slaves with some tragic background. The only relevance we get out of that is endless wangst and unrealistic portrayals. One in my guild was a raped orphan, and she never, ever mentions it in the actual RP. It would be interesting if this character developed a phobia of sex or men, or men who resembled the person who raped her, but nooo... Otherwise, the character is okay as far as characterization, though. :/ Meh. (although, personally, I don't like her. I love her creator because she's my friend, but the character... no. Just no.)

Yes, relevance is important and often ignored. Though I suppose that's true of any background detail--particularly the traumatic ones. Like you guys have already mentioned, it does seem that backstory angst is often included as nothing more than a bid for sympathy. Or--in the case of a*****e type characters--it's included to excuse their horrible behavior. Like Jace in The Mortal Instruments.

To be fair, role playing is kind of a different animal. It's sometimes hard to bring up every point from the backstory when you're playing with others and you have less control over where the story goes. Though often it's just laziness. So I guess it depends.

Just curious, but what is it about the character that rubs you the wrong way? (People's opinions on characters and characterization fascinate me, haha.)

Well, she was orphaned, raped, and is blind. She has bright pink hair (.... waaaiiittt... it's not natural.... why would a blind person dye their hair?) It's just... eh, the character is full of... holes like that. :l She's had too many negative, yet unrelated things happen to her.

Well, if you role play with someone for a long time, you kind of grow together and you're able to have more control over a story. That's what happened to my close internet friend and I. 3nodding

C: I like Jace. Although Cassandra Clare's characterization is mediocre (I think she piles on too many random skills and makes them too pretty and ~*awesome*~, but hey, at least she gave them genuine flaws.), I found that part of him interesting. And I have a thing for jerkass characters, they can add an interesting dynamic to a cast just because they love to tick people off.

[Belethiel]

Lady_Noctum

Belethiel

haunting heaven

Quote:

Belethiel

I love either missing, or hopelessly busy parents (For example, Percy Jackson's mom was missing in the first book, Bobby Pendragon of Pendragon's whole family went missing, Coraline's parents were busy all the time).

Busy parents is what I use for one of my characters, though since she has a caretaker who is a stronger father figure to her than her perpetually busy one, I didn't exactly use it as a parental-avoidance shtick.

On rape appearing in fiction as backstory, I think it's fine if it's done well--and not just in the case of an SVU type character. After all, people from all kinds of backgrounds are raped, and they do have to deal with the fallout of that. It just needs to be handled realistically.

That's true, but making it relevant could be a problem. I know someone who writes pretty good realistic fiction, she wrote a story about a pregnant rape victim and did indeed handle it well. , in my opinion.

Someone who was a sex slave could also work, but could be done poorly. An excellent example of the sex slave backstory done well would be ( wahmbulance Hunger Games spoiler alert!):

I've been seeing it in role playing characters, but mostly done poorly. I've seen characters that were orphaned sex slaves with some tragic background. The only relevance we get out of that is endless wangst and unrealistic portrayals. One in my guild was a raped orphan, and she never, ever mentions it in the actual RP. It would be interesting if this character developed a phobia of sex or men, or men who resembled the person who raped her, but nooo... Otherwise, the character is okay as far as characterization, though. :/ Meh. (although, personally, I don't like her. I love her creator because she's my friend, but the character... no. Just no.)

It can depend on the degree that they feel that it affects the character's lives...but I agree that it is executed poorly most of the time in an rp setting. Then you get the unfortunate instances where you have the one person doing it right and then people just copy you for the attention. For an RP, I had special permission to play a character with Severe PTSD. I had to explain out why she had it, what her triggers were and give examples of how they would react before I could post. First episode and people started copying that behavior. People with NO REASON to. Sometimes subtle is a self defense thing against attention whores..

Well, some authors can't portray stuff very well, and it all stays in their head, and they can get delusional about it. P:

There should be a rule agianst copying other characters. .____. I should write that in my own guild. I've been ripped off of in the past, although I didn't realize it at the time. xD My friend did, though. He stole the bit about warring families and murder, but he twisted it. Looking back, the character didn't make much sense.... originality is best, always.

Yeah, those same writers probably had Mary Sue characters, or believed their character had to be the center of attention all the time. Or they just weren't creative enough.

You know, I think of an RP as having the same kind of plot method as Lost did. Every separate episode covers a different character, the same thing should happen with RP arcs. In mine, we kind of avoid that because the characters are mercenaries and we have missions and separate threads for each mission. It's pretty easy for one character to gain a spotlight for the day, and that makes everybody happy. 3nodding

That reminds me, I have a character with PTSD. I decided she had it a while ago, but I didn't invent her that way. The trauma kind of built since she is exposed to so much... I should write down her triggers too, and make them more consistent. So far, she freaked out over innocent dead people in a house. I think she would also react emotionally to an empty house, or a missing friend. I dunno, I think I need to do more research. P: She definitely has mild depression, and that was on accident.

[Lady_Noctum]

Belethiel

Lady_Noctum

Belethiel

haunting heaven

Quote:

Belethiel

I love either missing, or hopelessly busy parents (For example, Percy Jackson's mom was missing in the first book, Bobby Pendragon of Pendragon's whole family went missing, Coraline's parents were busy all the time).

Busy parents is what I use for one of my characters, though since she has a caretaker who is a stronger father figure to her than her perpetually busy one, I didn't exactly use it as a parental-avoidance shtick.

On rape appearing in fiction as backstory, I think it's fine if it's done well--and not just in the case of an SVU type character. After all, people from all kinds of backgrounds are raped, and they do have to deal with the fallout of that. It just needs to be handled realistically.

That's true, but making it relevant could be a problem. I know someone who writes pretty good realistic fiction, she wrote a story about a pregnant rape victim and did indeed handle it well. , in my opinion.

Someone who was a sex slave could also work, but could be done poorly. An excellent example of the sex slave backstory done well would be ( wahmbulance Hunger Games spoiler alert!):

I've been seeing it in role playing characters, but mostly done poorly. I've seen characters that were orphaned sex slaves with some tragic background. The only relevance we get out of that is endless wangst and unrealistic portrayals. One in my guild was a raped orphan, and she never, ever mentions it in the actual RP. It would be interesting if this character developed a phobia of sex or men, or men who resembled the person who raped her, but nooo... Otherwise, the character is okay as far as characterization, though. :/ Meh. (although, personally, I don't like her. I love her creator because she's my friend, but the character... no. Just no.)

It can depend on the degree that they feel that it affects the character's lives...but I agree that it is executed poorly most of the time in an rp setting. Then you get the unfortunate instances where you have the one person doing it right and then people just copy you for the attention. For an RP, I had special permission to play a character with Severe PTSD. I had to explain out why she had it, what her triggers were and give examples of how they would react before I could post. First episode and people started copying that behavior. People with NO REASON to. Sometimes subtle is a self defense thing against attention whores..

Well, some authors can't portray stuff very well, and it all stays in their head, and they can get delusional about it. P:

There should be a rule agianst copying other characters. .____. I should write that in my own guild. I've been ripped off of in the past, although I didn't realize it at the time. xD My friend did, though. He stole the bit about warring families and murder, but he twisted it. Looking back, the character didn't make much sense.... originality is best, always.

Yeah, those same writers probably had Mary Sue characters, or believed their character had to be the center of attention all the time. Or they just weren't creative enough.

You know, I think of an RP as having the same kind of plot method as Lost did. Every separate episode covers a different character, the same thing should happen with RP arcs. In mine, we kind of avoid that because the characters are mercenaries and we have missions and separate threads for each mission. It's pretty easy for one character to gain a spotlight for the day, and that makes everybody happy. 3nodding

That reminds me, I have a character with PTSD. I decided she had it a while ago, but I didn't invent her that way. The trauma kind of built since she is exposed to so much... I should write down her triggers too, and make them more consistent. So far, she freaked out over innocent dead people in a house. I think she would also react emotionally to an empty house, or a missing friend. I dunno, I think I need to do more research. P: She definitely has mild depression, and that was on accident.

This is an interesting conversation, but it doesn't really belong. Shall we take it to PMs?

[haunting heaven]

Belethiel

Well, she was orphaned, raped, and is blind. She has bright pink hair (.... waaaiiittt... it's not natural.... why would a blind person dye their hair?) It's just... eh, the character is full of... holes like that. :l She's had too many negative, yet unrelated things happen to her.

Well, if you role play with someone for a long time, you kind of grow together and you're able to have more control over a story. That's what happened to my close internet friend and I. 3nodding

C: I like Jace. Although Cassandra Clare's characterization is mediocre (I think she piles on too many random skills and makes them too pretty and ~*awesome*~, but hey, at least she gave them genuine flaws.), I found that part of him interesting. And I have a thing for jerkass characters, they can add an interesting dynamic to a cast just because they love to tick people off.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that sounds like a somewhat irritating character type, though I suppose one could argue that she had her hair dyed in order to portray herself in a certain way to others around her and not because she necessarily finds pink her aesthetically pleasing. Though it sounds like the kind of thing that should be explained instead of just thrown in there as description. :/

I've never really role played with anyone for an extended period of time, haha. The most I've written with someone is with my sister for a novel--and with that I have most of the control.

Strange thing is, I generally do like characters who tend toward more jerkass type behavior, but Jace rubbed me the wrong way. I thiiiiink it's because Clare tried to pass off his behavior as acceptable and appealing within the context of the story, which is kinda crazy to me. While an a*****e character can be fun and amusing to the reader, she/he shouldn't come off as fun and amusing to the other characters. I also don't think the behavior should be excused by the author and/or the other characters, and I definitely think the a*****e character's actions should carry repercussions. On the flaws thing, they generally didn't come across as genuine to me--not when a lot of them kept getting fluffed off as a-okay. Buuut I'm also kinda biased here due to my general dislike of Clare and her Harry Potter rip-offs. ninja

Heh. I'm all familiar with this story right now because I'm currently rereading it for my class.

[Belethiel]

Lady_Noctum

Belethiel

Lady_Noctum

Belethiel

haunting heaven

Quote:

Belethiel

I love either missing, or hopelessly busy parents (For example, Percy Jackson's mom was missing in the first book, Bobby Pendragon of Pendragon's whole family went missing, Coraline's parents were busy all the time).

Busy parents is what I use for one of my characters, though since she has a caretaker who is a stronger father figure to her than her perpetually busy one, I didn't exactly use it as a parental-avoidance shtick.

On rape appearing in fiction as backstory, I think it's fine if it's done well--and not just in the case of an SVU type character. After all, people from all kinds of backgrounds are raped, and they do have to deal with the fallout of that. It just needs to be handled realistically.

That's true, but making it relevant could be a problem. I know someone who writes pretty good realistic fiction, she wrote a story about a pregnant rape victim and did indeed handle it well. , in my opinion.

Someone who was a sex slave could also work, but could be done poorly. An excellent example of the sex slave backstory done well would be ( wahmbulance Hunger Games spoiler alert!):

I've been seeing it in role playing characters, but mostly done poorly. I've seen characters that were orphaned sex slaves with some tragic background. The only relevance we get out of that is endless wangst and unrealistic portrayals. One in my guild was a raped orphan, and she never, ever mentions it in the actual RP. It would be interesting if this character developed a phobia of sex or men, or men who resembled the person who raped her, but nooo... Otherwise, the character is okay as far as characterization, though. :/ Meh. (although, personally, I don't like her. I love her creator because she's my friend, but the character... no. Just no.)

It can depend on the degree that they feel that it affects the character's lives...but I agree that it is executed poorly most of the time in an rp setting. Then you get the unfortunate instances where you have the one person doing it right and then people just copy you for the attention. For an RP, I had special permission to play a character with Severe PTSD. I had to explain out why she had it, what her triggers were and give examples of how they would react before I could post. First episode and people started copying that behavior. People with NO REASON to. Sometimes subtle is a self defense thing against attention whores..

Well, some authors can't portray stuff very well, and it all stays in their head, and they can get delusional about it. P:

There should be a rule agianst copying other characters. .____. I should write that in my own guild. I've been ripped off of in the past, although I didn't realize it at the time. xD My friend did, though. He stole the bit about warring families and murder, but he twisted it. Looking back, the character didn't make much sense.... originality is best, always.

Yeah, those same writers probably had Mary Sue characters, or believed their character had to be the center of attention all the time. Or they just weren't creative enough.

You know, I think of an RP as having the same kind of plot method as Lost did. Every separate episode covers a different character, the same thing should happen with RP arcs. In mine, we kind of avoid that because the characters are mercenaries and we have missions and separate threads for each mission. It's pretty easy for one character to gain a spotlight for the day, and that makes everybody happy. 3nodding

That reminds me, I have a character with PTSD. I decided she had it a while ago, but I didn't invent her that way. The trauma kind of built since she is exposed to so much... I should write down her triggers too, and make them more consistent. So far, she freaked out over innocent dead people in a house. I think she would also react emotionally to an empty house, or a missing friend. I dunno, I think I need to do more research. P: She definitely has mild depression, and that was on accident.

This is an interesting conversation, but it doesn't really belong. Shall we take it to PMs?

I dunno, we always go off topic in the TsF like this, and as far as I know, this place isn't heavily modded, or modded at all. I think we're safe from getting caught for spamming. xD

As long as we relate it to Twilight or just plain literature, I think we're okay.

[Belethiel]

haunting heaven

Belethiel

Well, she was orphaned, raped, and is blind. She has bright pink hair (.... waaaiiittt... it's not natural.... why would a blind person dye their hair?) It's just... eh, the character is full of... holes like that. :l She's had too many negative, yet unrelated things happen to her.

Well, if you role play with someone for a long time, you kind of grow together and you're able to have more control over a story. That's what happened to my close internet friend and I. 3nodding

C: I like Jace. Although Cassandra Clare's characterization is mediocre (I think she piles on too many random skills and makes them too pretty and ~*awesome*~, but hey, at least she gave them genuine flaws.), I found that part of him interesting. And I have a thing for jerkass characters, they can add an interesting dynamic to a cast just because they love to tick people off.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that sounds like a somewhat irritating character type, though I suppose one could argue that she had her hair dyed in order to portray herself in a certain way to others around her and not because she necessarily finds pink her aesthetically pleasing. Though it sounds like the kind of thing that should be explained instead of just thrown in there as description. :/

I've never really role played with anyone for an extended period of time, haha. The most I've written with someone is with my sister for a novel--and with that I have most of the control.

Strange thing is, I generally do like characters who tend toward more jerkass type behavior, but Jace rubbed me the wrong way. I thiiiiink it's because Clare tried to pass off his behavior as acceptable and appealing within the context of the story, which is kinda crazy to me. While an a*****e character can be fun and amusing to the reader, she/he shouldn't come off as fun and amusing to the other characters. I also don't think the behavior should be excused by the author and/or the other characters, and I definitely think the a*****e character's actions should carry repercussions. On the flaws thing, they generally didn't come across as genuine to me--not when a lot of them kept getting fluffed off as a-okay. Buuut I'm also kinda biased here due to my general dislike of Clare and her Harry Potter rip-offs. ninja

Heh. I'm all familiar with this story right now because I'm currently rereading it for my class.

Huh. I never thought that his behavior was portrayed as acceptable. Clary did call him an asshat once, and I believe he got called out on a couple of other things. Clary's impulsiveness did get her in trouble routinely, so that is a flaw, too. Jace... eeehhh... I'm not sure about his flaws as being genuine, now that I think about it. The author of The Mortal Instruments is disperportionately better with plot than with characters....

You know, I don't think she ripped off of Harry Potter at all, and I've read both series. :/ But I can tell that she was influenced by J.K Rowling, and her plot twists were very Rowling-esque, and it did have an M word for ordinary people, and the tool of the magical people were magical stick things (that do completely different stuff). Percy Jackson was more like Harry Potter, if you ask me, since it had a almost the same premise and the main characters shared a flaw, the need to act as a hero and constantly save people (and Annabeth was kind of like Hermione, with her brains and all, but they had different personalities. Annabeth was described as being "stormy", while Hermione was a little more reserved and very bookish.) You're going to find similarities in any books if you compare them enough. :v Especially now since the Potter fans have grown up and are writing their own books. Hell, I've borrowed stuff from Rowling, as she borrowed from Tolkien.

[haunting heaven]

Belethiel

Huh. I never thought that his behavior was portrayed as acceptable. Clary did call him an asshat once, and I believe he got called out on a couple of other things. Clary's impulsiveness did get her in trouble routinely, so that is a flaw, too. Jace... eeehhh... I'm not sure about his flaws as being genuine, now that I think about it. The author of The Mortal Instruments is disperportionately better with plot than with characters....

You know, I don't think she ripped off of Harry Potter at all, and I've read both series. :/ But I can tell that she was influenced by J.K Rowling, and her plot twists were very Rowling-esque, and it did have an M word for ordinary people, and the tool of the magical people were magical stick things (that do completely different stuff). Percy Jackson was more like Harry Potter, if you ask me, since it had a almost the same premise and the main characters shared a flaw, the need to act as a hero and constantly save people (and Annabeth was kind of like Hermione, with her brains and all, but they had different personalities. Annabeth was described as being "stormy", while Hermione was a little more reserved and very bookish.) You're going to find similarities in any books if you compare them enough. :v Especially now since the Potter fans have grown up and are writing their own books. Hell, I've borrowed stuff from Rowling, as she borrowed from Tolkien.

Clary complains that he's a jerk, but that's about all she does. She never tells him to wise up or she'll leave, and considering the amount of racism that comes spewing out of his mouth and she doesn't even blink an eye at, I just don't buy that she ever really cared that he was an a**. Plus, Isabelle sums up the feelings of the author and the other characters quite well: The fact that he's a douche is "what makes him so damn sexy." But, yes, Clary's impulsiveness is a flaw, I suppose.

"Ripped-off" is a rather overly strong term (I didn't mean to imply that she plagiarized or anything like that or that what she did was wrong in any way), but what I mean is that I didn't feel that anything I read of hers was groundbreaking or original. It just felt like she was regurgitating the same themes and plot points that you find in the Harry Potter series without putting much of her own spin on them (except that they came across as weaker since the Shadowhunters--even the supposedly "good" ones--are all so horribly condescending toward the "mundies" ). Considering that Jace is basically HP fanon's version of Draco, it's not surprising. I've never read the Percy Jackson series (I saw the movie and couldn't even sit through the whole thing), but I have heard that it was very much like HP. Anyway, I'm aware that there will always be similarities, but in my opinion, TMI took the similarities too far for me to enjoy the series without constantly comparing it to HP. Of course, part of the problem is that I don't like HP much either.

[Belethiel]

haunting heaven

Belethiel

Huh. I never thought that his behavior was portrayed as acceptable. Clary did call him an asshat once, and I believe he got called out on a couple of other things. Clary's impulsiveness did get her in trouble routinely, so that is a flaw, too. Jace... eeehhh... I'm not sure about his flaws as being genuine, now that I think about it. The author of The Mortal Instruments is disperportionately better with plot than with characters....

You know, I don't think she ripped off of Harry Potter at all, and I've read both series. :/ But I can tell that she was influenced by J.K Rowling, and her plot twists were very Rowling-esque, and it did have an M word for ordinary people, and the tool of the magical people were magical stick things (that do completely different stuff). Percy Jackson was more like Harry Potter, if you ask me, since it had a almost the same premise and the main characters shared a flaw, the need to act as a hero and constantly save people (and Annabeth was kind of like Hermione, with her brains and all, but they had different personalities. Annabeth was described as being "stormy", while Hermione was a little more reserved and very bookish.) You're going to find similarities in any books if you compare them enough. :v Especially now since the Potter fans have grown up and are writing their own books. Hell, I've borrowed stuff from Rowling, as she borrowed from Tolkien.

Clary complains that he's a jerk, but that's about all she does. She never tells him to wise up or she'll leave, and considering the amount of racism that comes spewing out of his mouth and she doesn't even blink an eye at, I just don't buy that she ever really cared that he was an a**. Plus, Isabelle sums up the feelings of the author and the other characters quite well: The fact that he's a douche is "what makes him so damn sexy." But, yes, Clary's impulsiveness is a flaw, I suppose.

"Ripped-off" is a rather overly strong term (I didn't mean to imply that she plagiarized or anything like that or that what she did was wrong in any way), but what I mean is that I didn't feel that anything I read of hers was groundbreaking or original. It just felt like she was regurgitating the same themes and plot points that you find in the Harry Potter series without putting much of her own spin on them (except that they came across as weaker since the Shadowhunters--even the supposedly "good" ones--are all so horribly condescending toward the "mundies" ). Considering that Jace is basically HP fanon's version of Draco, it's not surprising. I've never read the Percy Jackson series (I saw the movie and couldn't even sit through the whole thing), but I have heard that it was very much like HP. Anyway, I'm aware that there will always be similarities, but in my opinion, TMI took the similarities too far for me to enjoy the series without constantly comparing it to HP. Of course, part of the problem is that I don't like HP much either.

Eh, true. Still, it was a fun read for me, and just that. :v But, I do look forward to the movie and I count myself as a fan.

Jace kind of grows up in the end of the 3rd book. At least I think I detected a change, I'll have to read the fourth one to be sure. I think the author doesn't approve of his racisim toward Downworlders. There are awesome characters who aren't Shadowhunters, and his feelings toward the other people that inhabited his world kind of fades. There was a call for unity of every race in the end, too. And I can't say any Shadowhunter hated humans, and just thought of them as helpless, but they weren't racist toward normal humans. At least I don't think they were. I suppose your mileage will vary with that, though.

And as a mundane, Simon had a moment of awesome as he killed a demon that Jace couldn't, and with a bow and arrow (... I wish his archery skills were used more, by the way. I hate seeing stuff used only once.). That was after he told him, "No, you can't come, you're just a mundie."

I haven't read Harry Potter fanfiction, so I am not familiar with fannon Draco. But, I think the two character's roles and backstories are too different.

Also, he was raised by Valentine, who really hated everybody. It would've been hard and unrealistic to avoid his influence. I think you can justify his behavior, but I agree the author didn't do enough to disprove of it, at least directly through her narration. If I wrote The Mortal Instruments, I would've been mocking and lampshading Jace's behavior left and right.

[haunting heaven]

Belethiel

Eh, true. Still, it was a fun read for me, and just that. :v But, I do look forward to the movie and I count myself as a fan.

Jace kind of grows up in the end of the 3rd book. At least I think I detected a change, I'll have to read the fourth one to be sure. I think the author doesn't approve of his racisim toward Downworlders. There are awesome characters who aren't Shadowhunters, and his feelings toward the other people that inhabited his world kind of fades. There was a call for unity of every race in the end, too. And I can't say any Shadowhunter hated humans, and just thought of them as helpless, but they weren't racist toward normal humans. At least I don't think they were. I suppose your mileage will vary with that, though.

And as a mundane, Simon had a moment of awesome as he killed a demon that Jace couldn't, and with a bow and arrow (... I wish his archery skills were used more, by the way. I hate seeing stuff used only once.). That was after he told him, "No, you can't come, you're just a mundie."

I haven't read Harry Potter fanfiction, so I am not familiar with fannon Draco. But, I think the two character's roles and backstories are too different.

Also, he was raised by Valentine, who really hated everybody. It would've been hard and unrealistic to avoid his influence. I think you can justify his behavior, but I agree the author didn't do enough to disprove of it, at least directly through her narration. If I wrote The Mortal Instruments, I would've been mocking and lampshading Jace's behavior left and right.

Yeah... I still found it fairly entertaining. I mean, I plan on reading all the books at some point. I've only read the first two so far.

That would be awesome if he actually grows up a bit. I'm looking forward to seeing that for myself now. The problem with the whole racism thing is that it really does seem to come from all the Shadowhunters (though not necessarily the Downworlders)--which isn't to say that the Shadowhunters hated humans. They just thought humans were pathetic and--like you said--helpless. The part with the archery kind of proved that for me. First when Simon makes a comment about the bow, Alec (or whatever his name is... I think it's Alec) acts all shocked that he has any idea what a bow is let alone how to use it, and when he does use it--and quite successfully--Isabelle gushes over how it's so nice that a mundie was able to shoot a bow like that. Because, you know, apparently only Shadowhunters know how to use weapons or something.

I don't read HP fanfiction either, but I did a lot of research on Clare and her plagiarism scandal, so the whole thing with fannon Draco is that he's pretty much nothing like cannon Draco and is, in fact, very much like Jace. You know, snarky and vicious but at least somewhat well-meaning with an abusive father who he identifies with and wants to emulate. In fact, Clare wrote some long-winded fanfiction with fannon Draco as her MC, and she literally pulled chunks out of that story and used it in TMI. Like the falcon bit, for example.

Oh, I think his being raised by Valentine justifies the existence of his behavior as a plot point, but when I say justify, I mean that it seems as if the readers are supposed to judge his bad behavior as acceptable because he's a poor angsty teen who had a tough life. So, yeah--in the hands of a better author, I think it would have been fine. Clare just kinda butchered it for me. Even though, like I said earlier, I usually quite enjoy the jerkass characters.

[Belethiel]

haunting heaven

Belethiel

Eh, true. Still, it was a fun read for me, and just that. :v But, I do look forward to the movie and I count myself as a fan.

Jace kind of grows up in the end of the 3rd book. At least I think I detected a change, I'll have to read the fourth one to be sure. I think the author doesn't approve of his racisim toward Downworlders. There are awesome characters who aren't Shadowhunters, and his feelings toward the other people that inhabited his world kind of fades. There was a call for unity of every race in the end, too. And I can't say any Shadowhunter hated humans, and just thought of them as helpless, but they weren't racist toward normal humans. At least I don't think they were. I suppose your mileage will vary with that, though.

And as a mundane, Simon had a moment of awesome as he killed a demon that Jace couldn't, and with a bow and arrow (... I wish his archery skills were used more, by the way. I hate seeing stuff used only once.). That was after he told him, "No, you can't come, you're just a mundie."

I haven't read Harry Potter fanfiction, so I am not familiar with fannon Draco. But, I think the two character's roles and backstories are too different.

Also, he was raised by Valentine, who really hated everybody. It would've been hard and unrealistic to avoid his influence. I think you can justify his behavior, but I agree the author didn't do enough to disprove of it, at least directly through her narration. If I wrote The Mortal Instruments, I would've been mocking and lampshading Jace's behavior left and right.

Yeah... I still found it fairly entertaining. I mean, I plan on reading all the books at some point. I've only read the first two so far.

That would be awesome if he actually grows up a bit. I'm looking forward to seeing that for myself now. The problem with the whole racism thing is that it really does seem to come from all the Shadowhunters (though not necessarily the Downworlders)--which isn't to say that the Shadowhunters hated humans. They just thought humans were pathetic and--like you said--helpless. The part with the archery kind of proved that for me. First when Simon makes a comment about the bow, Alec (or whatever his name is... I think it's Alec) acts all shocked that he has any idea what a bow is let alone how to use it, and when he does use it--and quite successfully--Isabelle gushes over how it's so nice that a mundie was able to shoot a bow like that. Because, you know, apparently only Shadowhunters know how to use weapons or something.

I don't read HP fanfiction either, but I did a lot of research on Clare and her plagiarism scandal, so the whole thing with fannon Draco is that he's pretty much nothing like cannon Draco and is, in fact, very much like Jace. You know, snarky and vicious but at least somewhat well-meaning with an abusive father who he identifies with and wants to emulate. In fact, Clare wrote some long-winded fanfiction with fannon Draco as her MC, and she literally pulled chunks out of that story and used it in TMI. Like the falcon bit, for example.

Oh, I think his being raised by Valentine justifies the existence of his behavior as a plot point, but when I say justify, I mean that it seems as if the readers are supposed to judge his bad behavior as acceptable because he's a poor angsty teen who had a tough life. So, yeah--in the hands of a better author, I think it would have been fine. Clare just kinda butchered it for me. Even though, like I said earlier, I usually quite enjoy the jerkass characters.

Just because the books are funny is the number one reason why I like them.

Plain and simple, Shadowhunters are sheltered. I did not expect them to go "Wow, mundies are awesome!" It would've been odd and out of character if they did.

I really don't care if an author draws from past, unpublished work to write stuff. I could care less about Clare's fanfiction. xD People just like to fantasize about characters, and who knows. Maybe she actually does see Draco for what he is, and just liked fixing him or making him more sympathetic.

Yep. Kinda did butcher it. But, she isn't awful, but has a lot of room for improvement. And she does seem like the kind of person who would improve on stuff. My english teacher knows her personally, and she seems really nice and open minded, unlike Meyer. And she actually does research! She used a lot of biblical mythology, and other stories about demons from around the world and made the demons her own. Hey, she even twisted the angels, and went back to the traditional type of faeries (though I think her friend Holly Black helped her with that one).

[haunting heaven]

Belethiel

Just because the books are funny is the number one reason why I like them.

Plain and simple, Shadowhunters are sheltered. I did not expect them to go "Wow, mundies are awesome!" It would've been odd and out of character if they did.

I really don't care if an author draws from past, unpublished work to write stuff. I could care less about Clare's fanfiction. xD People just like to fantasize about characters, and who knows. Maybe she actually does see Draco for what he is, and just liked fixing him or making him more sympathetic.

Yep. Kinda did butcher it. But, she isn't awful, but has a lot of room for improvement. And she does seem like the kind of person who would improve on stuff. My english teacher knows her personally, and she seems really nice and open minded, unlike Meyer. And she actually does research! She used a lot of biblical mythology, and other stories about demons from around the world and made the demons her own. Hey, she even twisted the angels, and went back to the traditional type of faeries (though I think her friend Holly Black helped her with that one).

Some of the dialogue is clever, I'll admit. So much snark. It's fun.

I don't buy that they're sheltered. They're raised to look down on humans, yes, but there's nothing to justify that in the first place or the fact that they perpetuate the idea. They're not so far removed from human society that they're ignorant of it (though Jace apparently doesn't know what the internet is for some reason). They use human inventions and hang out in human cities. It's just... they're so condescending when they have no reason to be. So humans don't know about the Downworlders and Shadowhunters? Is that all it takes to look down on them? Never mind that they have so many rich cultures of their own--they're not part of the Shadowhunter culture, so they're incapable of taking care of themselves. It never seems to occur to them that they could clue them into what's going on.

Well, I don't either--normally. But the fact that it was a fanfiction bugs me. But that's my own personal preference, really.

No, I don't think she's awful, and I've heard that her side series (dunno what it's called) is better than TMI. So I'm sure she'll improve even more. I didn't see too much evidence of research in the first book (and it's been a while since I read the second, so I can't comment on that), and because of that, it felt like her world building left a lot to be desired. Again, though, I'm really biased because of her plagiarism as a fanfic author. I look at everything she writes critically now.

Anyways, because I'm curious (and love spoilers), how does she twist the angels? My library doesn't have the third book and I don't want to buy it just yet, but I'm always interested in seeing other authors' interpretations of angel mythology since it's such a prominent factor in my own work. xD

[Belethiel]

haunting heaven

Belethiel

Just because the books are funny is the number one reason why I like them.

Plain and simple, Shadowhunters are sheltered. I did not expect them to go "Wow, mundies are awesome!" It would've been odd and out of character if they did.

I really don't care if an author draws from past, unpublished work to write stuff. I could care less about Clare's fanfiction. xD People just like to fantasize about characters, and who knows. Maybe she actually does see Draco for what he is, and just liked fixing him or making him more sympathetic.

Yep. Kinda did butcher it. But, she isn't awful, but has a lot of room for improvement. And she does seem like the kind of person who would improve on stuff. My english teacher knows her personally, and she seems really nice and open minded, unlike Meyer. And she actually does research! She used a lot of biblical mythology, and other stories about demons from around the world and made the demons her own. Hey, she even twisted the angels, and went back to the traditional type of faeries (though I think her friend Holly Black helped her with that one).

Some of the dialogue is clever, I'll admit. So much snark. It's fun.

I don't buy that they're sheltered. They're raised to look down on humans, yes, but there's nothing to justify that in the first place or the fact that they perpetuate the idea. They're not so far removed from human society that they're ignorant of it (though Jace apparently doesn't know what the internet is for some reason). They use human inventions and hang out in human cities. It's just... they're so condescending when they have no reason to be. So humans don't know about the Downworlders and Shadowhunters? Is that all it takes to look down on them? Never mind that they have so many rich cultures of their own--they're not part of the Shadowhunter culture, so they're incapable of taking care of themselves. It never seems to occur to them that they could clue them into what's going on.

Well, I don't either--normally. But the fact that it was a fanfiction bugs me. But that's my own personal preference, really.

No, I don't think she's awful, and I've heard that her side series (dunno what it's called) is better than TMI. So I'm sure she'll improve even more. I didn't see too much evidence of research in the first book (and it's been a while since I read the second, so I can't comment on that), and because of that, it felt like her world building left a lot to be desired. Again, though, I'm really biased because of her plagiarism as a fanfic author. I look at everything she writes critically now.

Anyways, because I'm curious (and love spoilers), how does she twist the angels? My library doesn't have the third book and I don't want to buy it just yet, but I'm always interested in seeing other authors' interpretations of angel mythology since it's such a prominent factor in my own work. xD

Eh, I still say they have an excuse for their sense of superiority and ignorance. They are painted as ignorant and very seperate from normal human culture. They are pretty removed. More downworlders are like humans than they are, since they mingle with them more often. Still, Shadowhunters need to learn more about humans. I hope Clary can teach Jace a thing or two about how awesome we can be.

The thrid book was really interesting since they got to Idris.

Well, the arcangels are otherworldly looking. They're still beautiful and have wings, but those wings have eyes on them and there is something alien about their faces. When I read the description of one I was like "Huh... that's different. Cool." They're a bit unnerving, too.

I also hope the continuation of the series covers up some plotholes and ties loose ends, and the series gets a better ending than the original trilogy. I think that's why she decided to continue with it because the ending of the third book did leave questions unanswered. I head the fourth book has something to do with Simon.

[haunting heaven]

Belethiel

Eh, I still say they have an excuse for their sense of superiority and ignorance. They are painted as ignorant and very seperate from normal human culture. They are pretty removed. More downworlders are like humans than they are, since they mingle with them more often. Still, Shadowhunters need to learn more about humans. I hope Clary can teach Jace a thing or two about how awesome we can be.

The thrid book was really interesting since they got to Idris.

Well, the arcangels are otherworldly looking. They're still beautiful and have wings, but those wings have eyes on them and there is something alien about their faces. When I read the description of one I was like "Huh... that's different. Cool." They're a bit unnerving, too.

I also hope the continuation of the series covers up some plotholes and ties loose ends, and the series gets a better ending than the original trilogy. I think that's why she decided to continue with it because the ending of the third book did leave questions unanswered. I head the fourth book has something to do with Simon.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on how involved they are in the human world. c: Though you bring up a good point about the Downworlders. I definitely got more of a sense of respect for humanity on the Downworlders' part. Not always, but sometimes.

Idris is the hidden country of the Shadowhunters, correct? Bleh. I'm bad with names.

Ah. The eyes on the wings reminds me of some descriptions of angels in the Bible. They have eyes on their wings--and other various parts of their bodies, haha. Though biblical angels are typically a lot more inhuman and eldritch. Are the angels in TMI good or bad or in a more morally gray area?

I heard the same thing. I generally like Simon, so that would be cool if it's true.

[Belethiel]

haunting heaven

Belethiel

Eh, I still say they have an excuse for their sense of superiority and ignorance. They are painted as ignorant and very seperate from normal human culture. They are pretty removed. More downworlders are like humans than they are, since they mingle with them more often. Still, Shadowhunters need to learn more about humans. I hope Clary can teach Jace a thing or two about how awesome we can be.

The thrid book was really interesting since they got to Idris.

Well, the arcangels are otherworldly looking. They're still beautiful and have wings, but those wings have eyes on them and there is something alien about their faces. When I read the description of one I was like "Huh... that's different. Cool." They're a bit unnerving, too.

I also hope the continuation of the series covers up some plotholes and ties loose ends, and the series gets a better ending than the original trilogy. I think that's why she decided to continue with it because the ending of the third book did leave questions unanswered. I head the fourth book has something to do with Simon.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on how involved they are in the human world. c: Though you bring up a good point about the Downworlders. I definitely got more of a sense of respect for humanity on the Downworlders' part. Not always, but sometimes.

Idris is the hidden country of the Shadowhunters, correct? Bleh. I'm bad with names.

Ah. The eyes on the wings reminds me of some descriptions of angels in the Bible. They have eyes on their wings--and other various parts of their bodies, haha. Though biblical angels are typically a lot more inhuman and eldritch. Are the angels in TMI good or bad or in a more morally gray area?

I heard the same thing. I generally like Simon, so that would be cool if it's true.

Yep, Idris is their home.

Oh, then they were very close to what they were in the Bible. No twists there. Oops. I was just unaware of the biblical descriptions. We never learned about them in church. :/ And I don't go to church or read the bible anymore anyway. xD

I don't know. I think they're good, but neither of the two stayed around long enough to be sure.