Fallacious Twilight Arguments

Polls are for whoring!

Yes	75.5%	[ 139 ]
Yes	24.5%	[ 45 ]
Total Votes:			[ 184 ]

[Minerva de Sade]

Belethiel

I may be guilty of that. One of mine had a lovely family life until most were murdered, enslaved, or simply dissapeared and she never found them. I'll bet she still has relatives somewhere... And the other is a runaway. His dad was an apathetic alcoholic, and his brother was an abusive psychopath that killed his mother. There are plenty of other main characters that did have happy childhoods to balance that out.

Healing factors and elvish style healing are okay, as long as they can't heal everything. xD Like if someone is disembowled, decapitated, paralyzed, shot or stabbed in the head or heart in my universe, there is no way anybody comes back from that unless if they're a cyborg, a demon, or are immortal by magical means. Even then everybody has that one Achilles's heel.

I think the only thing that makes horrible childhoods distasteful is if the characters angst over them a lot. Mine got over it, but they have their scars.

What is it with rape becoming so prevalent? It is distasteful, and it's just thrown in to ad angst. It's acceptable if there is some SVU cop who was raped as a child and wants to lock people like those who did that to her away, and if the author did the research on the effects of rape. (which varies widely, depending on the victim.) But some magical fantasy hero? No. It's very, very rare that that would work. Just stick with dead parents, authors.

... Bella's family isn't that broken, to be honest. They're all still alive and still talking to eachother.

♒

"See? Now THAT'S how to do it.

And the rape thing bothers me, to be honest. I know people who have been there, and to see it be used in situations like with Rosalie really irritate me.

And I know it's not 'broken', but Meyer tries to characterize Bella as such. Hence the quotes."

[Shin Shiv Katana]

Mage Luna

Shin Shiv Katana

Mage Luna

Shin Shiv Katana

Mage Luna

It's pretty sad that fans don't assume that most people would at least finish the first book to see what the big deal they were making was about.

Yeah, but I am grateful there are sane fans, even if for some strange reason they think Meyer is a genius.

Eh, there could be people who think it's a guilty pleasure in that sane fan category.

There are some, but there is at least one I know of that's a sane fan that still thinks Meyer is a genius, case and point, someone I know on the Ponyville forum.

Huh, that is strange. Has this fan read the books multiple times?

Sounds like it.

[Mage Luna]

@Shin Shiv Katana
Huh, that's strange. Even in my fantard days I had trouble rereading (I should have taken that as a sign).

@Belethiel and Minerva de Sade
Rape and dead parents bother me when it's just thrown in to make a character sympathetic or in the case of the latter to not have to deal with the character having parents.

Belethiel, you're doing a good job giving creative trauma that will probably have plot significance instead of an attempt to arouse sympathy from readers.

[Belethiel]

Mage Luna

@Shin Shiv Katana
Huh, that's strange. Even in my fantard days I had trouble rereading (I should have taken that as a sign).

@Belethiel and Minerva de Sade
Rape and dead parents bother me when it's just thrown in to make a character sympathetic or in the case of the latter to not have to deal with the character having parents.

Belethiel, you're doing a good job giving creative trauma that will probably have plot significance instead of an attempt to arouse sympathy from readers.

Thank you. ^_^

I haz revenge plotz. emotion_awesome Meh, my friend is much better at characterization than I am. P: I look lazy compared to him.

If you're gonna have their parents die, then make the characters like Harry Potter, or Alek Hapsburg (who's parent's murder set off freaking World War I). You know, having no parents around is really convenient, but any chance you get you should give the character a mom and dad (or two of each) who raised them. If your character is an adult, then you should have no reason for dead parents, except for plot relevancy, or maybe being an orphan helped make them who they were, or place them where they are. Parental displacement still needs to be there somehow. Maybe the parents are the antagonists? Does the kid live in a boarding school or other location away from home? Are their parents just really, really busy? The kid could also leave home to go on an epic quest, leaving his parents behind. There are better ways to ditch those silly parental units.

And I know I don't like characters because I should feel bad for them. I like them because they are awesome. They could be the biggest, wangsty woobie in the world and still be an unlikable jerk. Now, characters who get past their problems and don't spend time dwelling on them and complaining, but actually doing stuff about it... that's what it's all about.

[Shin Shiv Katana]

Mage Luna

@Shin Shiv Katana
Huh, that's strange. Even in my fantard days I had trouble rereading (I should have taken that as a sign).

@Belethiel and Minerva de Sade
Rape and dead parents bother me when it's just thrown in to make a character sympathetic or in the case of the latter to not have to deal with the character having parents.

Belethiel, you're doing a good job giving creative trauma that will probably have plot significance instead of an attempt to arouse sympathy from readers.

I'm honestly not sure how she can do it.

[Mage Luna]

Belethiel

Mage Luna

@Shin Shiv Katana
Huh, that's strange. Even in my fantard days I had trouble rereading (I should have taken that as a sign).

@Belethiel and Minerva de Sade
Rape and dead parents bother me when it's just thrown in to make a character sympathetic or in the case of the latter to not have to deal with the character having parents.

Belethiel, you're doing a good job giving creative trauma that will probably have plot significance instead of an attempt to arouse sympathy from readers.

Thank you. ^_^

I haz revenge plotz. emotion_awesome Meh, my friend is much better at characterization than I am. P: I look lazy compared to him.

If you're gonna have their parents die, then make the characters like Harry Potter, or Alek Hapsburg (who's parent's murder set off freaking World War I). You know, having no parents around is really convenient, but any chance you get you should give the character a mom and dad (or two of each) who raised them. If your character is an adult, then you should have no reason for dead parents, except for plot relevancy, or maybe being an orphan helped make them who they were, or place them where they are. Parental displacement still needs to be there somehow. Maybe the parents are the antagonists? Does the kid live in a boarding school or other location away from home? Are their parents just really, really busy? The kid could also leave home to go on an epic quest, leaving his parents behind. There are better ways to ditch those silly parental units.

And I know I don't like characters because I should feel bad for them. I like them because they are awesome. They could be the biggest, wangsty woobie in the world and still be an unlikable jerk. Now, characters who get past their problems and don't spend time dwelling on them and complaining, but actually doing stuff about it... that's what it's all about.

You're welcome!

And that's a good use of dramatically killed parents- plot catalyst. If writers are considering killing off a characters parents as backstory they should ask themselves the question "would the dead parents have an effect on the character's personality?" If the answer is no, don't kill them, think of another way to occupy them so they're out of the plot.

I agree, sympathy shouldn't be the only reason one should like a character. I like some woobie characters, but they tend to be the type of woobie that while they dwell on their problem, but also are inspired to do some good by it.

[Belethiel]

Mage Luna

Belethiel

Mage Luna

@Shin Shiv Katana
Huh, that's strange. Even in my fantard days I had trouble rereading (I should have taken that as a sign).

@Belethiel and Minerva de Sade
Rape and dead parents bother me when it's just thrown in to make a character sympathetic or in the case of the latter to not have to deal with the character having parents.

Belethiel, you're doing a good job giving creative trauma that will probably have plot significance instead of an attempt to arouse sympathy from readers.

Thank you. ^_^

I haz revenge plotz. emotion_awesome Meh, my friend is much better at characterization than I am. P: I look lazy compared to him.

If you're gonna have their parents die, then make the characters like Harry Potter, or Alek Hapsburg (who's parent's murder set off freaking World War I). You know, having no parents around is really convenient, but any chance you get you should give the character a mom and dad (or two of each) who raised them. If your character is an adult, then you should have no reason for dead parents, except for plot relevancy, or maybe being an orphan helped make them who they were, or place them where they are. Parental displacement still needs to be there somehow. Maybe the parents are the antagonists? Does the kid live in a boarding school or other location away from home? Are their parents just really, really busy? The kid could also leave home to go on an epic quest, leaving his parents behind. There are better ways to ditch those silly parental units.

And I know I don't like characters because I should feel bad for them. I like them because they are awesome. They could be the biggest, wangsty woobie in the world and still be an unlikable jerk. Now, characters who get past their problems and don't spend time dwelling on them and complaining, but actually doing stuff about it... that's what it's all about.

You're welcome!

And that's a good use of dramatically killed parents- plot catalyst. If writers are considering killing off a characters parents as backstory they should ask themselves the question "would the dead parents have an effect on the character's personality?" If the answer is no, don't kill them, think of another way to occupy them so they're out of the plot.

I agree, sympathy shouldn't be the only reason one should like a character. I like some woobie characters, but they tend to be the type of woobie that while they dwell on their problem, but also are inspired to do some good by it.

Well, that's exactly how I used mine.

I love either missing, or hopelessly busy parents (For example, Percy Jackson's mom was missing in the first book, Bobby Pendragon of Pendragon's whole family went missing, Coraline's parents were busy all the time). I think everyone can relate to the last one, because we've all done it;

You: "Mom... mom!"

Your Mom: "I'm busy, go away."

You:... *was going to ask, but runs outside anyway*

And when the kid is simply sent away is a nice parental avoidance tool as well.

*rambles* I remember from the same book Alek came from, Leviathan, only one the other character's parents died, and that was Dylan's father. I think that was a wee bit pointless, but it did help the two characters Bond Over Dead Parents (that is a trope, thus it is capitalized. It was well-used, by the way.), and it gave Deryn one less person to discover she was in the British air force instead of living with her older brother in Scotland. Something small like that is an okay excuse for death, too. As long as parental death is relevant to the character. Also, as much as I love Frodo, I found it odd and useless that his parents are dead too... or maybe that just put Bilbo in a position to raise him. I guess it depends on how you look at it. *shrug* But, angsting over a dead parent is a sign the author killed them for sympathy (Frodo didn't even know his parents, ...I think. I forget, but he didn't talk about them at all.) Or just angsting going over into wangsting territory is always bad, unless if it's a parody or something. Angst and characters is like salt and food. A little sprinkle adds flavor, but too much just tastes nasty, and whatever you dumped it on becomes inedible.

[Cholix-chan]

"Twilight iz teh bezt buk evur writin!!!!"

[Mage Luna]

Belethiel

Mage Luna

Belethiel

Mage Luna

@Shin Shiv Katana
Huh, that's strange. Even in my fantard days I had trouble rereading (I should have taken that as a sign).

@Belethiel and Minerva de Sade
Rape and dead parents bother me when it's just thrown in to make a character sympathetic or in the case of the latter to not have to deal with the character having parents.

Belethiel, you're doing a good job giving creative trauma that will probably have plot significance instead of an attempt to arouse sympathy from readers.

Thank you. ^_^

I haz revenge plotz. emotion_awesome Meh, my friend is much better at characterization than I am. P: I look lazy compared to him.

If you're gonna have their parents die, then make the characters like Harry Potter, or Alek Hapsburg (who's parent's murder set off freaking World War I). You know, having no parents around is really convenient, but any chance you get you should give the character a mom and dad (or two of each) who raised them. If your character is an adult, then you should have no reason for dead parents, except for plot relevancy, or maybe being an orphan helped make them who they were, or place them where they are. Parental displacement still needs to be there somehow. Maybe the parents are the antagonists? Does the kid live in a boarding school or other location away from home? Are their parents just really, really busy? The kid could also leave home to go on an epic quest, leaving his parents behind. There are better ways to ditch those silly parental units.

And I know I don't like characters because I should feel bad for them. I like them because they are awesome. They could be the biggest, wangsty woobie in the world and still be an unlikable jerk. Now, characters who get past their problems and don't spend time dwelling on them and complaining, but actually doing stuff about it... that's what it's all about.

You're welcome!

And that's a good use of dramatically killed parents- plot catalyst. If writers are considering killing off a characters parents as backstory they should ask themselves the question "would the dead parents have an effect on the character's personality?" If the answer is no, don't kill them, think of another way to occupy them so they're out of the plot.

I agree, sympathy shouldn't be the only reason one should like a character. I like some woobie characters, but they tend to be the type of woobie that while they dwell on their problem, but also are inspired to do some good by it.

Well, that's exactly how I used mine.

I love either missing, or hopelessly busy parents (For example, Percy Jackson's mom was missing in the first book, Bobby Pendragon of Pendragon's whole family went missing, Coraline's parents were busy all the time). I think everyone can relate to the last one, because we've all done it;

You: "Mom... mom!"

Your Mom: "I'm busy, go away."

You:... *was going to ask, but runs outside anyway*

And when the kid is simply sent away is a nice parental avoidance tool as well.

*rambles* I remember from the same book Alek came from, Leviathan, only one the other character's parents died, and that was Dylan's father. I think that was a wee bit pointless, but it did help the two characters Bond Over Dead Parents (that is a trope, thus it is capitalized. It was well-used, by the way.), and it gave Deryn one less person to discover she was in the British air force instead of living with her older brother in Scotland. Something small like that is an okay excuse for death, too. As long as parental death is relevant to the character. Also, as much as I love Frodo, I found it odd and useless that his parents are dead too... or maybe that just put Bilbo in a position to raise him. I guess it depends on how you look at it. *shrug* But, angsting over a dead parent is a sign the author killed them for sympathy (Frodo didn't even know his parents, ...I think. I forget, but he didn't talk about them at all.) Or just angsting going over into wangsting territory is always bad, unless if it's a parody or something. Angst and characters is like salt and food. A little sprinkle adds flavor, but too much just tastes nasty, and whatever you dumped it on becomes inedible.

Missing and busy are certainly nice, less drama, and you have characters who you can work with later.

His parents were dead? I haven't read/watched LotR in a while, but I seriously don't remember that, although I guess that explains why he lived with Bilbo.

[Belethiel]

Mage Luna

Belethiel

Mage Luna

Belethiel

Mage Luna

@Shin Shiv Katana
Huh, that's strange. Even in my fantard days I had trouble rereading (I should have taken that as a sign).

@Belethiel and Minerva de Sade
Rape and dead parents bother me when it's just thrown in to make a character sympathetic or in the case of the latter to not have to deal with the character having parents.

Belethiel, you're doing a good job giving creative trauma that will probably have plot significance instead of an attempt to arouse sympathy from readers.

Thank you. ^_^

I haz revenge plotz. emotion_awesome Meh, my friend is much better at characterization than I am. P: I look lazy compared to him.

If you're gonna have their parents die, then make the characters like Harry Potter, or Alek Hapsburg (who's parent's murder set off freaking World War I). You know, having no parents around is really convenient, but any chance you get you should give the character a mom and dad (or two of each) who raised them. If your character is an adult, then you should have no reason for dead parents, except for plot relevancy, or maybe being an orphan helped make them who they were, or place them where they are. Parental displacement still needs to be there somehow. Maybe the parents are the antagonists? Does the kid live in a boarding school or other location away from home? Are their parents just really, really busy? The kid could also leave home to go on an epic quest, leaving his parents behind. There are better ways to ditch those silly parental units.

And I know I don't like characters because I should feel bad for them. I like them because they are awesome. They could be the biggest, wangsty woobie in the world and still be an unlikable jerk. Now, characters who get past their problems and don't spend time dwelling on them and complaining, but actually doing stuff about it... that's what it's all about.

You're welcome!

And that's a good use of dramatically killed parents- plot catalyst. If writers are considering killing off a characters parents as backstory they should ask themselves the question "would the dead parents have an effect on the character's personality?" If the answer is no, don't kill them, think of another way to occupy them so they're out of the plot.

I agree, sympathy shouldn't be the only reason one should like a character. I like some woobie characters, but they tend to be the type of woobie that while they dwell on their problem, but also are inspired to do some good by it.

Well, that's exactly how I used mine.

I love either missing, or hopelessly busy parents (For example, Percy Jackson's mom was missing in the first book, Bobby Pendragon of Pendragon's whole family went missing, Coraline's parents were busy all the time). I think everyone can relate to the last one, because we've all done it;

You: "Mom... mom!"

Your Mom: "I'm busy, go away."

You:... *was going to ask, but runs outside anyway*

And when the kid is simply sent away is a nice parental avoidance tool as well.

*rambles* I remember from the same book Alek came from, Leviathan, only one the other character's parents died, and that was Dylan's father. I think that was a wee bit pointless, but it did help the two characters Bond Over Dead Parents (that is a trope, thus it is capitalized. It was well-used, by the way.), and it gave Deryn one less person to discover she was in the British air force instead of living with her older brother in Scotland. Something small like that is an okay excuse for death, too. As long as parental death is relevant to the character. Also, as much as I love Frodo, I found it odd and useless that his parents are dead too... or maybe that just put Bilbo in a position to raise him. I guess it depends on how you look at it. *shrug* But, angsting over a dead parent is a sign the author killed them for sympathy (Frodo didn't even know his parents, ...I think. I forget, but he didn't talk about them at all.) Or just angsting going over into wangsting territory is always bad, unless if it's a parody or something. Angst and characters is like salt and food. A little sprinkle adds flavor, but too much just tastes nasty, and whatever you dumped it on becomes inedible.

Missing and busy are certainly nice, less drama, and you have characters who you can work with later.

His parents were dead? I haven't read/watched LotR in a while, but I seriously don't remember that, although I guess that explains why he lived with Bilbo.

Yeah, Tolkien just mentioned it briefly, I think... I dunno, again Frodo never talked about his parents, if they are dead then he was too young to remember them when they died. I think they were on a boat in a river when it sank or something. :/ I'm not entirely sure about it, though.

I loved how Percy Jackson's parents were. His dad was a freaking GOD and as so was displaced from humanity, and his mom was kidnapped by Hades, and after that, Percy was sent to Camp Halfblood every year so she didn't appear in the books so often. I kinda want to do something like that one day.

[haunting heaven]

Quote:

I got angry because of you implying that because of marital status, it would be hard to prove that a man raped his wife, someone who he is supposed to have sex with. News Flash: It's not hard at all to prove that. We're in 2012 not 1962. If a man rapes his wife it is no harder to prove than other rape cases.

I'm gonna butt in here for just a moment. While I agree that Zenita implied something rather unfortunate when she said, "And Jacob when he was forcing himself on Bella, I just thought, 'well he's her friend, he can't be harming her in anyway,'" I do believe she is actually correct on the point that it's difficult to prove rape cases and even more difficult to prove marital rape--precisely because of her gut reaction that people who are close to you can't actually harm you. She's not the only one who feels that way. Depending on the source, the amount of reported rape cases that end with a conviction varies from around 6% to 15%--of the ones that ever actually make it court, it's about a fifty-fifty chance (and only about 15% of rapes get reported in the first place, partly because of this fear that people won't believe them). If a woman was raped by her husband? You better believe that they'll call into question her previous sexual activity with him and imply that it's a marital spat of some sort and she's just trying to pass off consensual sex as rape. We have this weird idea in our culture that women are more likely to be raped by the scary stranger than they are by someone close to them--even though the statistics say otherwise. But judges and juries enter into the courtroom with this kind of nonsense in their heads. Just look at the obsession our society has with the idea that women can falsely accuse men of rape. The same is true of any violent crime, but no one constantly calls the honesty of a mugging victim into question.

Belethiel

I love either missing, or hopelessly busy parents (For example, Percy Jackson's mom was missing in the first book, Bobby Pendragon of Pendragon's whole family went missing, Coraline's parents were busy all the time).

Busy parents is what I use for one of my characters, though since she has a caretaker who is a stronger father figure to her than her perpetually busy one, I didn't exactly use it as a parental-avoidance shtick.

On rape appearing in fiction as backstory, I think it's fine if it's done well--and not just in the case of an SVU type character. After all, people from all kinds of backgrounds are raped, and they do have to deal with the fallout of that. It just needs to be handled realistically.

[Belethiel]

haunting heaven

Quote:

Belethiel

I love either missing, or hopelessly busy parents (For example, Percy Jackson's mom was missing in the first book, Bobby Pendragon of Pendragon's whole family went missing, Coraline's parents were busy all the time).

Busy parents is what I use for one of my characters, though since she has a caretaker who is a stronger father figure to her than her perpetually busy one, I didn't exactly use it as a parental-avoidance shtick.

On rape appearing in fiction as backstory, I think it's fine if it's done well--and not just in the case of an SVU type character. After all, people from all kinds of backgrounds are raped, and they do have to deal with the fallout of that. It just needs to be handled realistically.

That's true, but making it relevant could be a problem. I know someone who writes pretty good realistic fiction, she wrote a story about a pregnant rape victim and did indeed handle it well. , in my opinion.

Someone who was a sex slave could also work, but could be done poorly. An excellent example of the sex slave backstory done well would be ( wahmbulance Hunger Games spoiler alert!): Finnick Odair.

I've been seeing it in role playing characters, but mostly done poorly. I've seen characters that were orphaned sex slaves with some tragic background. The only relevance we get out of that is endless wangst and unrealistic portrayals. One in my guild was a raped orphan, and she never, ever mentions it in the actual RP. It would be interesting if this character developed a phobia of sex or men, or men who resembled the person who raped her, but nooo... Otherwise, the character is okay as far as characterization, though. :/ Meh. (although, personally, I don't like her. I love her creator because she's my friend, but the character... no. Just no.)

[The Carnivorous Unicorn]

Lol this stuff worst twiligt argument eva1

[haunting heaven]

Belethiel

That's true, but making it relevant could be a problem. I know someone who writes pretty good realistic fiction, she wrote a story about a pregnant rape victim and did indeed handle it well. , in my opinion.

Someone who was a sex slave could also work, but could be done poorly. An excellent example of the sex slave backstory done well would be ( wahmbulance Hunger Games spoiler alert!): Finnick Odair.

I've been seeing it in role playing characters, but mostly done poorly. I've seen characters that were orphaned sex slaves with some tragic background. The only relevance we get out of that is endless wangst and unrealistic portrayals. One in my guild was a raped orphan, and she never, ever mentions it in the actual RP. It would be interesting if this character developed a phobia of sex or men, or men who resembled the person who raped her, but nooo... Otherwise, the character is okay as far as characterization, though. :/ Meh. (although, personally, I don't like her. I love her creator because she's my friend, but the character... no. Just no.)

Yes, relevance is important and often ignored. Though I suppose that's true of any background detail--particularly the traumatic ones. Like you guys have already mentioned, it does seem that backstory angst is often included as nothing more than a bid for sympathy. Or--in the case of a*****e type characters--it's included to excuse their horrible behavior. Like Jace in The Mortal Instruments.

To be fair, role playing is kind of a different animal. It's sometimes hard to bring up every point from the backstory when you're playing with others and you have less control over where the story goes. Though often it's just laziness. So I guess it depends.

Just curious, but what is it about the character that rubs you the wrong way? (People's opinions on characters and characterization fascinate me, haha.)

[Lady_Noctum]

The Carnivorous Unicorn

Lol this stuff worst twiligt argument eva1

Hey! Here's another one for the OP's list!
Thank you for the example Sweetness, but if you really wanted to add to the conversation you would add a caption for the reason you feel this sort of excerpt or argument is bland and pointless.