Jaden Kazega
haunting heaven
Lori is pissed off and angry. Does that mean she's always in the right? No. But everyone is so quick to put themselves into Shane's shoes and sympathize with
him (despite his sociopathic tendencies), and yet Lori is the horrible bad person who deserves most of the blame for the situation.
Excuse me if I can't take inconsistency seriously.
Who's being inconsistent? I was only mostly talking about Shane because he was the subject of the evening: my stance has always been that none is really at any more fault than the other, at least not to a huge degree.
So you didn't say, "Shane was pretty unreasonable too, although not nearly as much/as often as Lori"?
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I'm just saying don't demonize Shane while at the same time holding Lori up as some saint or victim.
Considering the fact I think she's neither and is, rather, a selfish, hypocritical person--and basically NO ONE in this forum thinks otherwise--I'm not sure what you're talking about. The issue I'm having is with everyone who tries to pin most of the blame onto Lori--especially when they try to paint her as being responsible for Shane's behavior.
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Both of them were at fault for what happened, since it takes two to have a relationship.
Um. Right. But we're not just talking about the relationship--we're also talking about the crap that happens once the relationship has been ended, and they both make huge mistakes.
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So it's a moot point, either way: she had no reason to think he told the truth, but how could he prove something like that?
He couldn't prove it, but he could wait until her initial anger passed and then try to explain what had happened. If he had just backed off on the relationship thing, too, she would have been more inclined to believe him, but since he continuously pushed for them to get back together, it shows to her that he doesn't really give a s**t about Rick.
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You mean, kind of like how Shane talked down to her and told HER how things were going to be when they were together? She only took control once they broke up. And, again, she had ever reason (at least in her mind) to be angry with him and every reason (in her mind) not to trust him. Funny how when she apologizes for this, everyone uses her apology as the "reason" Shane went postal.
I didn't bring up the apology at all: I know it's a dumb argument to say that somehow 'triggered' his last psychotic episode. Others do, I've seen it, and it doesn't make sense to me. Those are just people looking for any possible excuse to hate on Lori more.
I was referring to others. I realize that it hadn't come up in this conversation, but it's like Lori can't win.
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But why should she believe him? What reason has he given her to believe him? Again, just because we're aware that Shane didn't deliberately deceive her, she has no reason to believe that. You're judging her as if you assume she has the same information as the audience.
It's called trust? Benefit of the doubt?
I wouldn't be very much inclined to give Shane the benefit of the doubt if I were her. Maybe once I cooled off and thought about it, I would ask him what exactly happened and how he could have made the mistake he did, but Lori is never really given the chance to cool down. Shane just keeps pushing the issue.
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I don't know, this is something you can't really be right or wrong on: she has proof of needing to believe him or disbelieve him, so she just took the safer route. Anyone would.
So why do you think she is so much more unreasonable than Shane?
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Funny that Lori doesn't have it either. And, uh, I'm aware that Shane is only human. To some extent I can sympathize with him. However, there's a difference between making a mistake (believing Rick to be dead) and being a monster (trying to kill Rick, trying to rape Lori, etc.)
Again, just because I didn't mention the 'only human' defense when talking about Lori, that doesn't mean I don't believe it.
Ditto for me with Shane. You made an assumption about how I feel about Shane, so I did the same with you. Besides, you're agreeing with someone who is attempting to pass of most of the responsibility for what happened onto Lori, and you also claimed she was much more unreasonable than Shane--even though Shane was clearly irrational and starting to go insane--so I'm not really sure why you're taking issue with me pointing out that Lori never gets the "only human" defense.
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...they should have talked it over, yes. But Shane never bothered. At least Lori finally admitted it to Rick (who seemed to have already known).
I know, I mentioned that how he should have told him straight up, but never did. I think that was dumb and selfish of him, so a little bit of proof there as to why Lori couldn't trust him.
Well, at least we agree on this.
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Um. What exactly did Rick do wrong? He told Shane to back off, and he had every right to do that. In fact, he gave Shane more chances than he deserved. Are we seriously going to shoulder most of the blame on to Lori AND Rick and then fluff off most of Shane's responsibility? In my opinion,
Lori and Shane share the responsibility mostly equally, with a little bit more being on Shane's side since he doesn't know how to take "no" for an answer.
I dunno if I'm just talking around in circles or forgetting to bring up certain points, but this is basically what I'm trying to say. No one is innocent here.
Except for Rick. Who, really, should not be blamed for Lori and Shane's dancing around each other. And if that's what you're trying to say--which I have no problem with--I just don't get why you're agreeing with the person whom I initially quoted and saying that Lori is the more unreasonable of the two. That implies that most of the responsibility falls to her. :/
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So, Lori was supposed to let him think of the child as his and possibly disrupt her relationship with her husband? Imagine the kind of strain that would bring to a relationship.
Now, let's note something here. Everyone seems to think Lori behaved so much more badly than Shane, but while she certainly should have told her husband from the beginning, she wasn't the only one with knowledge of that secret, and she wasn't the only one who owed Rick an explanation. I don't recall Shane ever admitting anything to Rick either. Not only that, but Shane continued to pursue a relationship
with his best friend's wife even after Rick's return.
And as I said above, and as I
thought I was trying to point out (I guess I just did a poor job of articulating my thoughts), I agree. Again, my stance is no one is truly innocent in all of this. As for the child, well, unfortunately, they don't have access to a means as to determine who the father is. Is it really so wrong to deny him the option to at least be in the kid's life? I'm not saying cut off Rick or anything, but to blow Shane off away from what could
potentially be his own child is also wrong.
Well, again, it comes off as you saying Lori is mostly to blame when you say she's unreasonable and when you agree with someone who went on and on about how bad Lori is without addressing Shane's part in the whole mess. And when you're arguing with my point which is apparently basically your point. So, basically, since you argued with me to begin with, I assumed you were disagreeing with me.
Did either of them say he couldn't be in the child's life? I mean, there's a difference between being told that you can't be the father--no matter who is the bio-dad--and saying you can't have anything to do with the child.
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Um. He tried to force her into having sex. That's attempted rape. Why are you trying to fluff it off as something else? Then why try to play semantics at all? Also, do you not know what attempted rape is? And how do you define sexual assault?
Ok, I shouldn't have brought it up: being a law student, it's just a small nitpick of mine when people mix up terms, that's all. Like the difference between robbery and burglary, there's a difference between rape and sexual assault, but I shouldn't have even brought it up because it's pointless. I'm sorry.
There is a difference between rape and sexual assault. What he did IS sexual assault but it was also ATTEMPTED rape. He tried to rape, therefore he is an attempted rapist. Since he didn't actually complete the deed, he "only" sexually assaulted her, but that doesn't make it any less of an attempted rape. :/
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Uh. No. His being intoxicated doesn't excuse his behavior at all in any way. He's still an attempted rapist.
Why? So you're saying alcohol in no way impairs one's judgement or actions, but drugs do? Alright, I'll remember that the next time I want to slam down half a dozen cold ones, and the go out for an evening drive by the local school.
No, I'm saying both can impair judgment and actions
but only to a point. Like, if T-Dog were the one high on cocaine or whatever, I very much doubt he'd attempt to start a fight with Merle and take over the group. Likewise, if it were Rick who were drunk, he wouldn't have attempted to rape someone. Drugs and alcohol impair your judgment, but they don't make you into a totally different person. Also, uh, I never said Merle should get away with his behavior while high or get a pass for it. Or that he was any less of a racist, messed up a*****e. I only said he might be easier to reason with while sober. Likewise, Shane isn't going to go around raping people while sober, either. :/ So, once again, drugs and alcohol don't excuse criminal behavior, and therefore, what's the point of bringing it into the discussion?