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haunting heaven's avatar

Fanatical Firestarter

Sorairo-Sora Kazega
........sorry I don't really have much to add that Jaden hasn't already stated but, after seeing the first season of it, I must say, Lori really...how to put it...bullied shane mentally. I mean, yeah, Shane could be an a** at times, and even a bit douchy but, He didn't deserve the mental abuse she put him through and I have to admit, Rick wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for him, and neither would carl and lori. Shane stood up and did a lot of things the group didn't want to. Like when they had to tell Daryl about his brother and rick and T-dog were arguing over who should tell him. They hadn't really come to a full conclusion on that but when it came, Shane took control of it and decided to do it himself, instead of having either one of them do it.

Because attempting to rape someone doesn't qualify as abuse? And continuing to pursue someone when they've made it very clear that they don't want to have a relationship with you is just fine and dandy? Besides, what mental abuse did she actually put him through? The worst thing I can think of was Lori telling him to stay away from Carl and then whining when he stayed away from Carl.

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I know this isn't a thread about Shane so I will point out when Rick could and couldn't do things. I have noticed that he did rely on the group quite a bit for reassurance that what he was doing was right

What, you prefer his "this is not a democracy" mode?

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and he asked majority of the able bodied men to go with him to get the cahse of weapons as well as to look for Meryl.

No, he didn't. Daryl and T-Dog decided to come themselves. He may have asked Glen, since Glen was the most familiar with the city. That was it.

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He was also doing it for the radio in the bag that he gave the other one to the man and his son that helped him.

So, hey, another good reason for him to go, but you're saying it like we should condemn him for it.

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Because he asked that people go with him, the camp got attacked and they lost 15 people.

Correlation =/= causation.

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15 people that could have been saved if he hasn't taken 4 of the guys with him.

He took three men with him, and we have no idea if those three men would have necessarily made a difference if they were just as caught by surprise as everyone else. Remember, that was the main problem.

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Shane did warn him that if he did that, that it would leave the camp defenceless.

Maybe they should have had someone on lookout. So much for Shane's superb leadership skills.

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Granted, he has a point that if he hadn't come back in time with the guns that he had in the bag, there might have been a few more but, they all could have done just as well with the things they had there.

You're assuming that. You're also unfairly pinning the number of people on Rick. He's responsible for two (himself and Glen)--not Daryl and T-dog.

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When they were deciding to go to the CDC or not, he had to ask the group to make sure that this was what they all wanted. He needed that reassurance from everyone instead of just going with something.

Because he's not an a*****e? What is so wrong about addressing the wants and needs of the people you're leading?

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Though, I must admit, it worked out for him in the end to ask the group because a few of them did have other places they wanted to be but, still, he does this throught the show and even at the very end of season 2. He wasn't confident at all in what he decided,

Asking for opinions =/= a lack of confidence. The one time I remember him showing uncertainty was with his decision to look for Sophia.

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even though he was the one that told glen to start speaking his mind and to assert himself.

Speaking your mind and asserting yourself =/= a complete disregard for what others think.

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In season one, it seemed as though that the others made plans and he just kind of followed along with them.

Maybe because he really hadn't settled into the roll of leader yet?

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Yeah there were a few that he iniciated but, he was never the one that finished them or even perfected them.

Because people do better if they work together?

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at the end of season 1, he still seemed not too sure in what was going to happen or what the plan was from there. he still seemed lost.

Yeah, newsflash: It's a zombie apocalypse. NONE OF THEM ARE SURE AS TO WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO.

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Yes Rick had his moments but, he also had his bad points too.

No one claimed he was perfect.
haunting heaven's avatar

Fanatical Firestarter

Jaden Kazega

haunting heaven
She was under the impression that Shane lied to her about Rick being dead. And think about it--if you thought the man or woman you had formed a relationship with out of grief for your spouse lied about that spouse's death, what would you then think about that relationship and the person involved? She might have assumed he lied specifically to get rid of Rick and get with her.

While I agree she may have felt that way, after a few days you'd think she would've cooled down so they could actually have a calm and civilized discussion, but does she? No, because 'Lori knows best' -- funny how she acts like the queen bee like that.

Lori is pissed off and angry. Does that mean she's always in the right? No. But everyone is so quick to put themselves into Shane's shoes and sympathize with him (despite his sociopathic tendencies), and yet Lori is the horrible bad person who deserves most of the blame for the situation.

Excuse me if I can't take inconsistency seriously.

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Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that she never acted like an adult, and continuously threw a borderline tantrum at Shane whenever they were alone together, except for a precious few-ish times.

...She seemed to calm down fairly quickly. Remember, while it may seem like weeks to us because we have to wait on episodes, it really hasn't been that long.

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Lori always threw how 'he lied to her' in his face, and it took her towards almost halfway through season two to stop.

Again, not really that long, and again, he never actually gave her reason to think he hadn't lied. And the attempted RAPE didn't help either.

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From the very beginning, in season one, Lori never spoke to Shane, she spoke down to him and told him how things were going to be, and I'd even be inclined to believe that she just ignored whatever he said whenever he did try to speak with her.

You mean, kind of like how Shane talked down to her and told HER how things were going to be when they were together? She only took control once they broke up. And, again, she had ever reason (at least in her mind) to be angry with him and every reason (in her mind) not to trust him.

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Shane was just never right with her, he was always wrong, and she never stopped treating him like some sort of monster.

Funny how when she apologizes for this, everyone uses her apology as the "reason" Shane went postal.

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Whenever he tried to speak to her, you saw it: she'd roll her eyes and not take him seriously, and you think she's going to believe anything he has to say with an attitude like that? In one ear and out the other.

But why should she believe him? What reason has he given her to believe him? Again, just because we're aware that Shane didn't deliberately deceive her, she has no reason to believe that. You're judging her as if you assume she has the same information as the audience.

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Everyone loves to defend Rick for 'just being human', but oddly, Shane doesn't seem to have that luxury -- funny that lol.

Funny that Lori doesn't have it either. And, uh, I'm aware that Shane is only human. To some extent I can sympathize with him. However, there's a difference between making a mistake (believing Rick to be dead) and being a monster (trying to kill Rick, trying to rape Lori, etc.)

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Overall, the three of them just needed to talk things over like adults, but it was always 'he said, she said' up until Shane's death.

...they should have talked it over, yes. But Shane never bothered. At least Lori finally admitted it to Rick (who seemed to have already known).

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Shane could have made better decisions to be sure, such as just not opening that can of worms anyway, but like Lori, he thought Rick was dead, but what can you do?

Shane could have made better decisions AFTER the fact, too. Like, he could have backed off and let Lori cool down, and he could have been up front with Rick. He also could have stopped trying to pursue Lori period.

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Rick and Lori definitely could have handled the situation with Shane much more better in general: people have the right to be treated like a human being, instead of going through the emotional equivalent of having a brick being thrown their face.

Um. What exactly did Rick do wrong? He told Shane to back off, and he had every right to do that. In fact, he gave Shane more chances than he deserved. Are we seriously going to shoulder most of the blame on to Lori AND Rick and then fluff off most of Shane's responsibility? In my opinion, Lori and Shane share the responsibility mostly equally, with a little bit more being on Shane's side since he doesn't know how to take "no" for an answer.

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The thing with Lori's child possibly being his is just something else on an entirely different level, and probably the biggest contributor.

So, Lori was supposed to let him think of the child as his and possibly disrupt her relationship with her husband? Imagine the kind of strain that would bring to a relationship.

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Now, let's note something here. Everyone seems to think Lori behaved so much more badly than Shane, but while she certainly should have told her husband from the beginning, she wasn't the only one with knowledge of that secret, and she wasn't the only one who owed Rick an explanation. I don't recall Shane ever admitting anything to Rick either. Not only that, but Shane continued to pursue a relationship with his best friend's wife even after Rick's return.

Shane is also an attempted rapist. Funny how no one ever factors that in.

Actually, I was hoping you'd bring this up: it wasn't attempted rape, but sexual assault =P.

Um. He tried to force her into having sex. That's attempted rape. What are you trying to fluff it off as something else?

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Ok, yeah, not any better,

Then why try to play semantics at all? Also, do you not know what attempted rape is? And how do you define sexual assault?

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but I do agree that he should have told Rick everything. Like I said above, this was a really perfect case of what needed to be done: the three of the sit down and talk like adults about it and resolve any problems they may have, which doesn't involve anyone just ignoring whatever anyone else has to say, but unfortunately they never get that far.

Or Shane could have gone to Rick himself. He didn't have to have Lori with him.

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Though, since we were talking about Merle being high earlier, I guess it would be fair to bring up Shane's intoxication that night.

Uh. No. His being intoxicated doesn't excuse his behavior at all in any way. He's still an attempted rapist.
I've commented on the rape thing already. But NO Shane did not attempt to rape Lori. He made unwanted sexual advances, yes. But not to the degree to warrant rape. Like stated above it was a sexual assault. Yes, rape is a type of sexual assault but not all sexual assaults = rape.

And two, to be guilty of the full extent of a crime one has to prove the presence of intention. The reason why 'crimes of passion' or temporary insanity is recognized in a court of law is because the person is in such a chaotic mental or emotional state that their behavior exceeds the control of their intentions. Thus their actions from that point on are done without intention.

And lets be real. Shane is a very physical and capable man. If he WANTED to rape Lori she'd have been raped. In that situation there was little she could do to stop him but if you look at his face after she slaps him, its a look of complete and utter confusion. He looks lost and disconnected as if he came out of a deep trance or a daze. That was not the face of a person maliciously intent on violently raping someone. Again Shane was alone... while Rick was gone his only comfort was in Lori. And after the group defers to Rick's leadership over his own, he no long has a purpose to busy himself. He has a moment of weakness and tries to find comfort in the only place he knew to look... in Lori.

And I know yes, as a feminist you like to think that the reason why people can sympathize more with Lori than Shane is because he is a man. But that is just not the case. I mean I try to put myself in Lori's shoes... but I just can't find any real amount of redeeming qualities about her.

I mean, Rick dies. And usually I can over look a widow finding comfort in a time of weakness but even though she was, for the time, no longer a wife. She was STILL a mother. Her first priority should have been Carl, and though she didn't feel it necessary to properly mourn her husband she should have done so for her son's sake rather than latching on the the nearest man. If she didn't have any kids, fine, she can do what she wants but as a mother her actions don't only affect her but her child as well and she has to take that into serious consideration. Remember she didn't spread her legs after a few months, it was in the matter of a few days/a couple of weeks tops.

And that to me is Lori's problem. She's too dependent on being up under a man. Rather than woman up and take care of her own, she just made Shane the 'new' daddy and left everything to him. She's more interested in being a wife than being a mother. I mean I don't think there is an episode where Lori doesn't ask the group 2-3 times where Carl is. She's all too happy to play queen bee and fill the role of a matriarchal figure in the group but when it comes to being a mother to her own child she'd fails miserably. I mean you'd think she'd LEARN something after he got shot... nope. You'd think she'd LEARN something after seeing what happened to Sophia... nope. But let Rick disappear for more than 30 minutes and she'll straight up wreck a car for no good reason trying to find him.

And just as easy as it was for her to spread her legs to Shane and treat him like the new father of her son. Soon as Rick showed up she was just as quick to abandon him and drop him like a sack of puppies in deep river. She's consistently inconsistent. She goes on and on about how 'dangerous' Shane is and how much of a threat he is, but most of the times when Lori and Shane are alone together it is because LORI took it upon herself to be along him... not the other way around. And I'm sorry. That apologize was about as genuine as a 3 dollar bill. Anyone with common sense could see that Lori's 'apology' was more of an attempt to make HERSELF feel better than to make any real attempt in making things right. And it was a loaded apology at that. She started off semi-nice but soon as Shane let his guard down she just HAD to add in the little "and the baby is RICKS!" As if he hadn't heard them the first few dozen times they tried to tell him that a child that could be his was blatantly being taken from him.

But to tie into the topic of the discussion.
EVERYONE and their blind grandmothers could see Shane was starting to loose it. Everyone watching the show saw it. Everyone in the group saw it. Yet no one did ANYTHING to really try and help Shane. No one sat down with him and just said "Yo, Shane... you've been kinda teetering close to the edge the past few days...anything you wanna talk about or get off your chest." The didn't treat him like a person that made a mistake, they treated him like a dog that peed on the carpet. The only person who actually attempted to make a connection with him was Andrea to which Shane openly admitted to wishing he left with her when he had the chance.

And I think that was the center of Shane's frustration. Everyone was so quick to point out when something was wrong but just as quick to stick their thumbs up their asses and not do anything about it. I mean he had a point with Dale. If Dale REALLY and genuinely thought Shane was a threat... he should have shot him when he had the chance. But by not shooting him, he was letting his morality put the group in danger by letting a dangerous man coexist among them.

People saw there were things wrong being Carol and her husband... no one did anything.
People saw there were things wrong with walkers being in the barn... a lot of talk but no one did anything.
People saw there was something wrong with the whole Lori/Shane/Rick situation... everyone looked the other way.
People saw there was something wrong with Randall being in the group.. yet a lot of talk but no one did anything.
People saw the there was something wrong with putting so much effort in to looking for a girl after being gone for so long... yet no one did anything.

The reason I give both Rick AND Shane their due respect is that in a group of people content to sit back and let others make the choices for them. They both were the only ones who stood up and took on the task of making those choices.

Though I think Rick failed a few more times than that....

I mean he SHOULD have told the group about them being infected. I mean... imagine if Shane didn't make it back after Carl was shot. Carl dies... and Lori starts hamming it up holding and crying about her baby boy. And Carl being infected, reanimates... and bites Lori's face off. Really if Hershel, Rick, or Glen was shot in town and died. The other two facing the threat shooting at them would have their backs turned to someone who could reanimate and kill them both. Just about any situation where one person in the group died could have put the whole group at risk.

And Dale was right about Shane. His mentality was more suited for type of place the world had become. He was more of a leader, he knew that right and wrong was a luxury and necessary and unnecessary is what kept you alive. People didn't flock to Rick cause he was a 'better' leader.... his way was just more people friendly.

Rick focused on what the group wanted.
Shane focused on what the group needed.

But that to me is where Rick failed as a leader. He was TOO dependent on group consensus and on issues of morality he waffled endlessly until Shane snapped and just handled the situation for him. And I honestly think that is something Rick is used to. Having Shane around to be the bad guy for him. To do the things that people don't want to do but need to be done. Shane had that conviction to stand be his actions even if it meant the group didn't like him. He'd rather the group be alive and hate him than to like him but end up dying. Shane got his hands dirty so Rick didn't have to. Shane took the heat and Rick got the credit for 'cleaning up' Shane's mess.

Shane AND Rick would have been the perfect pair to lead the group if Lori didn't wedge herself between them. Shane was more suited to keep the group alive but Rick was more suited to keep the group together. Separately neither one of them were exceptional leaders, though neither one of them were bad either. And I really think that is what Shane pushing Rick to kill him was all about. Finally getting Rick to get his hands dirty and do what needed to be done. No asking the group about it, no putting Shane in a shed to think about it... but to deal with the situation right then and there. To see him as a threat and take him out. That is why when Rick snapped he didn't say "I killed my best friend....because he tried to kill me." he said "I killed my best friend.... FOR YOU PEOPLE." that is a recognition of sacrifice... not self-defense. And soon as Rick made a choice the group didn't like and decided to stick with it, Shane was right... he couldn't be the good guy all the times.. he couldn't be everyone's friend AND be the leader. So he put on his big boy pants and let his balls drop like King Kong on them bitches.

Though I was with Carol a little bit. There wasn't enough room in the working cars for everyone. If they were attacked again and had to run for it... people WERE going to be left behind. It was kind of a bad plan... but then as a leader you have to make those choices sometimes. A group of people working together on a bad plan is better than a bunch of people disagreeing over a number of good ones.
haunting heaven's avatar

Fanatical Firestarter

Jaden Kazega
haunting heaven
Lori is pissed off and angry. Does that mean she's always in the right? No. But everyone is so quick to put themselves into Shane's shoes and sympathize with him (despite his sociopathic tendencies), and yet Lori is the horrible bad person who deserves most of the blame for the situation.

Excuse me if I can't take inconsistency seriously.

Who's being inconsistent? I was only mostly talking about Shane because he was the subject of the evening: my stance has always been that none is really at any more fault than the other, at least not to a huge degree.

So you didn't say, "Shane was pretty unreasonable too, although not nearly as much/as often as Lori"?

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I'm just saying don't demonize Shane while at the same time holding Lori up as some saint or victim.

Considering the fact I think she's neither and is, rather, a selfish, hypocritical person--and basically NO ONE in this forum thinks otherwise--I'm not sure what you're talking about. The issue I'm having is with everyone who tries to pin most of the blame onto Lori--especially when they try to paint her as being responsible for Shane's behavior.

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Both of them were at fault for what happened, since it takes two to have a relationship.

Um. Right. But we're not just talking about the relationship--we're also talking about the crap that happens once the relationship has been ended, and they both make huge mistakes.

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So it's a moot point, either way: she had no reason to think he told the truth, but how could he prove something like that?

He couldn't prove it, but he could wait until her initial anger passed and then try to explain what had happened. If he had just backed off on the relationship thing, too, she would have been more inclined to believe him, but since he continuously pushed for them to get back together, it shows to her that he doesn't really give a s**t about Rick.

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You mean, kind of like how Shane talked down to her and told HER how things were going to be when they were together? She only took control once they broke up. And, again, she had ever reason (at least in her mind) to be angry with him and every reason (in her mind) not to trust him. Funny how when she apologizes for this, everyone uses her apology as the "reason" Shane went postal.

I didn't bring up the apology at all: I know it's a dumb argument to say that somehow 'triggered' his last psychotic episode. Others do, I've seen it, and it doesn't make sense to me. Those are just people looking for any possible excuse to hate on Lori more.

I was referring to others. I realize that it hadn't come up in this conversation, but it's like Lori can't win.

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But why should she believe him? What reason has he given her to believe him? Again, just because we're aware that Shane didn't deliberately deceive her, she has no reason to believe that. You're judging her as if you assume she has the same information as the audience.

It's called trust? Benefit of the doubt?

I wouldn't be very much inclined to give Shane the benefit of the doubt if I were her. Maybe once I cooled off and thought about it, I would ask him what exactly happened and how he could have made the mistake he did, but Lori is never really given the chance to cool down. Shane just keeps pushing the issue.

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I don't know, this is something you can't really be right or wrong on: she has proof of needing to believe him or disbelieve him, so she just took the safer route. Anyone would.

So why do you think she is so much more unreasonable than Shane?

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Funny that Lori doesn't have it either. And, uh, I'm aware that Shane is only human. To some extent I can sympathize with him. However, there's a difference between making a mistake (believing Rick to be dead) and being a monster (trying to kill Rick, trying to rape Lori, etc.)

Again, just because I didn't mention the 'only human' defense when talking about Lori, that doesn't mean I don't believe it.

Ditto for me with Shane. You made an assumption about how I feel about Shane, so I did the same with you. Besides, you're agreeing with someone who is attempting to pass of most of the responsibility for what happened onto Lori, and you also claimed she was much more unreasonable than Shane--even though Shane was clearly irrational and starting to go insane--so I'm not really sure why you're taking issue with me pointing out that Lori never gets the "only human" defense.

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...they should have talked it over, yes. But Shane never bothered. At least Lori finally admitted it to Rick (who seemed to have already known).

I know, I mentioned that how he should have told him straight up, but never did. I think that was dumb and selfish of him, so a little bit of proof there as to why Lori couldn't trust him.

Well, at least we agree on this.

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Um. What exactly did Rick do wrong? He told Shane to back off, and he had every right to do that. In fact, he gave Shane more chances than he deserved. Are we seriously going to shoulder most of the blame on to Lori AND Rick and then fluff off most of Shane's responsibility? In my opinion, Lori and Shane share the responsibility mostly equally, with a little bit more being on Shane's side since he doesn't know how to take "no" for an answer.

I dunno if I'm just talking around in circles or forgetting to bring up certain points, but this is basically what I'm trying to say. No one is innocent here.

Except for Rick. Who, really, should not be blamed for Lori and Shane's dancing around each other. And if that's what you're trying to say--which I have no problem with--I just don't get why you're agreeing with the person whom I initially quoted and saying that Lori is the more unreasonable of the two. That implies that most of the responsibility falls to her. :/

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So, Lori was supposed to let him think of the child as his and possibly disrupt her relationship with her husband? Imagine the kind of strain that would bring to a relationship.

Now, let's note something here. Everyone seems to think Lori behaved so much more badly than Shane, but while she certainly should have told her husband from the beginning, she wasn't the only one with knowledge of that secret, and she wasn't the only one who owed Rick an explanation. I don't recall Shane ever admitting anything to Rick either. Not only that, but Shane continued to pursue a relationship with his best friend's wife even after Rick's return.

And as I said above, and as I thought I was trying to point out (I guess I just did a poor job of articulating my thoughts), I agree. Again, my stance is no one is truly innocent in all of this. As for the child, well, unfortunately, they don't have access to a means as to determine who the father is. Is it really so wrong to deny him the option to at least be in the kid's life? I'm not saying cut off Rick or anything, but to blow Shane off away from what could potentially be his own child is also wrong.

Well, again, it comes off as you saying Lori is mostly to blame when you say she's unreasonable and when you agree with someone who went on and on about how bad Lori is without addressing Shane's part in the whole mess. And when you're arguing with my point which is apparently basically your point. So, basically, since you argued with me to begin with, I assumed you were disagreeing with me.

Did either of them say he couldn't be in the child's life? I mean, there's a difference between being told that you can't be the father--no matter who is the bio-dad--and saying you can't have anything to do with the child.

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Um. He tried to force her into having sex. That's attempted rape. Why are you trying to fluff it off as something else? Then why try to play semantics at all? Also, do you not know what attempted rape is? And how do you define sexual assault?

Ok, I shouldn't have brought it up: being a law student, it's just a small nitpick of mine when people mix up terms, that's all. Like the difference between robbery and burglary, there's a difference between rape and sexual assault, but I shouldn't have even brought it up because it's pointless. I'm sorry.

There is a difference between rape and sexual assault. What he did IS sexual assault but it was also ATTEMPTED rape. He tried to rape, therefore he is an attempted rapist. Since he didn't actually complete the deed, he "only" sexually assaulted her, but that doesn't make it any less of an attempted rape. :/

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Uh. No. His being intoxicated doesn't excuse his behavior at all in any way. He's still an attempted rapist.

Why? So you're saying alcohol in no way impairs one's judgement or actions, but drugs do? Alright, I'll remember that the next time I want to slam down half a dozen cold ones, and the go out for an evening drive by the local school.

No, I'm saying both can impair judgment and actions but only to a point. Like, if T-Dog were the one high on cocaine or whatever, I very much doubt he'd attempt to start a fight with Merle and take over the group. Likewise, if it were Rick who were drunk, he wouldn't have attempted to rape someone. Drugs and alcohol impair your judgment, but they don't make you into a totally different person. Also, uh, I never said Merle should get away with his behavior while high or get a pass for it. Or that he was any less of a racist, messed up a*****e. I only said he might be easier to reason with while sober. Likewise, Shane isn't going to go around raping people while sober, either. :/ So, once again, drugs and alcohol don't excuse criminal behavior, and therefore, what's the point of bringing it into the discussion?
haunting heaven's avatar

Fanatical Firestarter

Jaden Kazega

What's with the new post? You went back and edited everything to be way more antagonistic. Why?

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I just think she could have been more reasonable, and I think Shane could have been less psychotic and had much more control of himself.

Yeah, so, why are you claiming Lori is more to blame than Shane? Or at least implying as much when you say she was the more unreasonable of the two (combined with all your defense of Shane in other threads, it comes off as you seeing Shane as being rational and Lori as the only instigator of drama).

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Also, if you want to know what I was exactly blaming Rick for, it's about the child.

His wife, his kid. Sorry, but unless Lori chooses to include Shane as a parent, Shane doesn't really have any rights to the kid.

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Is it really so wrong to deny him the option to at least be in the kid's life?

How could they deny him this? Lori pretty much sucked at denying him access to Carl, anyway, so I don't see much a difference with the baby.

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So, do we have that established now? Both of their faults, could have been worked out, both made mistakes, Lori was being unreasonable, Shane was being a psychotic douche, and ultimately both were acting like children.

And this is how I feel about the whole thing. Again, you implied that you held a very different stance when you not only agreed with Ninja kelpie, but claimed that Lori was the more unreasonable of the two. What did you mean by that?

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Alright, I really didn't want to bring this up, but I need some clarification on this: are you saying that alcohol in no way impairs one's judgement or actions? While at the same time, earlier in this very thread, you mentioned wondering how Merle would have been if he weren't under the influence of drugs? I'm just really confused about what you're trying to say here. Alcohol and drugs both impair your judgement, response times, and cognitive processes, so if Shane is completely at fault about what he did to Lori, then that means I was right about Merle being completely at fault for his actions too....

I already explained this, but I have to say that you really read way too much into my claim that his being intoxicated didn't make him any less of an attempted rapist. :/ I don't know how you get "alcohol doesn't impair judgment" out of me saying "alcohol isn't an excuse."
haunting heaven's avatar

Fanatical Firestarter

Lyes
I've commented on the rape thing already. But NO Shane did not attempt to rape Lori. He made unwanted sexual advances, yes. But not to the degree to warrant rape. Like stated above it was a sexual assault. Yes, rape is a type of sexual assault but not all sexual assaults = rape.

I'm not reading the rest of this post because I know it's going to be full of your typical bullshit, and it's not worth my time, but I'll address this part right here.

NO ONE SAID IT WAS RAPE.

Do you not see the word "attempted" in "attempted rape"? He attempted to force her to have sex. That's attempted rape. End. Of. ********. Story.
Sorairo-Sora Kazega's avatar

Beloved Lover

haunting heaven
Lyes
I've commented on the rape thing already. But NO Shane did not attempt to rape Lori. He made unwanted sexual advances, yes. But not to the degree to warrant rape. Like stated above it was a sexual assault. Yes, rape is a type of sexual assault but not all sexual assaults = rape.

I'm not reading the rest of this post because I know it's going to be full of your typical bullshit, and it's not worth my time, but I'll address this part right here.

NO ONE SAID IT WAS RAPE.

Do you not see the word "attempted" in "attempted rape"? He attempted to force her to have sex. That's attempted rape. End. Of. ********. Story.


ok I'm tired of your "attempted rape" bullshit,

Attempted rape is the startning to sexual intercours, meaning he would have to stick his into hers, or at least try to. Now, I didn't see him pull down her pants, I didn't see him pull down her panties or whatever, I didn't see him lifting up her nightshirt to get access I didn't see him unzipping himself or even attempt to whip out his friend there. Hell, he didnt' even come into the room with his pants unzipped or off to begin with.

He touched her

He placed his hand downstairs and cupped her from without her pants and even on the outside of the shirt. He didn't try to insert anything into anyone nor did he try to pull her underwear down.

That is the difference between sexual assult and attempted rape.

Get. It. Right.

I would say please leave, you are not welcomed here any longer but, this isn't my thread.
haunting heaven
Lyes
I've commented on the rape thing already. But NO Shane did not attempt to rape Lori. He made unwanted sexual advances, yes. But not to the degree to warrant rape. Like stated above it was a sexual assault. Yes, rape is a type of sexual assault but not all sexual assaults = rape.

I'm not reading the rest of this post because I know it's going to be full of your typical bullshit, and it's not worth my time, but I'll address this part right here.

NO ONE SAID IT WAS RAPE.

Do you not see the word "attempted" in "attempted rape"? He attempted to force her to have sex. That's attempted rape. End. Of. ********. Story.


Are you not aware of the difference between sexual assault and rape?

Calling anyone who sexually assaults someone a rapist is like calling anyone who commits a violent act a murderer.

The as there are different degrees of violence and everyone that assaults someone isn't called an attempted murderer. There are different degrees of sexual harassment and everyone that sexually assaults someone is necessarily a rapist.

You might call my rantings bullshit... and the difference between me and you is that I can recognize a majority of the things I say sometimes are out of my a**. This is a Gaia form about a TV show, I come here to unwind, share some ideas but have a little fun in the process. If I wanted a no holds barred, serious discussion on the matter, there are better places for me to go. You seem to be content to hanging around little kiddy forums and act like the big fish in a small pond. Talking about all the big 'adult' topics that makes you feel important thinking no one can challenge your logic or perspective and when someone does you get pissy.

But you are just a hypocrite. You are SO quick to hop on the literal definition of words when arguing the improper use of words like slut when unjustly used against women but just as quick to improperly use a word like rape if it can make your point sound more dramatic. To you a point is only as valid as it can be used to prove yourself right or the other person wrong. Anything that does otherwise is irrelevant to you and conveniently labeled as bullshit.

You wanna know why people don't bring it up. Because it wasn't a big deal. Even Lori knew Shane wasn't in his right mind at that moment. That is why after the got out of the CDC and Shane made his mind up to leave the group... it was LORI who encouraged him to stay. Now, I'm not saying that he was justified or that it makes what he did any better or worse. Shane was WRONG and you are right... under no circumstance should a man OR a woman sexually impose themselves on anyone who is clearly unwilling. But lets call it what it is rather than trying to make it out into something that it was not. And rape... attempted or otherwise, is what NOT.

So please, if you want to have a serious discussion, respectful or disrespectful, address me seriously. If not, do me and yourself a favor and just continue to ignore me and my copious amounts of bullshit.

Thank you and have a nice day.
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haunting heaven
Ninja kelpie
Okay. The thing with Lori.

Lori arguably is not a loose woman. however she presents herself as loose in the way she handles the situation with Rick and Shane.

Le Reason for above statement:

Lori thinks Rick is dead. Over time she builds a relationship with shane. This is acceptable. Rick comes back. Lori is happy (?) as she should be. But instead of cutting off her new relationship with Shane and being open from the start about what happened she brutally ignores Shane and pretends that their relationship never existed. Also she cuts off Shanes relationship with Carl. Which is a bitchy move. Why can't Shane still exist as a friend mentor?

She was under the impression that Shane lied to her about Rick being dead. And think about it--if you thought the man or woman you had formed a relationship with out of grief for your spouse lied about that spouse's death, what would you then think about that relationship and the person involved? She might have assumed he lied specifically to get rid of Rick and get with her.

Quote:
Then later after the CDC when talking to Shane she goes "i thought we had something"

Lori should have been clear about Shane the moment Rick came back. All this hiding and secret keeping and tip toeing around is nuts. and using carl as a bartering chip go between the whole time was nuts too.

badly done lori badly done

Now, let's note something here. Everyone seems to think Lori behaved so much more badly than Shane, but while she certainly should have told her husband from the beginning, she wasn't the only one with knowledge of that secret, and she wasn't the only one who owed Rick an explanation. I don't recall Shane ever admitting anything to Rick either. Not only that, but Shane continued to pursue a relationship with his best friend's wife even after Rick's return.

Shane is also an attempted rapist. Funny how no one ever factors that in.


Lie or not to pretend that a relationship never existed and to avoid confrontation while anger and weirness grows is just foolish and stupid. I'm not mad about Lori snubbing Shane, who was kind of an a** from the beggining even when he was "good", I'm angry that she did'nt sit down with Rick and Shane and be like "yo this is what happened, now lets find a way to deal with it".

Also why should I mention shane as a rapist? Everyone saw him grab her on the screen. Everyone knows he wants lori's bod. To be crass in my speaking. I don't think Shane is blameless. He has his own batch of crazy. I mean his final reaction was Kill anyone that gets in the way of me having lori. YES shane is extreame.

The fact remains that if Lori wouldn't be so squeamish about confronting the akwardness of her relationships things would be better. I'm 85% sure that if she had told Rick from the get go, and sat down with Rick and Shane and explained and worked everything out then we wouldn't have dead crazy shane, and the ricktatorship.

In conlclusion there is no room for secrets when your groups life is always in danger, and Lori keeps way too many secrets.

It doesn't make her a slut. just very unreliable.
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I apologize for the funky grammer and word structure in my reply to your quote.

I tend to get slightly agitated when arguments are chopped up and not put into paragraph form.
(since we are talking about nitpicks and all.)

Instead of squabbling about legal terms (ugh) lets call what shane did to lori "inappropriate touching."

Okay. so to put what I said earlier in a clearer way, I'm just not pleased with how the three- with a focus on lori- handled the problem. Now I don't like Shane too much. People who get panicy and animalistic when under adrenaline stress me out and Shane is one of those. However, I will give him credit because he did try to talk things out with Lori. I can also give credit to Rick becasue he talked things out with shane. (even if it was too late)

BUT!

Not one of them tried to get all three of them together for one talk. So what was ment in good intentions turned into a very middle school "he said she said"

All three handled the situation between them cowardly.


Now. One tiny nitpick. While its okay to say "they are only human" being only human does not give you permission to act like middle schoolers for TWO WHOLE SEASONS! burning_eyes
haunting heaven's avatar

Fanatical Firestarter

Lyes
haunting heaven
Lyes
I've commented on the rape thing already. But NO Shane did not attempt to rape Lori. He made unwanted sexual advances, yes. But not to the degree to warrant rape. Like stated above it was a sexual assault. Yes, rape is a type of sexual assault but not all sexual assaults = rape.

I'm not reading the rest of this post because I know it's going to be full of your typical bullshit, and it's not worth my time, but I'll address this part right here.

NO ONE SAID IT WAS RAPE.

Do you not see the word "attempted" in "attempted rape"? He attempted to force her to have sex. That's attempted rape. End. Of. ********. Story.


Are you not aware of the difference between sexual assault and rape?

Aaaaand... Not replying to the rest again. Never said it was rape, so this is irrelevant and only proves further that you don't know what I'm saying, therefore you clearly don't know what you're saying, either. Now, run along, little boy, and take your lack of reading comprehension with you.

Sorairo-Sora Kazega
ok I'm tired of your "attempted rape" bullshit,

Attempted rape is the startning to sexual intercours,

It's the attempt to rape someone.

Quote:
meaning he would have to stick his into hers,

That would cease to be attempted rape.

Quote:
or at least try to.

So, what you're saying is that for it to be attempted rape in your opinion, the man literally has to get to the point where he is trying to put his d**k into his victim. Do you not know what intent is?

Quote:
Now, I didn't see him pull down her pants, I didn't see him pull down her panties or whatever, I didn't see him lifting up her nightshirt to get access I didn't see him unzipping himself or even attempt to whip out his friend there. Hell, he didnt' even come into the room with his pants unzipped or off to begin with.

He was certainly trying to get under that nightshirt and to her underwear--the only reason he didn't get to pull them down is because she kept shoving his hand away.

Quote:
He touched her

He placed his hand downstairs and cupped her from without her pants and even on the outside of the shirt. He didn't try to insert anything into anyone nor did he try to pull her underwear down.

She scratched him and he came to his senses before it got far enough for him to attempt to insert anything into her, but that doesn't change the intent of what he was trying to do.

Quote:
I would say please leave, you are not welcomed here any longer but, this isn't my thread.

I would say, "Please respond to my actual argument," but you won't because you don't have one of your own.

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