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Ever justified?

I doubt many people would know about the minor furore rippling through Australia at the moment regarding the Australian Attorney-general, Phillip Ruddock (the Liberal politician who bears a striking resemblence to Darth Sidius). The Attorney-general's job is to uphold national security, laws and to take care of things during an emergancy situation. Anyway, Ruddock is of the opinion that sleep deprevation is not an act of torture. Naturally, Ruddock and other politicians are relying on the arguement that torture or "aggressive interogation techniques" (that's what sleep deprevation is apparently classified as) is a means to an ends. With the information obtained it's possible thousands of live could be saved.

What's your opinion?
In this day and age is torture justified?
What constitutes torture?
What's your country's stance?
My opinion:
As much as I hate to admit it, I think there are ocassions where torture can be justified, but it makes me sick to my stomach. The fact that torture is stictly governed by laws and protocols (at least in most countries) does nothing to calm my discomfort with what people are doing. Torture is inhumane, but in the past it has saved lives as well as claiming them.

I think Ruddock is a complete fool for thinking sleep deprevation isn't torture. Sleep deprevation is one of the most insidious forms of torture because it effects the person mentally and it leaves no physical marks.
SwampRabbit
My opinion:
As much as I hate to admit it, I think there are ocassions where torture can be justified, but it makes me sick to my stomach. The fact that torture is stictly governed by laws and protocols (at least in most countries) does nothing to calm my discomfort with what people are doing. Torture is inhumane, but in the past it has saved lives as well as claiming them.

I think Ruddock is a complete fool for thinking sleep deprevation isn't torture. Sleep deprevation is one of the most insidious forms of torture because it effects the person mentally and it leaves no physical marks.


Torture has just been legalized in the US, and it's definition and application left to the discretion of the President.

These are scary times for us all.... very scary... eek
The fundamental problem with torture is that it does not necessarily reveal any enemy secrets as they would have you believe. If you torture somebody enough, they will admit that you are a nine-legged horse with saddlebags filled with feces(where I come from we have many colorful folk expressions).

It just doesn't work. Plus, torturing somebody sure as hell doesn't look good when your country is supposed to be the "Shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere."

(that quote was Ronald Reagan)

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SwampRabbit
Ever justified?

No.

Quote:
"aggressive interogation techniques"
Heh. The same everywhere.

Torture is the act of intentionally inflicting physical or mental suffering on someone else, usually for purposes of coercion. (Torture is also practiced by sadists, for personal pleasure.)

It takes innumerable forms, thus they could not all be listed. Beatings; dismemberment; sleep deprivation; deprivation of food, water, or air, even for relatively short periods; the taking of hostages; threats, even if not ultimately carried out; the nonconsensual administration of drugs or alcohol; acts (or threats) of rape; the infliction of physical pain, even without creating marks on or damage to the body (such as with some voltages of electricity); sensory deprivation; humiliation; prolonged situations of discomfort. Others are more imaginative than I am myself in concocting and performing acts of torture, but I could go on.

There are several endemic problems with committing torture.

The first is that it inflicts usually severe and prolonged suffering on other human beings. This is extremely disruptive not only to their life functions, in most cases, but also (always) to their mental state. Not only to do so, but to do so knowing the result, is monstrous.

Second, the information and concessions which might be gained through torture are unreliable. "Waterboarding," for example, was in use during the Salem Witch Trials; the victims of those trials, under coercion and torture, often confessed not only to crimes which they did not commit, but to crimes which were in all likelihood fundamentally impossible for them to have committed. If I could force a confession to sexual congress with The Judeo-Christian Devil from a prisoner, I could force a confession to anything from a prisoner - hence, force is not the proper avenue toward extracting confessions. (As a result of this principle, our American intelligence agencies place a very low trust threshold on "HUMINT." Although it is apparently coming into its own as an interrogation technique, these days.)

Perhaps worst of all, to commit acts of torture and to condone them disregards everything we have so far come to believe about our universal human rights. To condone torture in one situation, we enable its possible use in any situation, given time and gravity. Suppose; today, this minute, people are turning the switch in their brains which says that to torture a man (in some manner) to potentially save millions of lives (This is what has been called the "nuclear terrorist" scenario) would be acceptable. Once that switch is turned, not only in the collective unconscious but in the law, the precedent is set for the other switches being turned. For a hundred thousand lives? For fifty thousand? For one thousand? It's like that old joke. ("Would you sleep with me if I gave you a million dollars?" "Yes, I suppose that I would." "How about for five dollars?" "What do you think I am, making an offer like that?" "We've already established what you are, now we're haggling over the price." wink

For one? Suppose that a child has gone missing, and we take a man into custody who we believe might know his location. Should we strap him into a chair with a painful (but not damaging) electric current being fed into his genitals? We could save a life. He might know something, and we're not wringing what he might know from him like blood from a stone. Is that not a failure? Is not every life precious, and is not every potential innocent more precious than every potential guilty life?

I say no. There must be other and better ways to save lives, and to condone it once is to condone it again. I cannot and will not stand for torture becoming a means to an end, no matter how noble we may believe that end to be.

SwampRabbit
Torture is inhumane, but in the past it has saved lives as well as claiming them.
When, where? Whose lives are these?
I should have worded that more carefully because I don't know any significant examples off the top of my head, I should have also said that acts of torture have condemed many lives as well.
Well I can say that torture can sometimes be justified, you want something from a well trained soldier you're gonna have to pry it out of him. Sure there are other means first but torture should be last.

In the case of detainees, they are not part of any specific combat group thus they do not abide under the Geneva covention, so torture could be used on them.
Jin Won

In the case of detainees, they are not part of any specific combat group thus they do not abide under the Geneva covention, so torture could be used on them.

They are part of the human species, and thus are (or should be) given basic human rights. :/

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I'mma guess this came from the ED, which is quite scary. sad

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Mysty1
SwampRabbit
My opinion:
As much as I hate to admit it, I think there are ocassions where torture can be justified, but it makes me sick to my stomach. The fact that torture is stictly governed by laws and protocols (at least in most countries) does nothing to calm my discomfort with what people are doing. Torture is inhumane, but in the past it has saved lives as well as claiming them.

I think Ruddock is a complete fool for thinking sleep deprevation isn't torture. Sleep deprevation is one of the most insidious forms of torture because it effects the person mentally and it leaves no physical marks.


Torture has just been legalized in the US, and it's definition and application left to the discretion of the President.

These are scary times for us all.... very scary... eek

Bush wants to torture people. rolleyes
Soul Asphyxiation
I'mma guess this came from the ED, which is quite scary. sad


that's what I was thinking....

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dragonprincess11
Soul Asphyxiation
I'mma guess this came from the ED, which is quite scary. sad


that's what I was thinking....
I had a choice to go to either ED or GD. I picked GD because there was this girl in ED that completely and utterly ripped this one guy apart in a thread and I was like "******** that, this elitist debating isn't for me!"
Soul Asphyxiation
dragonprincess11
Soul Asphyxiation
I'mma guess this came from the ED, which is quite scary. sad


that's what I was thinking....
I had a choice to go to either ED or GD. I picked GD because there was this girl in ED that completely and utterly ripped this one guy apart in a thread and I was like "******** that, this elitist debating isn't for me!"


their's like 3 peole trying to get me to come into ED, but when I came to see the post and responses, I was like eek , and ran here, same 3 people are constantly trying to get me into it... xp
Extreme times call for extreme measures. As long as Im on the dealing side, I dont see a thing wrong with torture.

It all depends on your relativity. Many people have used torture and been tried for torture under "war crimes". But what is a "war crime" is left up to the winner of the war. ((See WWII)).

In 20 years no one is going to care as all the history and text books will be re-witten.

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Jin Won
Well I can say that torture can sometimes be justified, you want something from a well trained soldier you're gonna have to pry it out of him. Sure there are other means first but torture should be last.

See though, we're only allowed to ask for his name, rank, and serial number, if we're expecting him to provide a response. He can volunteer all the information he wants, you just can't rob him of it.

Jin Won
In the case of detainees, they are not part of any specific combat group thus they do not abide under the Geneva covention, so torture could be used on them.

I'd argue that Common Article 3 applies nonetheless, since a detainee is by default "placed hors de combat" by detention.

That is, of course, the "bare minimum" article, which doesn't say anything about what kind of combatant you are, or what behaviors you were involved in, but merely that you are a prisoner, and are not to be abused by your captors.

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