Yugioh Staples Discussion

[Lord Tomo AN]

Originality. Everyone nowadays uses these cards. Why not try to be different rather than conform to what everyone else uses?

Willexia Rennar

Dark Hunter Akala

How is because they win games not a logical argument?

This may be the most important question in this thread, in all honesty.


The simple fact of the matter is, staples become staples because they work efficiently in a vast majority of decks. They have proven their worth time and again over the years, they form a solid base to start building a deck on, and, in many cases, they're quite easy to get a hold of. Mystical Space Typhoon, for example, has been reprinted as a Common card in over 15 Starter/Structure Decks.


You asked for logical reasons to include staple cards in your deck...but let's be real here; is there a logical reason not to?

[Necrodancer Ghost]

Because playing to win means using what works best, and a lot of times there's not much room for originality if you plan to play for money and prizes and an invite to Nationals or Worlds.

Why use the inferior option?

[Lord Tomo AN]

Yes but if they can stand on their own without these cards, then why put them in? you have to remember that u can only have so many cards in ur deck. if u put these cards in, you'll basically be replacing the themed deck with those staples. In doing this, you may be totally missing out on some of the best strategies included in the deck.

Willexia Rennar

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

Also, you obviously have not played against decks like gusto, ice barrier, fabled, nordic, etc. that dont need these cards. These decks can be incredibly hard to beat, as they will negate or get around the effects of most staples, forcing you to actually use strategy to win against them.

Or just use the superior speed and versatility of decks not tied down to an archetype to squash them before they can get much going.

Also, just because a deck doesn't need a staple doesn't mean it doesn't benefit more from having them. Take an Amazoness Deck, for example. They can work with Amazoness Willpower, but that doesn't change the fact that Call of the Haunted is a far better option.

[Lord Tomo AN]

why is a deck that can win these competitions that is also a pure deck inferior?

Lindsays Trachea

Because playing to win means using what works best, and a lot of times there's not much room for originality if you plan to play for money and prizes and an invite to Nationals or Worlds.

Why use the inferior option?

[Lord Tomo AN]

but if u know everyone uses these cards, then ur at an advantage if u dont, because u can build ur deck against those staples. you'll win against everyone, because they all essentially use the same cards.

Lindsays Trachea

Because playing to win means using what works best, and a lot of times there's not much room for originality if you plan to play for money and prizes and an invite to Nationals or Worlds.

Why use the inferior option?

[Willexia Rennar]

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

Because many other cards win games. Any monster with any amount of attack could win a game.

Assuming they can ever touch your opponent, yes. Technically speaking, a Zone Eater can defeat your opponent all on its own if you play it the first turn, attack directly with it for every turn, and your opponent never does anything.

In the same vein, you could technically win a military battle with a single Sailor barely trained in firearms combat if all the circumstances in the universe lined up properly...but if you could just as easily call SEAL Team 6 in, why wouldn't you?

Quote:

Originality. Everyone nowadays uses these cards. Why not try to be different rather than conform to what everyone else uses?

Speaking from years of personal experience on that exact subject, it's simply because against things that have been tried and proven successful, originality gets d**k-stomped 99.9% of the time, often quite quickly and quite brutally...where the fun in that?

Might as well ask why Jimmy Stewart doesn't show up to Daytona in a Prius rather than his usual NASCAR fare; after all, if things go just right for him, he could still win the race.



Something to consider before making any further replies: You're asking a group of people who, for the most part, are heavily tournament-minded; people who play by Advanced Format rules in regards to what cards can and can't be used in our decks, people who go to events with hundreds or thousands of other players, and pay a fair amount just to get to such events. If you're going to do all that, there is no sense whatsoever in not doing everything you can give yourself the best chance of winning.

I speak from nothing more than years of personal experience on this matter, having gone through pretty much your exact mindset. I've gone to events like that with decks of my own design...a deck focused primarily on Relinquished, a Harpy deck, a Gigaplant-centered burn deck, even one where every card in it was themed on holding something. (Jars, pots, holes in the ground, chests, etc.)

The end result was the same every time: I'd go 3-4 rounds going 0-2 each match, never scoring a win, many times never even getting a single bit of damage in on my opponents, get pissed off at how badly I was getting crushed, quit, and go home feeling like a complete dumbass, not having been able to enjoy myself at all.

Once I gave up on being completely original and started including the things that everyone else used, my performances at such events improved significantly, and while I still never won a tournament, I was at least able to hold my own and have a good deal of fun.

[Lord Tomo AN]

unless ur using exodia, final countdown, destiny board, wave motion cannon, or other cards that dont need staples.

Willexia Rennar

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

Because many other cards win games. Any monster with any amount of attack could win a game.

Assuming they can ever touch your opponent, yes. Technically speaking, a Zone Eater can defeat your opponent all on its own if you play it the first turn, attack directly with it for every turn, and your opponent never does anything.

In the same vein, you could technically win a military battle with a single Sailor barely trained in firearms combat if all the circumstances in the universe lined up properly...but if you could just as easily call SEAL Team 6 in, why wouldn't you?

Quote:

Originality. Everyone nowadays uses these cards. Why not try to be different rather than conform to what everyone else uses?

Speaking from years of personal experience on that exact subject, it's simply because against things that have been tried and proven successful, originality gets d**k-stomped 99.9% of the time, often quite quickly and quite brutally...where the fun in that?

Might as well ask why Jimmy Stewart doesn't show up to Daytona in a Prius rather than his usual NASCAR fare; after all, if things go just right for him, he could still win the race.



Something to consider before making any further replies: You're asking a group of people who, for the most part, are heavily tournament-minded; people who play by Advanced Format rules in regards to what cards can and can't be used in our decks, people who go to events with hundreds or thousands of other players, and pay a fair amount just to get to such events. If you're going to do all that, there is no sense whatsoever in not doing everything you can give yourself the best chance of winning.

I speak from nothing more than years of personal experience on this matter, having gone through pretty much your exact mindset. I've gone to events like that with decks of my own design...a deck focused primarily on Relinquished, a Harpy deck, a Gigaplant-centered burn deck, even one where every card in it was themed on holding something. (Jars, pots, holes in the ground, chests, etc.)

The end result was the same every time: I'd go 3-4 rounds going 0-2 each match, never scoring a win, many times never even getting a single bit of damage in on my opponents, get pissed off at how badly I was getting crushed, quit, and go home feeling like a complete dumbass, not having been able to enjoy myself at all.

Once I gave up on being completely original and started including the things that everyone else used, my performances at such events improved significantly, and while I still never won a tournament, I was at least able to hold my own and have a good deal of fun.

[Lord Tomo AN]

and if u dnt believe me when i say that you dont need staples to kick a**, then i can prove it to u on duelingnetwork.com

ill prove it by dueling against u on that website with my pure decks that have no staples in them whatsoever

Willexia Rennar

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

Because many other cards win games. Any monster with any amount of attack could win a game.

Assuming they can ever touch your opponent, yes. Technically speaking, a Zone Eater can defeat your opponent all on its own if you play it the first turn, attack directly with it for every turn, and your opponent never does anything.

In the same vein, you could technically win a military battle with a single Sailor barely trained in firearms combat if all the circumstances in the universe lined up properly...but if you could just as easily call SEAL Team 6 in, why wouldn't you?

Quote:

Originality. Everyone nowadays uses these cards. Why not try to be different rather than conform to what everyone else uses?

Speaking from years of personal experience on that exact subject, it's simply because against things that have been tried and proven successful, originality gets d**k-stomped 99.9% of the time, often quite quickly and quite brutally...where the fun in that?

Might as well ask why Jimmy Stewart doesn't show up to Daytona in a Prius rather than his usual NASCAR fare; after all, if things go just right for him, he could still win the race.



Something to consider before making any further replies: You're asking a group of people who, for the most part, are heavily tournament-minded; people who play by Advanced Format rules in regards to what cards can and can't be used in our decks, people who go to events with hundreds or thousands of other players, and pay a fair amount just to get to such events. If you're going to do all that, there is no sense whatsoever in not doing everything you can give yourself the best chance of winning.

I speak from nothing more than years of personal experience on this matter, having gone through pretty much your exact mindset. I've gone to events like that with decks of my own design...a deck focused primarily on Relinquished, a Harpy deck, a Gigaplant-centered burn deck, even one where every card in it was themed on holding something. (Jars, pots, holes in the ground, chests, etc.)

The end result was the same every time: I'd go 3-4 rounds going 0-2 each match, never scoring a win, many times never even getting a single bit of damage in on my opponents, get pissed off at how badly I was getting crushed, quit, and go home feeling like a complete dumbass, not having been able to enjoy myself at all.

Once I gave up on being completely original and started including the things that everyone else used, my performances at such events improved significantly, and while I still never won a tournament, I was at least able to hold my own and have a good deal of fun.

[Necrodancer Ghost]

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

why is a deck that can win these competitions that is also a pure deck inferior?

Lindsays Trachea

Because playing to win means using what works best, and a lot of times there's not much room for originality if you plan to play for money and prizes and an invite to Nationals or Worlds.

Why use the inferior option?

Define "pure deck".

It's rarely the case that a deck built around a single archetype that does not make use of certain staples or non-themed splash cards has won major tournaments. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's never been the case, but in the event I am wrong I'll stick with rarely.

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

but if u know everyone uses these cards, then ur at an advantage if u dont, because u can build ur deck against those staples. you'll win against everyone, because they all essentially use the same cards.

Lindsays Trachea

Because playing to win means using what works best, and a lot of times there's not much room for originality if you plan to play for money and prizes and an invite to Nationals or Worlds.

Why use the inferior option?

Except that's not what you're saying. You're saying build a deck around a singular archetype without the use of staples or splash cards, which is not a very smart thing to do in any card game, let alone Yu-Gi-Oh! If a non-themed card does the same job that a themed card does but better and/or at less of a cost to you or the flow of the deck, then it is always smarter to go with the non-themed card.

What you're proposing is not originality, in fact it's just the opposite. Archetypes were built with the idea that the cards would be used in conjunction with the other cards of that archetype. You're not being original by doing so, you're doing exactly what Konami intended for you to do.

[Willexia Rennar]

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

unless ur using exodia, final countdown, destiny board, wave motion cannon, or other cards that dont need staples.

Exodia/FC: Good luck surviving long enough to achieve your win condition. Drawing all 5 pieces of Exodia is 100% pure luck, and surviving 20 turns in order for Final Countdown to go off in a meta where many games don't last half that long is just a pipe dream.

DB/WMC: A single Mystical Space Typhoon = you lose.

[Lord Tomo AN]

pure deck meaning a non-staple deck (a deck that has absolutely no staples in it)

and yes, but in many cases, themed cards are better than non themed cards. for example: which is better for an ojama deck? mystic plasma zone or ojama country?

Lindsays Trachea

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

why is a deck that can win these competitions that is also a pure deck inferior?

Lindsays Trachea

Because playing to win means using what works best, and a lot of times there's not much room for originality if you plan to play for money and prizes and an invite to Nationals or Worlds.

Why use the inferior option?

Define "pure deck".

It's rarely the case that a deck built around a single archetype that does not make use of certain staples or non-themed splash cards has won major tournaments. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's never been the case, but in the event I am wrong I'll stick with rarely.

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

but if u know everyone uses these cards, then ur at an advantage if u dont, because u can build ur deck against those staples. you'll win against everyone, because they all essentially use the same cards.

Lindsays Trachea

Because playing to win means using what works best, and a lot of times there's not much room for originality if you plan to play for money and prizes and an invite to Nationals or Worlds.

Why use the inferior option?

Except that's not what you're saying. You're saying build a deck around a singular archetype without the use of staples or splash cards, which is not a very smart thing to do in any card game, let alone Yu-Gi-Oh! If a non-themed card does the same job that a themed card does but better and/or at less of a cost to you or the flow of the deck, then it is always smarter to go with the non-themed card.

What you're proposing is not originality, in fact it's just the opposite. Archetypes were built with the idea that the cards would be used in conjunction with the other cards of that archetype. You're not being original by doing so, you're doing exactly what Konami intended for you to do.

[Lord Tomo AN]

and if u put staples in ur deck, then ur going with what everyone else does. a mindless sheep following the rest of the herd. think about this: how many pure decks have u encountered and how many staple decks have u encountered? hardly anyone uses pure decks, so this is more original.

Lindsays Trachea

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

why is a deck that can win these competitions that is also a pure deck inferior?

Lindsays Trachea

Because playing to win means using what works best, and a lot of times there's not much room for originality if you plan to play for money and prizes and an invite to Nationals or Worlds.

Why use the inferior option?

Define "pure deck".

It's rarely the case that a deck built around a single archetype that does not make use of certain staples or non-themed splash cards has won major tournaments. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's never been the case, but in the event I am wrong I'll stick with rarely.

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

but if u know everyone uses these cards, then ur at an advantage if u dont, because u can build ur deck against those staples. you'll win against everyone, because they all essentially use the same cards.

Lindsays Trachea

Because playing to win means using what works best, and a lot of times there's not much room for originality if you plan to play for money and prizes and an invite to Nationals or Worlds.

Why use the inferior option?

Except that's not what you're saying. You're saying build a deck around a singular archetype without the use of staples or splash cards, which is not a very smart thing to do in any card game, let alone Yu-Gi-Oh! If a non-themed card does the same job that a themed card does but better and/or at less of a cost to you or the flow of the deck, then it is always smarter to go with the non-themed card.

What you're proposing is not originality, in fact it's just the opposite. Archetypes were built with the idea that the cards would be used in conjunction with the other cards of that archetype. You're not being original by doing so, you're doing exactly what Konami intended for you to do.

[Lord Tomo AN]

but still, this is an example of winning without staples. does involve luck, but it is possible.

Willexia Rennar

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

unless ur using exodia, final countdown, destiny board, wave motion cannon, or other cards that dont need staples.

Exodia/FC: Good luck surviving long enough to achieve your win condition. Drawing all 5 pieces of Exodia is 100% pure luck, and surviving 20 turns in order for Final Countdown to go off in a meta where many games don't last half that long is just a pipe dream.

DB/WMC: A single Mystical Space Typhoon = you lose.

[Willexia Rennar]

And that's precisely what makes staple cards so good and popular; they make for a deck that doesn't rely on luck to win.

Luck can factor in, yes, but only a fool makes it his/her entire game plan.

[Soundwave 2]

Tomoya_Okazaki_Eternal

pure deck meaning a non-staple deck (a deck that has absolutely no staples in it)

and yes, but in many cases, themed cards are better than non themed cards. for example: which is better for an ojama deck? mystic plasma zone or ojama country?

I hate to say this, but that is a stupid question. You're example is flawed. By comparing a Staple (Ojama Country) to a Ojama deck to a field spell with absolutely no relevance what so ever (Mystic Plasma Zone), you give off the appearance that you a stupid. I could understand if compared Lumineous Spark to Ojama Country, but you didn't.[/