Why isn't there an Arcane Class that can heal?

[The Rogue Fedora]

At one time, I read something stylistic about how Arcane magic can't "create" life energy, which translates into an inability to generate hit points or resurrect. Some spells can manipulate life energy in some ways, but not really "create" it.

Also: Bards are awesome.

[Andrea Valentine]

Guys I did say in my experience, as we only have a few people who play efficient/optimised characters and well they don't roleplay, doesn't seem to matter what class or role they just might as well be the themselves wearing a different suit. They don't roleplay flaws and half of them have the stats that haven't fallen below 14 or have a weakness like 8 Wisdom but don't roleplay it, or don't roleplay what they are meant to be good at.

I'm willing to accept it is possible but once again 'In my experience' I have not met a roleplayer in real life who makes themselves efficient/optimised who roleplays it. As the ones who seem to do it in my group are the power gamers and the cheats. Sorry if I upset anyone with my two broad a statement.

[simetradon]

Andrea Valentine

Guys I did say in my experience, as we only have a few people who play efficient/optimised characters and well they don't roleplay, doesn't seem to matter what class or role they just might as well be the themselves wearing a different suit. They don't roleplay flaws and half of them have the stats that haven't fallen below 14 or have a weakness like 8 Wisdom but don't roleplay it, or don't roleplay what they are meant to be good at.

I'm willing to accept it is possible but once again 'In my experience' I have not met a roleplayer in real life who makes themselves efficient/optimised who roleplays it. As the ones who seem to do it in my group are the power gamers and the cheats. Sorry if I upset anyone with my two broad a statement.

No worries. 3nodding

In my opinion, a character that has an obvious weakness, but the player doesn't play it (such as the low Intelligence character that always seems to know things, or the low Charisma smooth guy), they are cheating. I usually dock experience from them until they straighten out, and generally very blatantly.

Example:
"Bill and Ted, you both get 5 Cool Points* for that encounter. Smelly Pete, you only get 3, because your character has an Intelligence of 4, and yet you keep pulling out various creature's weaknesses out of thin air."


* Cool Points are the Chaos 6010 version of XP, and are spendable.

[Jun Valson]

let's ignore first that yes bards do count-
because as others have pointed out, using feats and alternate features, yes the standard wizard can heal. No- it's not in their "default" package- why- because Arcane Knowledge is about the mysteries of how the multiverse was weaved together, it's about how to take apart and put back together the most fundamental elements in the cosmos. It's not about life and death- it's beyond that. Wizards who want to learn either how the human condition works or about positive/negative energy do have to go /outside/ typical sources to do so, because it's not a direct part of their field. Barring the idea of repairing the damage they themselves receive on the line- and the traditional wizard is of the mindset that I contribute with my brain and let the rif-raf deal with swords and healing... and if you want do a wizard outside that mentality- that's what feats and alternate features are for.... you can't expect customization to just drop in your lap. You want something outside the norm- you work for it.

[Tralk]

Andrea Valentine

They don't roleplay flaws and half of them have the stats that haven't fallen below 14 or have a weakness like 8 Wisdom but don't roleplay it, or don't roleplay what they are meant to be good at.

I have a character with a wisdom of 6. She's fun to play, let me tell you.


Also: Sorry you've been stuck with buttheads.

[Masiakasaurus]

Andrea Valentine

They don't roleplay flaws and half of them have the stats that haven't fallen below 14 or have a weakness like 8 Wisdom but don't roleplay it, or don't roleplay what they are meant to be good at.

A good argument for Death to Ability Scores.

[Byakko Yasutsuki]

Jun Valson

let's ignore first that yes bards do count-
because as others have pointed out, using feats and alternate features, yes the standard wizard can heal. No- it's not in their "default" package- why- because Arcane Knowledge is about the mysteries of how the multiverse was weaved together, it's about how to take apart and put back together the most fundamental elements in the cosmos. It's not about life and death- it's beyond that. Wizards who want to learn either how the human condition works or about positive/negative energy do have to go /outside/ typical sources to do so, because it's not a direct part of their field. Barring the idea of repairing the damage they themselves receive on the line- and the traditional wizard is of the mindset that I contribute with my brain and let the rif-raf deal with swords and healing... and if you want do a wizard outside that mentality- that's what feats and alternate features are for.... you can't expect customization to just drop in your lap. You want something outside the norm- you work for it.

Mmmm... After this I feel sufficiently chastised for my hubris in both a "game" perspective and a "lore" perspective. Thanks.

simetradon

In my opinion, a character that has an obvious weakness, but the player doesn't play it (such as the low Intelligence character that always seems to know things, or the low Charisma smooth guy), they are cheating. I usually dock experience from them until they straighten out, and generally very blatantly.

See, whenever I hear "low-cha smooth guy" I imagine that guy who tries to be a lady-killer but just repeatedly gets punched in the face.

Masiakasaurus

Andrea Valentine

They don't roleplay flaws and half of them have the stats that haven't fallen below 14 or have a weakness like 8 Wisdom but don't roleplay it, or don't roleplay what they are meant to be good at.

A good argument for Death to Ability Scores.

No, it's a good argument for point-buy.

[Masiakasaurus]

simetradon

In my opinion, a character that has an obvious weakness, but the player doesn't play it (such as the low Intelligence character that always seems to know things, or the low Charisma smooth guy), they are cheating. I usually dock experience from them until they straighten out, and generally very blatantly.

So if, say, a fighter character dumps INT since it's mechanically worthless to them in most editions of D&D, you'd punish them for not RPing a hindrance that was foisted on them by the mechanics of the game? Or force them to put points in a worthless attribute to avoid being "the dumb guy?" Because those are both pretty awful.

Byakko Yasutsuki

No, it's a good argument for point-buy.

Point buy should be the default assumption.

[simetradon]

Masiakasaurus

simetradon

In my opinion, a character that has an obvious weakness, but the player doesn't play it (such as the low Intelligence character that always seems to know things, or the low Charisma smooth guy), they are cheating. I usually dock experience from them until they straighten out, and generally very blatantly.

So if, say, a fighter character dumps INT since it's mechanically worthless to them in most editions of D&D, you'd punish them for not RPing a hindrance that was foisted on them by the mechanics of the game? Or force them to put points in a worthless attribute to avoid being "the dumb guy?" Because those are both pretty awful.

If a player chooses to have a weakness, then they should abide by that choice.

Byakko Yasutsuki

No, it's a good argument for point-buy.

That's why the default in Chaos 6010 is point-buy. The player gets to choose their strengths and weaknesses at creation, and as the character progresses, they have the option to overcome those weaknesses.

[Masiakasaurus]

simetradon

If a player chooses to have a weakness, then they should abide by that choice.

I'm in a game right now where I'm playing a warlord with a 10 CHA. He has a 10 CHA because he's a taclord and I needed the points for INT and STR. I suppose that's my fault for building the character to actually work instead of gimping him so that I could have permission to play him as a charismatic leader?

My character is bad at CHA-based skill checks and has a low Will defense. My low stat already has mechanical repercussions. Why do I need to be further punished?

[Andrea Valentine]

Tralk

Andrea Valentine

They don't roleplay flaws and half of them have the stats that haven't fallen below 14 or have a weakness like 8 Wisdom but don't roleplay it, or don't roleplay what they are meant to be good at.

I have a character with a wisdom of 6. She's fun to play, let me tell you.


Also: Sorry you've been stuck with buttheads.

Just a quick reply as I'm getting read to go to my Wonderland No More game, I used to have a character in a very short game with 4 wisdom, it was so much fun, and the GM was one of those, 'No one dies in my game' type so every time I was hit with wis damage I was reduced to 1 and he hated it. The character suffered from amnesia (since Wis links to memory (at least with my crew)) and he got so paranoid when at 1 Wis. He started thinking the rocks were after him the group were fighting a Rocs and shouted watch out Rocs, and in one instance he thought he'd gone to hell cause there was this weird hybrid elemental thing fighting his friends and a weird half undead woman who damaged my wisdom to one, knocked me to the floor and set the room on fire.......so getting up I think it was fair to think I had been teleported to hell.

Yeah we've got some buttheads sad We have some roleplays but they stuggle to be heard

[simetradon]

Masiakasaurus

My character is bad at CHA-based skill checks and has a low Will defense. My low stat already has mechanical repercussions. Why do I need to be further punished?

A 10 Charisma is average, and I wouldn't bother penalizing such a player.

However, if a character had a Charisma of 4, in order to have a maximum in several other stats, yet the player kept playing the character as smooth and dapper, or described them as "good looking", I would have a talk with them.

Conversely, if a character had Intelligence as a dump stat, and somehow the player had their character recalling extensive amounts of information about creatures, without making a roll, I would have a talk with them.

When your character has an obvious weakness, play to it. Perhaps a character with low Charisma is horridly socially inept. Perhaps the character has odious personal habits, abysmal hygiene, or maybe the character looks like a cross between the Hunchback of Notre Dame and the Toxic Avenger.

Characters with weaknesses are, in my opinion, infinitely more interesting than Mary Sue characters. Just remember to play the weakness.

I also encourage "Character Motivations", things that a player sets forth as what drives their character forward and gives them focus. If a player made a character with a low Charisma (for example), and one motivation was to overcome their handicap, by having their character learn social customs, grooming habits, etc. I would reward them with additional XP when they took steps toward overcoming their weakness. In Chaos 6010, these Cool Points (XP equivalents) would only be spendable on Charisma (or Physical Beauty, or related mechanics).

[Tralk]

Andrea Valentine

... I used to have a character in a very short game with 4 wisdom...

Well, Wisdom is linked to memory, to common sense, and how you perceive your environment. One of my characters was a fighter who had been wisdom drained by some ghosts. The party fell into an ice hole, and was discussing how to get out. Mostly it was out of character "Ok well I think AJ has the best climb score, so we'll send him up first, and he can set up the climbers kit." Well, being that my wisdom was lowered to, I think at this point 4, my character was a bit aloof. The party didn't bother to ask me for my opinion, so I sort of just ignored them. He started stripping off his armor. The party sort of ignored him. AJ's character began to start his climb, repeatedly failing his check. Shortly after, my character started to climb, quickly catching up to AJ's and then getting to the top. He spikes a piton, ties a rope, throws it down for the rest of the party. Then he slips and falls back to the bottom of the hole.

He gets back up, dusts himself off, and starts climbing again, forgetting he threw down the rope.


My Wisdom 6 character has a feat which reduces your wisdom by 4 in order to give you immunity to mind affecting spells and abilities. I then decided to take the flaw Weak Willed, leaving me with a +0 will save at level 15. You might say to yourself, "Well where's the flaw in that you're immune to almost every spell!" That's the kicker. Bardic Music is mind effecting, so even beneficial songs don't work on me. Illusions are NOT mind effecting. This never came up, but I know it would have been a lot of fun. "Wow this mime is awesome!" 'It's not real.' "What do you mean he's not real look at him!"

She was also insane. Part of a demon worshiping cult. Killed an angel so she could have its wings and fly again (she still can't fly but that doesn't stop her from jumping off things)

[Masiakasaurus]

simetradon

Characters with weaknesses are, in my opinion, infinitely more interesting than Mary Sue characters. Just remember to play the weakness.

But the weaknesses are already mechanically enforced. Low-CHA characters have trouble making CHA-based checks, that's the penalty. You are adding an additional mechanical penalty on top of that if they don't play their character "right." You are removing interesting roleplay options, such as "smart guy who chokes under pressure" or "charming guy who has terrible luck and always says the wrong thing." And it's an XP penalty, which adds a whole 'nother can of worms.

Do you make wizards roleplay the difficulty they have opening doors? No, of course not. The effects of low physical skills are encoded in-game. Your penalty is uneven and punishes martial characters more than casters.

Worse, you're encouraging players to gimp themselves for RP reasons, which hurts everyone at the table.

[Jun Valson]

Masiakasaurus

simetradon

Characters with weaknesses are, in my opinion, infinitely more interesting than Mary Sue characters. Just remember to play the weakness.

But the weaknesses are already mechanically enforced. Low-CHA characters have trouble making CHA-based checks, that's the penalty. You are adding an additional mechanical penalty on top of that if they don't play their character "right." You are removing interesting roleplay options, such as "smart guy who chokes under pressure" or "charming guy who has terrible luck and always says the wrong thing." And it's an XP penalty, which adds a whole 'nother can of worms.

Do you make wizards roleplay the difficulty they have opening doors? No, of course not. The effects of low physical skills are encoded in-game. Your penalty is uneven and punishes martial characters more than casters.

Worse, you're encouraging players to gimp themselves for RP reasons, which hurts everyone at the table.

the difference is, what's the DC to open a common door- 1? 5? generally something even with a massive penalty on a d20 you'll get it after a try or two, and there's no penalty for re-trying, whereas a low Cha chara trying o charm a room would be at least a 10, and if he screws it up by saying something stupid, the room will then be progressively more hostile towards him. That how these rp elements fit in mechanically- but literally rolling these for a normal character /would/ detract from the game, these aren't normal circumstances- at least by the numbers since these characters are sufficiently "below average"....

now yes, if you DM makes you roll everything he's a douche, but if you're constantly trying to charm the room with a 6 Cha, or figure out the Troll's weakness to fire and acid on your first time seeing one with a 6 Int... then you my good sir, are the one being douche-like.