What is your favorite D&D class?

[DarkArchmage]

>That's better! Asking a question without slinging names around!
-->Holy butt monkeys batman I didn't know that would hurt your feelings... Oh I'm sorry are you still in grade school, yeah I understand now. I'll be a little more careful with your feelings next time.

>Exibit a: Reality Revision... A Wish-Plus, that can be thrown around for (Like every oter psionic power) as many times as you have points to use it (So, Minnimum ML=17th, 250PP's a day (not counting any extras from ability scores/feats/racial abilitys and or a whole bunch of other stuffs designed to give you more PP's) so 14 times a day... Granted, each casting requires 5,000xp but if you're 17th level already, 5k isnt that much really!
-->Miricle: only costs XP when the DM thinks the deity is really going out of its way to preform the act. Additionally at 17th level you only have another 17,000 XP to go before your 18th level... If you really dont have a problem burning a little under 1/3 of your XP needed to level then well... I really dont have anything to say about that

>Exibit b: Volume of Power points: I have yet to see a character created in the ExPHB ever have a problem of 'Too Few Power Points' in fact the opposite is true, with Psions and their ilk still with a safe reserve at lower levels when their Wizard, Sorcoror Cleric and Druid counterparts would have been out ages ago. (Even the Soulknife, who has no need for a Psionic points pool, gains 'Wild talent' for 2PP as a bonus feat at 1st level, not to mention any Power points he may already have for his race being 'naturally' psionic.. and he doesnt even need to use them!)
--> You will see if you find the conversion solution as I did that there really isn't a difference between the amount of fire power a cleric with a decent wis bonus has.

>Exibit c: Augmenting Powers: Make your powers better (Bump their saves speifically) by spending extra power points. The balencing factor for this ability is explained in the need to spend more points... this point is made moot by the above arguement.
-->ok but why have to spend actions on bumbing up your saves if they already rock because your a cleric?

>Exibit d: Wild Surge/Overchannel: With the points noted above, need I say more?
-->Well given the rest of your arguments were just refuted maybe you should spell this one out for us.

>So there you have it... case and point.
--> oh yeah and counter point!

[Sirithdelroth]

DarkArchmage

>That's better! Asking a question without slinging names around!
-->Holy butt monkeys batman I didn't know that would hurt your feelings... Oh I'm sorry are you still in grade school, yeah I understand now. I'll be a little more careful with your feelings next time.

>Exibit a: Reality Revision... A Wish-Plus, that can be thrown around for (Like every oter psionic power) as many times as you have points to use it (So, Minnimum ML=17th, 250PP's a day (not counting any extras from ability scores/feats/racial abilitys and or a whole bunch of other stuffs designed to give you more PP's) so 14 times a day... Granted, each casting requires 5,000xp but if you're 17th level already, 5k isnt that much really!
-->Miricle: only costs XP when the DM thinks the deity is really going out of its way to preform the act. Additionally at 17th level you only have another 17,000 XP to go before your 18th level... If you really dont have a problem burning a little under 1/3 of your XP needed to level then well... I really dont have anything to say about that

>Exibit b: Volume of Power points: I have yet to see a character created in the ExPHB ever have a problem of 'Too Few Power Points' in fact the opposite is true, with Psions and their ilk still with a safe reserve at lower levels when their Wizard, Sorcoror Cleric and Druid counterparts would have been out ages ago. (Even the Soulknife, who has no need for a Psionic points pool, gains 'Wild talent' for 2PP as a bonus feat at 1st level, not to mention any Power points he may already have for his race being 'naturally' psionic.. and he doesnt even need to use them!)
--> You will see if you find the conversion solution as I did that there really isn't a difference between the amount of fire power a cleric with a decent wis bonus has.

>Exibit c: Augmenting Powers: Make your powers better (Bump their saves speifically) by spending extra power points. The balencing factor for this ability is explained in the need to spend more points... this point is made moot by the above arguement.
-->ok but why have to spend actions on bumbing up your saves if they already rock because your a cleric?

>Exibit d: Wild Surge/Overchannel: With the points noted above, need I say more?
-->Well given the rest of your arguments were just refuted maybe you should spell this one out for us.

>So there you have it... case and point.
--> oh yeah and counter point!

Oh yes, because attempting to make your adovcated class just seem better by "topping" your verbal oppenent is really a great arguement.
First off: MIracle as a spell is totally up to the DM. Sure, you can have your cleric prepare it, but if the DM feels that your diety isn't going to respond, then that's one less spell you have for the day. And the higher powers just don't go around throwing miracles at everyone who asks for one. there could easily be a geas involved in the casting of Miracle.
Secondly: Define "A decent Wis bonus" because I personally think that +0 is a decent bonus because it's an average bonus. Or do you think that a bonus of +4 for or higher is decent?
Thirdly: (I don't care if it's not a real word. I still like it) You make me laugh. A cleric has okay saves, and although psions have one (yes a whole one) fewer good save, they also have better abilities than clerics. While the Cleric gets the ability to affect undead/elementals (with the proper domains), Psion get their psicrystal, and combat modes. Granted, these aren't a whole lot of abilities to brag about, but they're still better.


Now, I'm guessing here, so stop me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if you don't know much (if anything) about the psion class.
How do think you can out-argue somebody without even knowing what your arguing against, how do think you could possibly come out of it without looking like an idiot? quite simply, you can't.

[Spiritual WD40]

DarkArchmage

>That's better! Asking a question without slinging names around!
-->Holy butt monkeys batman I didn't know that would hurt your feelings... Oh I'm sorry are you still in grade school, yeah I understand now. I'll be a little more careful with your feelings next time.

Good Grief! All I was asking was for you to be polite! sweatdrop (PS, Gaia has a 'Profiles' option, check me out before you go making silly comments!)

DarkArchmage

>Exibit a: Reality Revision... A Wish-Plus, that can be thrown around for (Like every oter psionic power) as many times as you have points to use it (So, Minnimum ML=17th, 250PP's a day (not counting any extras from ability scores/feats/racial abilitys and or a whole bunch of other stuffs designed to give you more PP's) so 14 times a day... Granted, each casting requires 5,000xp but if you're 17th level already, 5k isnt that much really!
-->Miricle: only costs XP when the DM thinks the deity is really going out of its way to preform the act. Additionally at 17th level you only have another 17,000 XP to go before your 18th level... If you really dont have a problem burning a little under 1/3 of your XP needed to level then well... I really dont have anything to say about that

Actually, Miricle only works if your deity lets it. Wish, on the other hand, works all the time. Neither is a decent arguement anyway, because Reality Revision can do far more than either of those spells. Not only that, but it does it without any chance of cockups, which is always a risk you run with Wish/Miricle.. so Reality Revision pwns Wish/Miricle.. Chalk one up to the Psions.

DarkArchmage

>Exibit b: Volume of Power points: I have yet to see a character created in the ExPHB ever have a problem of 'Too Few Power Points' in fact the opposite is true, with Psions and their ilk still with a safe reserve at lower levels when their Wizard, Sorcoror Cleric and Druid counterparts would have been out ages ago. (Even the Soulknife, who has no need for a Psionic points pool, gains 'Wild talent' for 2PP as a bonus feat at 1st level, not to mention any Power points he may already have for his race being 'naturally' psionic.. and he doesnt even need to use them!)
--> You will see if you find the conversion solution as I did that there really isn't a difference between the amount of fire power a cleric with a decent wis bonus has.

OK, lets take a Level-1 Cleric, and a Level-1 Psion, The Cleric has 11 Wis, while the Psion has 11 Int. For simplicitys sake, we'll say that neither have any feats at all, and we'll also ignore Domains and Diciplines, again to equal out the field. The most spell damage a Cleric can inflict at this level is with an 'Inflict Minor Wounds' Spell, which will dole out 1d8+1 with a touch. He can do this once a day.
Now Mr. Psion on the other hand, has 3 PP's. He can use 'Energy Ray' three times a day. Dealing 1d6 points of Force Damage, With the option of dealing a +1 for cold, +1 of Fire, +3 to attack rolls and +2 on opposed ML checks for Electricity or -1 damage for a sonic ray that completly ignores hardness. OR he can spend additional PP to increace the damage of the ray by +1d6. So there you have it. Psion has the Cleric licked for fire power from 1st level.... and it just gets worse from then on. That's another one for the Psions.

DarkArchmage

>Exibit c: Augmenting Powers: Make your powers better (Bump their saves speifically) by spending extra power points. The balencing factor for this ability is explained in the need to spend more points... this point is made moot by the above arguement.
-->ok but why have to spend actions on bumbing up your saves if they already rock because your a cleric?

Clearly, you've misunderstood me here. I'm not talking about increacing the Psions base Saves, rather the Save DC's for his Psionic Powers. As we all know, Saveing throws go up a hell of a lot faster than save DC's. Making the Psion all the more powerful in this field. Thats' Three for Three for the Psion.

DarkArchmage

>Exibit d: Wild Surge/Overchannel: With the points noted above, need I say more?
-->Well given the rest of your arguments were just refuted maybe you should spell this one out for us.

I dont think I will. It's quite clear, as Sirithdelroth has pointed out, that you dont know what youre talking about.

DarkArchmage

>So there you have it... case and point.
--> oh yeah and counter point!

Except you havnt made a counter point. You've made a whole bunch of misconceptions, and drawn an incorrect conclusion from them.

I'm tired of this now, so I'm going to stop responding to you untill you learn to be polite, open minded, and learn to reserch all facets of an arguement before entering in to one.

Goodbye.

[starsrift]

Jumping into arguments is not really my style, but sometimes I just something so erroneous, I have to say something.
Personally, I like psionics, simply because they add a hint of the exotic to the game. If they were part of the PHB, I probably wouldn't be interested as much.

Sirithdelroth

Oh yes, because attempting to make your adovcated class just seem better by "topping" your verbal oppenent is really a great arguement.

This is standard flamewar technique. By making a verbal opponent seem less learned or less intelligent than you can invalidate the points they are making. But this isn't -my- point, so let's move on.

Sirithdelroth

First off: MIracle as a spell is totally up to the DM. Sure, you can have your cleric prepare it, but if the DM feels that your diety isn't going to respond, then that's one less spell you have for the day. And the higher powers just don't go around throwing miracles at everyone who asks for one. there could easily be a geas involved in the casting of Miracle.
Secondly: Define "A decent Wis bonus" because I personally think that +0 is a decent bonus because it's an average bonus. Or do you think that a bonus of +4 for or higher is decent?

Okay, um, hold up, -right- here.
How far is a cleric going to get with a +0 modifier to wisdom?
Yes, I appreciate that 9 is supposed to be an 'average' score, with D&D, but if a cleric starts with a 0 modifier, it means they only have access to Level 1 spells. Which means that if they try to continue in the cleric class, by the time they reach level 20, they'll be able to cast -5th- level spells.
Yay. So, being able to cast 5th level spells by Level 20 is considered decent to you?
Well, fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion, but, in any of the games I've played or run in, a score of 14 or 15 is what's considered to be a decent score of Wis for a cleric or druid.

Sirithdelroth

Thirdly: (I don't care if it's not a real word. I still like it) You make me laugh. A cleric has okay saves, and although psions have one (yes a whole one) fewer good save, they also have better abilities than clerics. While the Cleric gets the ability to affect undead/elementals (with the proper domains), Psion get their psicrystal, and combat modes. Granted, these aren't a whole lot of abilities to brag about, but they're still better.

The psionics revision (Expanded Psionics Handbook) for 3.5 does away with combat modes. Previous combat modes are now just powers.
It makes the psi-crystal optional - you have to buy a feat to get one. Which is not quite as cool as a wizard, who gets a familiar right away. And, a psicrystal tends to be a bit more useless than a familiar, to start with.
The only thing a Psion actually has going for him is a different spell list, which, at DM discretion, may undercut or interact with 'normal' magic, and a more flexible casting system. Instead of casting 8 level 1 spells and 6 level 2 spells and so on, he can cast a whole crapload of level 1 spells, if he wants - and if he -ever- wants them to improve to multiple dice of damage, he has to augment them - cast them at higher spell levels.
A wizard or cleric automatically casts a damage spell with more dice without forcing it into a higher slot, by virtue of being a higher level.

Versatility and an alternate spell list is the Psion's advantage. Sometimes the versatility scares some DM's.

[Gollum007]

2nd Edition i like the Dwarven Battlerager 3rd Edition Half Orc Barbarian

[DarkArchmage]

[JakeSorren]

Sorcerer owns all!!!

[bakfire]

I prefer the rogue, sooo many possibilities and soo many styles. I love the theif/scout and the theif/assassin styles the most.

[JakeSorren]

Thief/Sorcerer is even better!!!

[Sirithdelroth]

So now because I haven't found a gaming store near me that had Expanded psionics in stock, I'm an idiot? that's mature. I ahd no idea about combat modes being thrown out. blame that on Wizards. Not me.

And as for your rebutle to Kev3480's point on Reality Revision VS. Wish/Miracle: Miracle is completely DM discrestion. Your diety doesn't have to jack s**t for you. Wish is subject to DM discrestion too. That's the big counter measure to these two almost all-powerful spells. You refered to mis-stating your wish/miracle resquests as "dicking up". Must you be so profane? anyways, yeah. it can be messed up. and those are the greatest plot twists. it's like a monkey's paw type of thing. (to steal an example from encyclopedia VIII,) you could wish for every arcane spell copied down into a spell book, and then find yourself at the recieving end of an archmage's wrath. Or you could wish X amount of gold/platinum pieces, and find yourself thrown into jail for counterfitting. Reality revision however, is totally up to the manifester. (yeah, psions don't "cast" anything. they manifest powers. that hasn't changed. I know that.) That's (another) reason why psion's are so broken. because if they wanted to, they COULD turn a baby into a pile of bananas. And there's nothing the DM could do about it. And generally speking, wish & miracle are cast so infrequently cast that when they are, the group discusses what exacly should be cast. At least in my expiriences.

On your second point: You can't play if your high stat is 11. Neither the psion nor the cleric could get to the hobgoblin. let alone the two kobolds. (why can no one spell kobold?!) Kev3480's scenario was purely hypothetical, jsut for analyzing damage, not taking damage. plus, Psions have armor proficiencies (In 3e at least.) so a 13 wouldn't hit.

And in conclusion: You really make me sick. My comments were based solely on my prior knowledge of psions and what you've demonstrated in your knowledge. If you really knew something about psions, you'd've have made some more good, valid arguements, but instead your making poinless arguements about how much better a cleric supposedly is than a psion. Take the blinders off. cut the glib comments, and look at what's being said. Psionics are much, much harder to counter than magic is. If a character decides to play a psionic character in a non-pisonic campagin and their DM (foolishly) allows the him/her to, then that character will have a severe advantage over other characters.

And in a note that I wish to keep out of this conversation:
you, DarkArchmage, are an a*****e. Get off your high horse already, and be reasonable.

[Napalm = Fun]

Threx

Bandit of Fallen Angels

Mine would have to be thief.

Doesnt exist anymore

There are variations of thieves. There is the spell-thief or something like that in the Complete Adventurer.

Anyways...
My favorite class would be the rogue. They are fun to use in many ways.

[Sirithdelroth]

JakeSorren

Thief/Sorcerer is even better!!!

But that's multiclassing, while still a valid point, it's not technically a single class. and while I do believe that both rogues and sorcerers have their good qualities, they are in no way the best base class. I'd probably say clerics are, due to their ability to do *almost* anything.

Now, before any unnamed individuals against whom I'm arguing pro-psion, anti-cleric, I never said that clerics weren't good. I've just chosen to advocate psions in this particular situation. Albeit it wasn't the best decision, considering my resources, but still. I've chosen my point and I'm sticking to it.

[Draco Obscura]

I would like to remind everyone that this is not a discussion of the "best" class (a subjective term in any case), but the individual posters FAVORITE class. As such, I urge you to shut the hell up and quit polluting an otherwise amicable thread.

Back on topic, I prefer the arcane classes to the fighter classes, though evil clerics are up there too.

[starsrift]

DarkArchmage

>Exibit a: Reality Revision... A Wish-Plus, that can be thrown around for (Like every oter psionic power) as many times as you have points to use it (So, Minnimum ML=17th, 250PP's a day (not counting any extras from ability scores/feats/racial abilitys and or a whole bunch of other stuffs designed to give you more PP's) so 14 times a day... Granted, each casting requires 5,000xp but if you're 17th level already, 5k isnt that much really!
-->Miricle: only costs XP when the DM thinks the deity is really going out of its way to preform the act. Additionally at 17th level you only have another 17,000 XP to go before your 18th level... If you really dont have a problem burning a little under 1/3 of your XP needed to level then well... I really dont have anything to say about that

Kev3480

Actually, Miricle only works if your deity lets it. Wish, on the other hand, works all the time. Neither is a decent arguement anyway, because Reality Revision can do far more than either of those spells. Not only that, but it does it without any chance of cockups, which is always a risk you run with Wish/Miricle.. so Reality Revision pwns Wish/Miricle.. Chalk one up to the Psions.

If you take a boo at Reality Revision, it gives a list of very cool game altering but -specific- effects. It says anything else is up to the DM.
Now, if your DM giggles with glee at the thought of turning babies into piles of bananas, like I do, yes, you'd certainly get away with it. Other than that, sucks to be a player. . .

Kev3480

OK, lets take a Level-1 Cleric, and a Level-1 Psion, The Cleric has 11 Wis, while the Psion has 11 Int. For simplicitys sake, we'll say that neither have any feats at all, and we'll also ignore Domains and Diciplines, again to equal out the field. The most spell damage a Cleric can inflict at this level is with an 'Inflict Minor Wounds' Spell, which will dole out 1d8+1 with a touch. He can do this once a day.
Now Mr. Psion on the other hand, has 3 PP's. He can use 'Energy Ray' three times a day. Dealing 1d6 points of Force Damage, With the option of dealing a +1 for cold, +1 of Fire, +3 to attack rolls and +2 on opposed ML checks for Electricity or -1 damage for a sonic ray that completly ignores hardness. OR he can spend additional PP to increace the damage of the ray by +1d6. So there you have it. Psion has the Cleric licked for fire power from 1st level.... and it just gets worse from then on. That's another one for the Psions.

Yep, but, clerics aren't really damage-spellcasters, given that they get along in melee quite well.
Furthermore, a psion can only spend a number of power points equal to their manifester level per round. So, um, they can't augment anything at first level. (Besides which, at level 2 if you -miss- with the ray, there goes all your power points in short order. . . boohoo. Cue the kobold victory!)

As far as the number of times? Well, a first level cleric, sans bonuses, gets 3 0-level spells, and 2 1st level spells ( 1 domain, 1 normal). While 0-level spells are certainly laughable, they -do- provide effects that tend to make a cleric more generally useful than a psion. Stabilizing a friend with a Cure (The Really Insignificant Version but still magical healing) spell to avoid horrible 1st level death makes a cleric better in my books. smile
A sorceror, which is pretty much a combat spellcaster with a great set of buns (and everything else) can cast Magic Missile (1d4+1, yay) 3x a day, or, more fun - Burning Hands! Area effect spells at first level are -neat-. Wizards, in comparison, um. . .
. . . 1st level is a bad time to be a wizard. sad
Ray of Frost or Acid Splash, anyone?

DarkArchmage

>Exibit c: Augmenting Powers: Make your powers better (Bump their saves speifically) by spending extra power points. The balencing factor for this ability is explained in the need to spend more points... this point is made moot by the above arguement.
-->ok but why have to spend actions on bumbing up your saves if they already rock because your a cleric?

Kev3480

Clearly, you've misunderstood me here. I'm not talking about increacing the Psions base Saves, rather the Save DC's for his Psionic Powers. As we all know, Saveing throws go up a hell of a lot faster than save DC's. Making the Psion all the more powerful in this field. Thats' Three for Three for the Psion.

Hey, psions got something goin' for them! Yay!
(Do chaste clerics still get p***s envy?)

DarkArchmage

>Exibit d: Wild Surge/Overchannel: With the points noted above, need I say more?
-->Well given the rest of your arguments were just refuted maybe you should spell this one out for us.

What a horrible argument. Moving on.

Kev3480

I dont think I will. It's quite clear, as Sirithdelroth has pointed out, that you dont know what youre talking about.

Overchannel? Yeah, so, um, taking a 1d8 hit to increase manifester level for a single spell really sucks on a d4 hit die. Not to mention that if you in combat, you're probably already taking some kind of other damage.

DarkArchmage

>So there you have it... case and point.
--> oh yeah and counter point!

Kev3480

Except you havnt made a counter point. You've made a whole bunch of misconceptions, and drawn an incorrect conclusion from them.

Round and round and round we go, where knowledge starts, nobody knows.

Kev3480

I'm tired of this now, so I'm going to stop responding to you untill you learn to be polite, open minded, and learn to reserch all facets of an arguement before entering in to one.

Inserting feet in maws is fun. Do you wear socks, or prefer the toe grease taste? Ahhh, could not resist, my apologies.

My point is that the classes are balanced, very well. Sure, min/maxing stats and mixing abilities together by taking a bizarre combination of prestige classes can superpower a character, but you know what?
That's really what the DM is for.
D&D, like other tabletop RPG's, is a game made for fun. It's a way to play out imaginary lives - fun lives - and all of the sickening melodrama contained within, and a chance to let the mind dwell somewhere else for a bit and forget about day to day life. If you're not having fun, it's time to leave the table. Or tell your DM why, in hopes he can fix it.
The DM's job is to guide this magical adventure, and keep everyone on the same page. If a character is getting overpowered or taking center stage, it's the DM's job to correct that. The easiest and most fair way to do that is let the characters' reputation spread - and the character that's taken center stage is going to be the most talked about.
Do you think baddies are gonna go after that harmless little guy with a pointy hat they've heard nothing about, or Bravo, the banana-pile making psion of One Hundred Cautionary Legends?

Sure, a cleric's patron will definitely get involved if the god sees the cleric misusing their powers. But who's to say one - or several gods won't get involved if they see a psion wandering around, turning their worshippers - or ordinary Joe and Jane elf - into banana piles?
(I would love to be a fly on the wall for that celestial report. Something like this?
Celestial Servant: Umm, Lord, we have a developing situation.
A God: What's happening, Bob?
Bob the Celestial Servant: There's an, um, mortal wandering around, and, well...
A God: Just get to it, I have a golf game in an hour.
Bob the Celestial Servant: He's making piles of bananas, Lord.
A God: What's your point? Shaddup and grab my 9-mithral.
Bob the Celestial Servant: Er, he's making piles of bananas, from babies, Lord.
A God: Really? Nevermind my 9-mithral, grab my +47 Holy Greatsword of PC Bane. We're going to have a chat with Mr. Banana Pile.
Bob the Celestial Servant: Of course, lord. . .)

If a character is walking around and turning babies into banana piles with carelessly casted Reality Revisions, Wishes, or Miracles, the DM A) has a sense of humor and B) he's let things get too far, because he didn't control that from near the start.

[Sirithdelroth]

I think this arguements gottena bit out of hand. I'm just gonna ignore this thread for a while a really long while.