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Feral Lunatic

I once again come before you as a humble seeker of knowledge. I have the desire to build some serious control in my colors. And as the table top format around here is legacy it is my format. So I present my suggested decklist.

Creatures
x4 death's shadow
x2 true-name nemisis
x2 clever impersonator

planeswalkers
x2 Jace the mindsculptor
x1 liliana of the veil

Sorcery
x3 duress
x4 hymn of tourach
x1 supreme verdict

instants
x4 force of will
X4 daze
x4 brainstorm
x4 swords to plowshears
x3 spell pierce
x2 dismember

land
x2 hallowed fountain
x2 flooded strand
x4 polluted delta
x4 watery grave
x4 wasteland
x2 island
x1 swamp
x1 karakas

no i can't afford true dual lands... wish i could... that'd be awesome

Dedcadent Pants

Alright, here's what I see:

Control pieces:
2 Jace (maybe)
1 Liliana
4 Hymn
1 Supreme Verdict

Tempo pieces:
2 True-name Nemesis
3 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords
3 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember

Other stuff:
4 Death's Shadow
2 Clever Impersonator
4 Brainstorm


Guess 1:
Your deck is weak to aggressive decks. More weak than it should be. Is Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows still a thing? I kinda think it'd murder you.

Guess 2:
You do solidly against control. Hymns and Duresses, backed by Pierces and Dazes, make you the tempo deck.

Guess 3:
You have an uphill struggle against tempo, mostly because your removal is largely situational, and relies more on denial than post-battlefield removal.


What's your board look like?

How accurate were my guesses?

Possible fixes if my guesses are right:
1 - Add in land based critters. Things like Factories, Conclaves, or Nexi.

2 - Add in Wastelands. Disruption is good, and better when it hits everything.

Feral Lunatic

I have wasteland in there... it's under watery grave.

that being said i do indeed struggle greatly against aggro decks, I can handily take care of most control situations... between my ability to counter their key spells, keep them low on cards, surgically remove key threats I'm solid there. combo decks I can take care of fairly well too.

some land creatures might not do me poorly though.

I'm still letting the deck get beat on... generally i like to go without a sideboard a few times to get a better idea what i need

Dedcadent Pants

Whoops, missed the Wastes. My mistake. I'll get back to you with more tomorrow.

Dedcadent Pants

Okay. Back with more.

I'm guessing you're realizing the problem with Legacy control: single use effects, no matter how efficient, can't establish proper control.

It doesn't matter if you're running 8 Wraths, you're still going to die to the Lightning Bolts your opponent is holding. It doesn't matter if you're running 12 Counterspells, you're still going to die to the Kird Ape/Wild Nacatl that slipped through on turn 1 or 2. So, the problem becomes "how do I address both with repeatable effects?"

That's where you're going to have to find your own answer. I used a static effect (Ensnaring Bridge) to handle creatures, saving counters for artifact removal and anything else that was actually threatening. However, Bridge fails miserably against Affinity, which has so many 0 power creatures that all it turns into is a BB tax for Cranial Plating.

Any color can run Bridge, but in U/B, that's a little dangerous, as you don't have Enlightened Tutors. Sure, you could use Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to help you find it, but that's expensive mana-wise, and while a turn 3 Bridge isn't too late, a turn 5 one might be.

I suggest, to have a better game against aggro, you completely rework the deck. Which is unfortunate, but right now, you have a deck that's meta'd against control/combo.

Indicators of why it's meta'd:
Duress
Hymn
Spell Pierce
Daze
Liliana

These spells, which comprise about 1/4th your deck, are anti-control/combo. In contrast, your anti-critter component

Liliana
Verdict
Swords
Dismember

comprises only 8 cards, or 1/15th. Since most Legacy decks tend towards aggro or tempo, I tend to prefer to build to handle those two, then board in for control and problem combo.

Something else to keep in mind is that unlike in Standard, control in Legacy should be able to operate on only 1 or 2 cards in hand. At this point in time, thanks to creature power creep, it almost has to, because the threats are too efficient to wait for "something big."

Feral Lunatic

LiaThistle
Okay. Back with more.

I'm guessing you're realizing the problem with Legacy control: single use effects, no matter how efficient, can't establish proper control.

It doesn't matter if you're running 8 Wraths, you're still going to die to the Lightning Bolts your opponent is holding. It doesn't matter if you're running 12 Counterspells, you're still going to die to the Kird Ape/Wild Nacatl that slipped through on turn 1 or 2. So, the problem becomes "how do I address both with repeatable effects?"

That's where you're going to have to find your own answer. I used a static effect (Ensnaring Bridge) to handle creatures, saving counters for artifact removal and anything else that was actually threatening. However, Bridge fails miserably against Affinity, which has so many 0 power creatures that all it turns into is a BB tax for Cranial Plating.

Any color can run Bridge, but in U/B, that's a little dangerous, as you don't have Enlightened Tutors. Sure, you could use Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to help you find it, but that's expensive mana-wise, and while a turn 3 Bridge isn't too late, a turn 5 one might be.

I suggest, to have a better game against aggro, you completely rework the deck. Which is unfortunate, but right now, you have a deck that's meta'd against control/combo.

Indicators of why it's meta'd:
Duress
Hymn
Spell Pierce
Daze
Liliana

These spells, which comprise about 1/4th your deck, are anti-control/combo. In contrast, your anti-critter component

Liliana
Verdict
Swords
Dismember

comprises only 8 cards, or 1/15th. Since most Legacy decks tend towards aggro or tempo, I tend to prefer to build to handle those two, then board in for control and problem combo.

Something else to keep in mind is that unlike in Standard, control in Legacy should be able to operate on only 1 or 2 cards in hand. At this point in time, thanks to creature power creep, it almost has to, because the threats are too efficient to wait for "something big."


You hit the nail on the head. I'm great against decks that tend not to beat me in the face with the one or two efficient creatures they slip through the denial field. that is the reason for my creatures I've chosen. true-name being and incredible tool to block with or go for the kill with. deaths shadow taking my beatings and turning them somewhat to my favor. and clever impersonator being the go to guy for duplicating threats that I somehow let get through. but they don't quite cut it when it's all said and done against say... legacy burn zoo and d&t

Dedcadent Pants

Raksha-Jareth
You hit the nail on the head. I'm great against decks that tend not to beat me in the face with the one or two efficient creatures they slip through the denial field. that is the reason for my creatures I've chosen. true-name being and incredible tool to block with or go for the kill with. deaths shadow taking my beatings and turning them somewhat to my favor. and clever impersonator being the go to guy for duplicating threats that I somehow let get through. but they don't quite cut it when it's all said and done against say... legacy burn zoo and d&t

TNB seems solid enough to not cut at all.
Death's Shadow is a card that really relies upon you being able to control your life total, something that is best done, ironically, in Green/White. Most of Black's lifegain effects are sorcery speed.
Clever Impersonator is one of those cards I don't quite know what to make of. I used to run Phyrexian Metamorph in a few decks, but since the legendary rule change, my main reason for putting it anywhere evaporated.

Have you considered cards like Vedalken Shackles? Borrow the opponent's creatures and make them handle them? It's kind of pricey (5 for the first critter, if I remember right), and I never really got a chance to fully check it out, but it might be a removal "spell" to consider.

Feral Lunatic

LiaThistle

TNB seems solid enough to not cut at all.
Death's Shadow is a card that really relies upon you being able to control your life total, something that is best done, ironically, in Green/White. Most of Black's lifegain effects are sorcery speed.
Clever Impersonator is one of those cards I don't quite know what to make of. I used to run Phyrexian Metamorph in a few decks, but since the legendary rule change, my main reason for putting it anywhere evaporated.

Have you considered cards like Vedalken Shackles? Borrow the opponent's creatures and make them handle them? It's kind of pricey (5 for the first critter, if I remember right), and I never really got a chance to fully check it out, but it might be a removal "spell" to consider.


So the big canidates for being cut are the shadow and the impersonator... who is not proactive but reactive. which leaves me with my back up creature list

Tombstalker
Dark confidant
Vendillion clique
Snapcaster mage
Giest st traft

Though I feel confidant would do me more harm than good in this deck without access to true dual lands.

Other options are

Moat
Veldalken shackles
Engineered explosives
And the bridge you mentioned

Dedcadent Pants

Raksha-Jareth
So the big canidates for being cut are the shadow and the impersonator... who is not proactive but reactive. which leaves me with my back up creature list

Tombstalker
Dark confidant
Vendillion clique
Snapcaster mage
Giest st traft

Though I feel confidant would do me more harm than good in this deck without access to true dual lands.

Other options are

Moat
Veldalken shackles
Engineered explosives
And the bridge you mentioned

You have Ego (Snapcaster) and you're not running it? Has it really been outmoded that much?

Traft is more tempo than control.

Clique seems slow, honestly. Tombstalker I like, if for no other reason than it's a 2-for-1 unless your opponent gets a lucky Swords/Path.

The thing with Confidant is CMCs. If you have low CMCs, then your mana base is probably fine, though you definitely move out of control and into tempo, and should adjust your deck accordingly.

Moat is too color intensive for a deck with only 3 white mana producers. If you were running Mox Diamonds, that'd be fine, but then you'd be running more than 3 white mana producers. EE is kinda similar, though I do enjoy EE at 0, 1, and 2. I enjoy EE even more with Academy Ruins, but that might be too much of a strain on your mana base.

As per usual, everything is your call.

Feral Lunatic

No snapcaster is still very much relavent. the problem is I already am using them in another deck and didn't want to get more.

Ok then thanks lia. I'll work off this and see what I can come up with

Feral Lunatic

Sacrifices 3 dignity and casts dread return returning this topic from the graveyard.

So after much testing and consideration I think I found a solution I like but it could use some tweaks.

New decklist

Creatures
X 4 spellstutter sprite
X 4 baleful strix
X 3 scion of oona
X 2 vendilion clique

Sorceries
X 4 gitaxian probe
X 4 hymn to tourach

Instants
X 4 brainstorm
X 4 swords to plowshares
X 3 daze
X 4 force of will

Enchantments
X 2 bitterblossom

Planeswalkers
X 1 liliana of the veil
X 1 jace the mindsculptor

Land
X 2 flooded strand
X 2 hallowed fountain
X 4 polluted delta
X 4 watery grave
X 4 wasteland
X 2 faerie conclave
X 1 island
X 1 swamp

I've got some cards I'm considering as alternatives as well

Duress
Cloud of faeries
Sower of temptation
Cloudshift

Any thought or advice would be very welcome.
I see you have Forces in your deck.
This means, I'm assuming, that you're gonna go Legacy?
If you're gonna go legacy Esper control there are SO MANY better cards. So many. You're running black, why no thoughsiezes? Or Cabal Therapies?
And I agree with whoever said Vindi Clique.
Also, can I ask why you're running Bitterblossom?
I understand, it's a great card but it doesn't fit a control deck at all. You'll pitch all your life by the time you have the mana for board control.
Even something like Arguary owl would be better I think.

Feral Lunatic

Holy Bonanza
Also, can I ask why you're running Bitterblossom?
I understand, it's a great card but it doesn't fit a control deck at all. You'll pitch all your life by the time you have the mana for board control.
Even something like Arguary owl would be better I think.


At this point the white has been purged from the deck so I make no pretenses that it is esper anymore. I also have made several other changes to even the last deck list as I have had chances to actually test the deck.

I agree that thoughtseize is in itself a far superior card to hymn to tourach... and while I would love to run both i'm finding myself thinking that TS will replace hymn shortly here too.

To attend to the matter of bitter blossom... it serves three purposes in this deck though your observation is correct in that it does put pressure on me in terms of my life total. The benefits however have been astounding. Firstly is the faerie count which allows my spellstutters to act as far more efficient counterspells. On their own they can be quite devastating but with the aid of BB the SSS can effectively shut down any spell. Secondly the BB produces an army of fully expendable creatures which can be used to block most threats. Though this is somewhat limited in the numbers aspect the dominating deck around this part is U/R delver and the BB counters the numbers advantage of young pyromancer to a degree and allows me to block delvers and swiftspears which would otherwise be quite a nuisance. Lastly they act as a source of damage. Though delver is the predominant archetype here the presence of elves and merfolk as well make the flying threats quite a nuisance that when left unchecked often leads to victories. That isn't to say that I don't lose. One deck I found particularly hard to overcome is legacy burn...

Lastly to address the vendilion clique. I am somewhat still unsure about the clique and it's overall speed. I am however not unsure about it's utility. It is a form of cycling when I need that, a form of hand disruption when that is so required. It is an impressive attacker in it's own right and often is the key to victory in terms of damage. I am not all sold on it but i for the most part do like it.

Now some other changes I have made. I have included dig through time over mistbind clique and the results have so far been favorable though I require additional testing still. I also have removed swords to plowshares and have replaced it with innocent blood. some other small changes have been made to numbers but overall this is the whole of it.
If you're looking to run spellstutter then you should just go full faerie tribal. Especially if you'r already running bitterblossoms and faerie conclaves. This also means you can run vindis more effectively.
Also, bitterblossom should be the first thing sideboard out against any burn, especially pyromancer. Because life is so important against them and I guarantee that I 1/1 flier isnt going to be worth it against them.
If you're ok with not going tribal, and you run the format of legacy, flusterstorm is better against red than spellstutter.

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