The problem with elves and long lived races

[Katane]

So I have an issue with D&D elves. They make no sense. They have a lifespan that far exceeds any of the other base races. And not only that, they only need about half as much sleep. And heck, it may only be a bit of flavor, but according to the Players Handbook, they don't dream as other races do, instead they go through mental training exercises while "trancing".

So they have the advantage of all this extra time on their hands... how are they not the dominant race at everything? A level one elven character is going to be at least a hundred years old... so how does it make sense that the level one human gets extra skill points despite only being 20 something? There are only a few explainations that I can think of that make sense:

1) Elves are terribly immature, flighty creatures that don't really dedicate themselves to serious pursuits or the building of skills and knowledge. While they are often portrayed as fun loving, this doesn't really match the stereotypical "old wise elf" stereotype.

2) They are incredibly wise and patient, but slow. They could spend vast amounts of time reflecting on a single thought before moving on to something new. This could sorta work, except that that of person would be unlikely to become an adventurer. And most people would rather roleplay an adventurer than a philosopher.

3) They mature incredibly slowly, so that while they live much longer, they also have much longer childhoods. However, I don't think this is the canon for D&D at least, and creates the thematic issue of 30 year old elves in diapers, which just seems wrong.

It could be a combination of those things I suppose. And I know that for a game like D&D it's a balance issue; they can't make elves significantly better than the other races, so they don't really get any statistical benefits from the age thing. But even glossing over that, there are issues.

How does the elven population keep itself in check? If you mature at generally the same rate as other races but can live to be 1000 years old, you could have a ridiculous number of babies! Do they have really low fertility rates? Do they have strict cultural sanctions that keep their population in line? Really really long gestation periods?

What about relations with other races? Why would elves mate with humans when it results in offspring they're practically gaurunteed to outlive? I'm playing an elven swashbuckler right now who's really promiscuous but refuses to have sex with humans because of this. His friends think he's racist, but really he just doesn't want to get too emotionally close to people who are going to die in only a few decades. At the ripe young age of 132 he's already seen many humans die.

Plus there are some story telling challenges with this. It's really hard to have an ancient mystery when some elf can just pop up and be all "Oh, you mean those 500 year old ruins? Yeah, I totally remember when those were built, let me tell you all about it."

As I DM, I dealt with this by making all races have relatively the same lifespan in my world. For the most part, the upper limit is around 120. Elves can live to be older, but only within the confines of their own ancestral homeland, whose magic sustains them. This means that adventuring elves (aka any of my players) are necesarilly younger. This got rid of several story telling issues for me, plus gave my world a bit of flavor that I like.

There are other examples of this, though I think D&D elves are the worst. You get some of the same issues, for example, with the Asari from Mass Effect, but I think the writers handled it pretty well for the most part.

What do you think? Are you annoyed with the issues that longer lived races present? How have you handled it in your games? Am I alone in even thinking about this stuff?

[Tralk]

For the most part, elves do mature more slowly, due mostly in part to their longer lifespan. Also, if you follow certain third party sources, elves have a much lower chance of conception. While humans are 10% likely to conceive, elves are somewhere around 5%. And if I'm not mistaken they either have shorter, or longer pregnancies, which are much easier than human pregnancies.

So, part of it is they don't pop out as fast as we do. Of course, goblins pop out about as fast as rabbits. Why aren't they the dominant race? They're dumb.

Humans are more industrious. We have shorter lives, therefor we develop technology faster. Elves don't have to worry about short lifespans, and so they can take time developing things.


Of course, nowhere in D&D have I ever read that elves can't be or aren't a dominant race.

[Space Uppercut]

The main reason there were racial level restrictions for Original, Basic, First, and Second edition of Dungeons and Dragons was to answer the longevity issue. Humans can level to unlimited levels, but Elves, Halflings, and Dwarves were stuck around fourteen at best (about the same level as the best subclass). So, in a crunch sense, that usually solved that problem until people cried about it until it was changed in Third Edition.

On the fluff, I'm remembering an article written by Gygax that addressed this. Something about Elves being unable to reproduce well with one another, but better with humans. Half-Elves normally greater than the full Elf population. Of course, WOTC is hesitant to put out anything about reproduction in their products, but you do have a good point that ought to be better explained.

[Lazarous]

You also have 4) Elves are pretty darn dumb. While a human craftsman can learn his trade in a decade or two, an elf needs a full century to really grasp the complexities. They have to trance train because they need to constantly repeat what they know or forget all about it. The reason they don't appear as morons to other people is because their constant training has given them a wide set of situational knowledge that they can draw allegories to and rely on in an unfamiliar situation.

[nukeman8000]

Lazarous

You also have 4) Elves are pretty darn dumb. While a human craftsman can learn his trade in a decade or two, an elf needs a full century to really grasp the complexities. They have to trance train because they need to constantly repeat what they know or forget all about it. The reason they don't appear as morons to other people is because their constant training has given them a wide set of situational knowledge that they can draw allegories to and rely on in an unfamiliar situation.

This made me laugh.
But in all honesty, i don't think that that's really a reasonable explanation, partly because it would not sit well with most players as it changes something fundamental about elves, and because it "puts down" a very popular race.

[Lazarous]

nukeman8000

Lazarous

You also have 4) Elves are pretty darn dumb. While a human craftsman can learn his trade in a decade or two, an elf needs a full century to really grasp the complexities. They have to trance train because they need to constantly repeat what they know or forget all about it. The reason they don't appear as morons to other people is because their constant training has given them a wide set of situational knowledge that they can draw allegories to and rely on in an unfamiliar situation.

This made me laugh.
But in all honesty, i don't think that that's really a reasonable explanation, partly because it would not sit well with most players as it changes something fundamental about elves, and because it "puts down" a very popular race.

Glad to entertain.

In my opinion elves were first put into roleplaying games as an entire race of pointy-eared Mary Sue's ("so my character's got pointy ears, can see in the dark, talk to animals, doesn't have to sleep, is super agile and super pretty and she's called Raven but in a language that sounds like music" ). They should never have been available as a PC race without some thorough editing.

If elves give you ulcers, clap your hands! *clap clap*

[nukeman8000]

Lazarous

nukeman8000

Lazarous

You also have 4) Elves are pretty darn dumb. While a human craftsman can learn his trade in a decade or two, an elf needs a full century to really grasp the complexities. They have to trance train because they need to constantly repeat what they know or forget all about it. The reason they don't appear as morons to other people is because their constant training has given them a wide set of situational knowledge that they can draw allegories to and rely on in an unfamiliar situation.

This made me laugh.
But in all honesty, i don't think that that's really a reasonable explanation, partly because it would not sit well with most players as it changes something fundamental about elves, and because it "puts down" a very popular race.

Glad to entertain.

In my opinion elves were first put into roleplaying games as an entire race of pointy-eared Mary Sue's ("so my character's got pointy ears, can see in the dark, talk to animals, doesn't have to sleep, is super agile and super pretty and she's called Raven but in a language that sounds like music" ). They should never have been available as a PC race without some thorough editing.

If elves give you ulcers, clap your hands! *clap clap*

*clap *clap*
They definitely cause more problems than they solve, and some players hate them with a passion. If i had a nickel for every time i heard "Elves lay eggs"....
But they have their diehard fans as well, and those people would uproar at a change like this, they would hate it.

[Space Uppercut]

Lazarous

Glad to entertain.

In my opinion elves were first put into roleplaying games as an entire race of pointy-eared Mary Sue's ("so my character's got pointy ears, can see in the dark, talk to animals, doesn't have to sleep, is super agile and super pretty and she's called Raven but in a language that sounds like music" ). They should never have been available as a PC race without some thorough editing.

If elves give you ulcers, clap your hands! *clap clap*

The first time Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings were put into role-playing games, not counting their brief stint as elite units in wargames, they were their own class into themselves. You weren't an Elf wizard or Elf Druid. You were just a damn Elf which developed like a wizard with less spells and with a level cap.

You can blame Dragonlance novels, R. A. Salvatore, and Tolkien for the Elf-love.

Oh and *clap clap*. Though much less now as everyone nowadays wants to be half-fiend pony with assassin abilities or w/e

[Lazarous]

nukeman8000

*clap *clap*
They definitely cause more problems than they solve, and some players hate them with a passion. If i had a nickel for every time i heard "Elves lay eggs"....
But they have their diehard fans as well, and those people would uproar at a change like this, they would hate it.

But do they love them because they love elves or because they love the bonuses that picking the race brings? I would say that in the latter case they have no ground to stand on. In the former case, I could probably stand elves a lot better if their racial abilities had to be purchased and were available for anyone who could put up the fluff.

Space Uppercut

The first time Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings were put into role-playing games, not counting their brief stint as elite units in wargames, they were their own class into themselves. You weren't an Elf wizard or Elf Druid. You were just a damn Elf which developed like a wizard with less spells and with a level cap.

You can blame Dragonlance novels, R. A. Salvatore, and Tolkien for the Elf-love.

Oh and *clap clap*. Though much less now as everyone nowadays wants to be half-fiend pony with assassin abilities or w/e

Ooh, interesting tidbit. Do you know if those proto-classes were balanced, so that a Halfling was roughly as useful as an Elf? Or were the Elves naturally superior even then?

I can't blame the authors for creating characters and races that people found interesting and wanted to emulate; that's just part of good writing. I can blame the game designers who got caught up in the hype and said "elves are so cool, so let's make them super-cool in the game by giving them all sorts of cool abilities".

Fad of the year, I suppose. Last year it was vampires and the year before that it was half-elf, half-werewolf, half-demon, half-angel, half-vampire, half-dragon magic knights with abusive parents..

[Space Uppercut]

Lazarous

Ooh, interesting tidbit. Do you know if those proto-classes were balanced, so that a Halfling was roughly as useful as an Elf? Or were the Elves naturally superior even then?

I can't blame the authors for creating characters and races that people found interesting and wanted to emulate; that's just part of good writing. I can blame the game designers who got caught up in the hype and said "elves are so cool, so let's make them super-cool in the game by giving them all sorts of cool abilities".

Fad of the year, I suppose. Last year it was vampires and the year before that it was half-elf, half-werewolf, half-demon, half-angel, half-vampire, half-dragon magic knights with abusive parents..

Well, D&D has always changed with the times. First Edition was more akin to the Rankin and Bass "Hobbit" movie. Second edition was more alike Conan the Barbarian, Hawk the Slayer, and Legend. Third Edition still has that second edition feel, but you get more action movies. It started to change thanks to Computer Games present in that day. 3.5 started to really focus on BALANCE, which was never a big deal until that edition. Fourth Edition was full on WoW with Final Fantasy art. I mean, look at the fads then and compare them to the edition at the time and you'll get an idea of D&D. Original D&D (When Dave Arneson was co-creator) it was more focused on Jack Vance's and Edgar Rice Burroughs' (Yes, I'm talking about the John Carter of Mars series... can't wait to see the movie) work.

Anyway: of Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling, I specifically remember Halfling being the most OP if we went by the Mentzer rules (which is Basic D&D). Original D&D, Elf was significantly OP. They can progress as a Magic User elf or a Fighting Man elf (you'd still be merely known as ELF) and you can switch between the two classes at any time, though Elves could only attain a level of 4 for fighter elf and level of 8 for Magic User. So, at best, they could cap off at level 12ish in a form. They weren't amazingly powerful as a human Magic User or fighting man. Basic D&D introduced a unified leveling route and Elf was merely a glorified Magic User. Halflings on the other hand were boss. If I remember at level one you could disappear from sight anytime you want 1/3 of the time if you had the right stats (which you normally did).

Anyway, everyone was weak in Original and Basic. It was the idea of the Conan series. Low level you're an adventurer for hire, seeking a fortune. Mid level you're trying to gain influence and start taking world shaking quests. High level was you forming an empire and creating a nation. There was a focus on leadership at end game, but a dragon could still kick your a** easily. Hell, certain boss-type monsters from low-level could kill you. You're still mortal, so everyone had a feeling of weakness in common.

[Katane]

I used to hate elves, but playing one has really brought me around. I think any race is redeemable, if you really put thought into the character. I'm not a power gamer, though, which probably makes a difference.

I like to imagine that even though elves can live to be 900, it's exceedingly rare. After all, they're still just as mortal as any other race. If you live long enough you're bound to get unlucky and be in a fatal accident or get sick eventually. Therefore truely ancient elves would be greatly revered for their wisdom and experience.

[GunsmithKitten]

Space Uppercut

Oh and *clap clap*. Though much less now as everyone nowadays wants to be half-fiend pony with assassin abilities or w/e

*SIGH* You young whippersnappers. Back in MY day of D&D gaming, ponies were just the things you attached your carts full of swag to!

Anyhou, in most of our worlds, we have a simple write off regarding elven characters; namely isolated decadence. They dont' dominate because they don't have the numbers, and even if they did, they just don't care anymore. The elves in our worlds tend to live cloistered, uneventful, boring lives just waiting to die out. It's in fact the socially rejected stir crazy rebellious kids (yes kids, all elven characters in our campaigns are in the "petulant teenager" stage of their lives) in elven society that go adventuring, or the ones that shamed themselves so bad that they're n ot allowed back in their nice elaborate societies ever again. Cliche, yea, but it gets the job done.

[Space Uppercut]

GunsmithKitten

*SIGH* You young whippersnappers. Back in MY day of D&D gaming, ponies were just the things you attached your carts full of swag to!.

In my day, we used mules because Ral Partha had made awesome minis for that. Pony was a dirty word. xD

[The Lobster Queen]

I would also like to add in a *clap* *clap*.

I never really thought much about elves until I DM'd my first game, at which point, just like another poster said, a certain incident came up-

"This text seems to indicate that the settlement was swallowed up by the earth about seven hundred years ago."

"Oh! I think I would remember something like that, since I was alive then! Can you tell me more?"

emotion_facepalm

My bad, but I honestly hadn't anticipated it at all. I had to throw out a quick excuse to the tune of "This settlement was on the outskirts of civilization at the time, and not on any major trade networks - word didn't travel far outside of the immediate area."

The elven players I've met also had a tendency to be very racist and cliquey towards the non-elves, to the point where, in my game, the players of human PCs would come up to me afterwards to complain. I did talk to the elven players, but they generally went back to their old ways because "elves are superior, and they know it".

Problem was nipped in the bud by the introduction of a dragon NPC that viewed elves the same way the elves viewed the humans. emotion_dowant Immature, yes, but this is what things devolved into largely due to the rampant elf Mary Sueism.

(Secondary to elves are the "I want to play a half-demon warlock of the Elder Gods - in this party of Good-aligned characters (no, it's cool, I'll totally RP it out, you'll see)! - and have a flying sparklepony mount", but those are easily dealt with in the "get out of my house" way.)

[Laertes Ursus]

I shall not clap. I like Elves. I understand the sueism behind it, but there's nothing inherently wrong with Elves so long as you don't up-play their positive qualities. Regarless of the reason, the ******** take 100 years to reach an age fit for adventuring, decades longer than the next longest-lived race. They 'trance', good for them. They're still considered more or less asleep and absorbed in trying to process everything that happened in the day. Ignore the fact that they have Sue potential and do what I do: Play them more or less like pointy-eared Humans. It works well until you go to Elven lands, at least. And by then, the GM will have an excuse, I'm sure.