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Like Pathfinder?

Yep 0.44391785150079 44.4% [ 281 ]
Seems good 0.16429699842022 16.4% [ 104 ]
No 0.063191153238547 6.3% [ 40 ]
I'm Alpha testing it 0.056872037914692 5.7% [ 36 ]
Whats pathfinder? 0.15481832543444 15.5% [ 98 ]
I'm a whore 0.028436018957346 2.8% [ 18 ]
I'm a bigger whore 0.088467614533965 8.8% [ 56 ]
Total Votes:[ 633 ]
ThePhantomSquee's avatar

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I've generally heard that it's pretty weak compared to a vanilla summoner, actually. I mean, the summoner's main strength is the way it takes advantage of action economy, so taking that aspect away would kind of make them into a glorified gish, wouldn't it?

Granted, I haven't looked in depth at it, so take that with a grain of salt.
Fan_Boy's avatar

Dapper Explorer

I played a vanilla Summoner in a game for quite a few levels worth (we all drew classes from a hat during character creation) and I found that by far the greater part of the summoner was the Eidolon followed closely by the Monster Summoning ablility. The Summoner him/her self was rather pathetic actually - a very limited selection of attack magic and access to only simple weapons and light armour means most of actions were negligable in effectiveness, while the Eidolon was a beast. The Synergist melds the two as one and effectively stacks their HP and protects the otherwise squishy Summoner in an awesome battle suit that can easily match a front line fighter with the benefit of being able to self buff.

Edit: by 5th level the Synergist could have resistance:10 to all energy types as well as +8 natural armour, an 18 strength, 14 con and dex, and 2 slam attacks that do 1d8 each (2d6 if you forgo one of the resistances or take the extra evolution feat). Also a potential max HP of 93 assuming you could swing a CON of 12 on the summoner ...
Fan_Boy's avatar

Dapper Explorer

Although thinking about it, there was one player that wanted to be a dragon but the prohibitive CRs made it impossible to make it a reality. It could be possible to create a dragon themed Synergist and alter the spell list slightly to make it a little more dragon-like (maybe adding in the spell-like abilities of the dragon and maybe something to simulate the breath weapon as potential spells known)
Positive there is a Sorcerer with Dragon Blood line, and or Young dragon at a CR monster temple or some sort.
Fan_Boy's avatar

Dapper Explorer

Insanity Logic
Positive there is a Sorcerer with Dragon Blood line, and or Young dragon at a CR monster temple or some sort.

She wanted to play as a Red Dragon, and even the youngest newly hatched Red has a CR greater than the beginning CR we were aiming at (CR 4). I'll be playing around with a Synergist build today and see what the player thinks of it. Maybe I'll even put the build up here and see what everyone else thinks about it. I'm definitely thinking making the base race as a Kobold ... maybe even a Red scaled one ...
Fan_Boy's avatar

Dapper Explorer

Well, the player didn't like the idea so much, But I did throw together a decent build

Red Scaled Kobold with a medium sized quadruped Eidolon. Ends up with DTR 16, DEX 16, CON 14, bite (1½ strength), and 2 claws, Natural Armour +10, fire resist 10, Flight (dragon wings) and a tail. All with one point left over, maybe a second point if the Kobold takes Extra evolution as a feet. In the later case I would suggest taking an additional +2 strength and take the improved damage evolution when the "dragon" can be made large. Oh, and it provides a +2 shield bonus to AC and a +2 on saves, Dimension door 1/day and a +4 on saves vs enchantment.

On to the Kobold itself, It would have 2 feats left assuming that Extra Evolution is taken. I'm thinking allowing a variant of the Battle Mage feat to allow for some extra dragon themed spells, specifically Burning hands (and later a fire subbed cone of cold or cone shaped fireball) to simulate a breath weapon, and suggestion, pyrotechnics, wall of fire, find the path and discern location to grant access to the spells a red dragon gets with age.

As for equipment, the Kobold really doesn't need a lot. Armour doesn't help in the dragon form (which would be as often as possible) and weapons would be pointless. The best would be something like a cloak of resistance, or some wands to get additional "breath weapons" per day if necessary.

EDIT: 6000gp would give the Kobold an Amulet that could let him cast a 5d4 Burning Hands 3/day. Maybe a little less if the Amulet was restricted to creatures with the Reptilian subtype or required a cool down period between uses ... the rest would probably be the beginnings of a hoard.
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Invisible Phantom

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Gotta love the infinite 0 level spells. Also I once bought alchemist's kindness just for fun(cures hangovers). My guy took a memory erasing potion and it had the same effect.
My guy was the only one suspicious of the potion before and after he drank it.
Xerkxes's avatar

Blessed Duelist

I'd like some opinion.

Now, I play in a group that's open to all editions, Pathfinder, 3.5, 4th, we even enjoyed the 5th edition playtest.
and now, for the time being we may be switching from 4th edition to pathfinder.
But, there is a "player" among who while prefers 4th edition is more than happy to go to Pathfinder, but he got all snotty with me when I said I wanted to play an Incarnate from 3.5 Magic of Incarnum, as next to nothing has to be done to convert it up to Pathfinder.

DM's already said outright I could, but whenever given the chance he keeps bringing back up the argument that I shouldn't be playing something from the older version, under the notion "Pathfinder can stand up on it's own, we should just stick to s**t we find in it's rules", and takes it almost offensively that I should even try to play what anything from my favorite sourcebook that is unlikely to ever be brought back up again in future versions of DnD except maybe within references (as 4th has Psionics stuff using names and some loosely related fluff from incaranum).

That being said..
What's everyone else's opinion too mixing material from 3.5 and pathfinder?
Brasten's avatar

Aged Informer

The same as my take when I came to using 3.0 material in 3.5. Look it over and see if anything needs to be changed. Compare it to existing content that has been "converted" and see if an similar changes need to be done. Check new matertial and see if there is a better/logical replacment.

Outside of that, game on.

No one has Pathfinderized some of the older 3.5 stuff is because it was Closed Content, under copy right protection and something that Paizo and 3rd Parties could not touch. For the most part it's okay to use as is. Just follow the conversion guidelines, consolidate class skills, and align HD to BAB.

Many of the later 3.5 class were superior to the Core classes which is partly why Pathfinder went back and redid and reupped those Core Base classes. Most 3.5 supplement class do not need the same treatment.
o.O They're making a 5th edition?

Did they realise 4th sucked or something?
Brasten's avatar

Aged Informer

To be fair they manged to push it through three "core" book runs and a 4.5ish if you count Essentials over 5 years. Which is 3 longer then I would have expected. They also had to deal with one of the worst global recessions/depressions in recent times. Certainly for the US since the 1970s. However they've really hit the end of life, which was fairly clear when one just looked at their release schedual. Also they were almost annually turning over the lower ranks of the design team. You don't do that when a brand is doing well.

Wizards blind spot has always been adventures. Which is where Paizo is really riding well.

The other issue I see is that Wizards has never been able to integrate technology well with its various products and as result is in a bad position in an increasingly mobile driven computing world. Thier arms length approach to digital books is equally bad, one I don't see changing anytime soon.

Which reminds me, I need to see where HeroLab is with their Mac/iPad character builder.
Liquidor's avatar

Original Player

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Cunning Witch Angus
o.O They're making a 5th edition?

Did they realise 4th sucked or something?

They started work on 4th Edition after 5 years of 3.x. Its been about 4 years of 4th. They'll keep producing stuff for 4ed for another 2-5 years depending on how well the playtest goes. At the end of its cycle, I predict that 4ed will end up with more books than 3.x (official content).
Brasten's avatar

Aged Informer

Time to get this thread chugging again. I'm starting work on a new project titles Rush to Epic. The end goal is a short guide to playing one of the most over the top styles of Pathfinder you are likely to ever try. Inspired by a series games from my own past (and recounted here on Gaia enough times to make me look senile), Rush to Epic should leave you going "this is just crazy, why would anyone even think of playing this way." My target is to work on one section a day, and present it here for comment/critique/discussion... beginning with the forward.

Rush to Epic
A guide to Fast Epic Fantasy Gestalt play with Monstrous Races


Back in 2002 my mates and I were had a rip roaring time playing in a D&D game that came to be known as “The Rush to Epic.” This came about when one of your gaming group members got a copy of the Epic Level Handbook, a rather thick volume dedicated to playing characters and running games beyond 20th level.

The first iteration of “Rush to Epic” did take the party all the way past 20th level and a bit beyond before outside circumstances forced its end. A few years later we had a chance to try it again but this time the DM who started this rather super powered style of play wanted to up things another notch. In between the first “Rush to Epic” and this second go the books Savage Species and Unearthed Arcana books had been published. These introduced two new elements, playing monsters as classes and advancing two classes at once (also know as gestalt).

The second “Rush to Epic” did not last quite as long as the first, but was even crazier in terms of challenges and battles that the DM could, and did, throw at the party. The most mind blowing character of the group was an Orc Half-Minotaur True Weretiger Vampire Warshaper who was angling to become the undisputed champion of Orc’s primary god. If you are trying to wrap your head around how this was even done I will advise you to stop— unless you have copies of Dragon Magazine 313, Savage Species, Unearthed Arcana, Complete Warrior, two web articles from Sean Reynolds Savage Progressions series, and about 5 hours.

If that wasn’t enough there was even a 3rd attempted at a “Rush to Epic” where things got even more monstrous. Unfortunately this didn’t last very long as real life generally has a bit of dragging even the best gaming groups down eventually. However the sprit of the Rush to Epic lures those who have sampled its madness.

This handbook is intended to help shepherd Gamemasters and Players alike in a Rush to Epic using the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game with various tools, tricks, and guidelines.

Section 1: The Materials

There are two main pieces that make a Rush to Epic the beast it is, playing two classes at once and playing a monster race.

The first is a set of guidelines originally published in Unearthed Arcana called Gestalt Characters. Gestalt characters combined two standard character classes into a single progression that took the best aspects of both. Many players who enjoy powerful play try to use these guidelines in many different ways. The simplest method is to lock players into a single pair of classes. The most extreme attempt include something similar to normal multiclassing, if anything in gestalt play can be considered “normal.” The complexity trying to track multiclassing gestalt can quickly get out of hand and definitely requires a certain level of system mastery. Chapter 2 offers a modified version of gestalt guidelines which streamlines the process and takes advantage of various features that Pathfinder introduced. Appendix 1 contains the original OGC version for those who interested in trying a less structured approach.

The second are rules for playing as monster races and slowly progressing them during the course of play. This guide suggests adapting one of two different sets of existing rules in various Pathfinder supplements. The Advanced Races book by Paizo includes a chapter on building your own races using existing monsters a guides. This is the bases for the “standard” method in chapter 3 which references rules from chapter 4 of the Advanced Races book, and I strongly recommend that you obtain a copy (I have no interest in reprinting and formatting 20 odd pages worth of rules when you can support Paizo with a minimum of 10 USD PDF). The “monstrosity” method on the other hand references rules from the Advanced Player’s Guide (again, buy the PDF at least) that covers the Summoner class’ Eidolon companion.

You will need:
• the modified Gestalt in chapter 2 of this guide
• a copy of Advanced Races or the Advanced Player’s Guide

Section 2: The Method

While the following chapters will provide the full details of the exact rules and guidelines, I will provide a short overview here.

Rush to Epic does exactly what its name says, rush player characters to epic (post-20) levels of play as quickly as possible. Characters are substantially more powerful then normal Pathfinder characters. The game runs best on the Fast experience track, using Epic ability score purchase (25 points), and maximum hit points. There is a sidebar for players and GMs who like more randomized character generation.

The fast advancement, outrageous ability scores, monster race, and two class worth of abilities are all intended to allow the Gamemaster throw absolutely brutal challenges at the characters from the start. Why send one Grick (PRPG, Bestiary 2, pg. 146) when you can swarm a full cluster (5) or even five full clusters. However it is not intended to open season on killing player characters. Even in something as over the top as Rush to Epic there are guidelines to help a GM from pushing a party too far. One of the first guidelines is the general goal of making sure the characters get enough experience to gain at least one level every time you end a gaming session, preferably two. Dealing with this kind of balance is covered in chapter 5

Once characters have been “rushed” to 20th level the game can begin to slow down and take on a more normal speed. Chapter 6 presents one method for handling post-20 play and advancement. The original Epic Level Handbook used a system of continual growth, which lead to its own problems. This guide instead uses a system similar to some prior editions of Dungeons and Dragons, as well some as fan created systems, where characters stop gaining power powerful options but instead gain a breath options. Gamemasters who wish to explore other post-20 play options are free to do so, and suggestion on how to link those rules to these will be discussed as well.

Section 3: The Madness

If this whole idea seems crazy to you at this point, you're not alone. I think this is crazy. It is insane. It is tends to color so far outside of what’s considered “normal” it tends to go off the page. It is also a great deal of fun. While the overpowered combat aspect will appeal to a certain segment of the player base, that isn’t all this kind of play has to offer.

Events and adventure options are also grander in scope. Characters will often be able to participate in just about every kind of encounter because they have far more resources to call on. The two class nature of gestalt play alone allows players to take on two different roles at once. This means that encounters can be more diverse and inclusive. For example in a normal dungeon crawl the party will lag behind the trap finder (often a rogue) as he or she checks each floor stone and key hole for traps. In a Rush to Epic every party member could have such skills, meaning a GM can fill every 5 foot square with a trap and not have to worry about focusing too much on a single player. Better still the GM can feel save in creating such evil things as trapped traps which require two or more characters to use those skills in overcoming the challenge.

From combat, to dungeon crawling, through social encounters, virtually everyone will have something to contribute.

It is also a great way to explore new classes while having something familiar to fall back on. The fast advancement allows a player to have a taste of each level of play and just enough time to become familiar with the different options along the way.


Chapter 1: Gestalt
Chapter 2: Monster Race
Chapter 3: Game Mastering
Chapter 4: Post 20
Liquidor's avatar

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Whats the best race for an INT bonus for pathfinder?

For D&D 3.x with no LA? With +1 LA? With +2 LA?
Brasten's avatar

Aged Informer

Whats the best race for an INT bonus for pathfinder?

For D&D 3.x with no LA? With +1 LA? With +2 LA?

Depends on what your objective is. Lots of +Int races chose from in Pathfinder. Human, Elf, Half-Elf, Ratfolk, Sylphs, and Tieflings. If you push it, Samsarans, Wayangs, and Drow Noble. That's not counting the Advanced Races Guide race builder section.

I'll direct you to D&D Guru for 3.5 specific recommendations.

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