[ Poll ] It's Pathfinder!!!!

Like Pathfinder?

Yep		23.6%	[ 51 ]
Seems good		18.1%	[ 39 ]
No		9.3%	[ 20 ]
I'm Alpha testing it		9.7%	[ 21 ]
Whats pathfinder?		26.4%	[ 57 ]
I'm a whore		3.2%	[ 7 ]
I'm a bigger whore		9.7%	[ 21 ]

Total Votes: 216

[Brasten]

Woops this may look bad but there was an update today.

The PRD was updated today with information from the Bestiary. If you don't have the book yet and are one of our lurkers, enjoy.

[Ying the Shadow Dragon]

Insanity Logic

So, I just read all the reviews on the tome of secrets book once more as I recently acquired it.

I was wondering, what are the pros and cons of this book do you think personally?

I found the everything generally over powered and not very well written. The half ogre seemed way stat heavy for example. I wish I didn't buy it.

[Insanity Logic]

Well, aren't the drow generally overpowered now too, doesn't the experience buy idea counter races and make them more balanced?

[Brasten]

My caution over 3rd party books is to give the main books a one year shelf use before looking at products. Even with an advanced look there are practical elements that can be missed by a small group. Just take a look at the some times silly raw rules blithering that is done (I do,it so I'm guilty there). It does help bring up rather weak areas and things to watch for in design work.

To quick out the gate. Likely the first 3rd party book I'll buy will be either a Tome of Horrors Pathfinder edition (as I regret missing the 3e and 3.5 books), and/or Dreamscarred's Psionics book (although I'm not exactly liking some of the extras they are adding in like getting extra PPs for the favored class).

And good, the PF Tarrasque has the correct number of feats and skill ranks, unlike the 3.5 Tarrasque which was under skilled. By something like 16 skill points if I tracked the math right. eek Spines!? And out to 600 feet!?

[Insanity Logic]

Yeah, least the jumped the CR from 20-25

Also, am I to understand correctly that CR/ECL is different now for players?

A Lvl 1 Human Fighter is a CR 1/2 = 0.5 CR?
So what does that make a Lvl 5 fighter? 2.5 CR?, 4 CR? ECL 2.5/4?

What, I'm so confused here.

[Brasten]

CR does not equal ECL! There is no ECL in Pathfinder. PCs techincally don't have CR, they are not challenges or 'monsters'. It sounds odd and it didn't make to much sense to me at first but it does kind of work, like someone walking but missing the toes on both feet.

Dont get to messed up on the fractions.

The formulas are actually really easy

No Racal HD, NPC class = Class Level - 2
No Racal HD, PC class = Class Level - 1

use this for negative CR1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8.
-1 = 1/2 <-- 1st level human fighter
-2 = 1/3 <-- 1st level human warrior
-3 = 1/4
-4 = 1/6
-5 = 1/8

A 5th level human fighter has a CR of 4.

=====

A Monster with race HD, say my favorate the Bugbear, uses a different method that is more art in a way (just because something is art doesn't mean it does't have firm or standard to help).

First you must find it's Key role (combat, skill, spell, special). Bugbears are clearly Skill creatures who tend to strike from the shadows, not in your face. Thus a 1st level rogue Bugbear gets a CR of 3. Key classes add +1 to monster(with HD) CR. Non key only add +1 every 2 levels.

Bugbear rogue 1 = CR 3
Bugbear sorcerer 2 = CR 3

=====

Now on PC monsters...

There are three ways they suggest to play monster games. For us I think the mixed party is what your having problems with (human PC paired with a bugbear PC). I actually don't like their system much because it assumes eveyone is leveling even. In practice it almost needs it's own XP tracking system.

In a group were everyone played every session and eveyonebgets the same XP their isn't an issue. Take the bugbear. In 3 levels (5th) he should get an extra level.

2nd: Bugbear
3rd: Bugbear Rogue 1
4th: Bugbear Rogue 2
4.5th: Bugbear Rogue 3 (only done once )
5th: Bugbear Rogue 4
6th+: Bugbear Rogue 5+

I'm still working out how this level jump is expresed. Even Paizo staff is having problems with it and they seem to be getting very defensive on the subject.

A monster character can have a starting CR equal to the party level. Example, a Bugbear pairs p with a 2nd Level Human.

*edit* note to self do not long post from iPod touch pad Xp.

[Insanity Logic]

Well, I'm gonna have to copy and paste that. lol.

BTW, I'm currently working on two feats and one flaw

Any suggestions?

My Homebrew Feats

Studied Defenses
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 16, Dodge
Benefit: You may add up to +1 point of your intelligence modifier to your armor class. You may take this feat multiple times, and each time you do so the maximum amount of intelligence modifier that you may add to your armor class increases by +1
Special: You do not gain this bonus if you are immobolized or considered helpless, or when you wear medium or heavy armor, and or carry a medium or heavy load.

Battle Trained Foresight
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 16, Dodge
Benefit: You may add up to +1 point of your wisdom modifier to your armor class. You may take this feat multiple times, and each time you do so the maximum amount of wisdom modifier that you may add to your armor class increases by +1
Special: You do not gain this bonus if you are immobilized or considered helpless, or when you wear medium or heavy armor, and or carry a medium or heavy load.

Flaw: Arcane Instability or Unstable Aracana
Prerequisite: Arcane Spellcaster
This instability activates every day for a total number equal to half the characters level (minimum One.) When the instability becomes active a random spell or spellslot is selected (Roll 1d100, divide spells evenly or as desired) The spell or spellslot is consumed and a burst of unstable arcane energy erupts from the caster outward five to twenty feet, dependent on spell's level. This burst acts in a number of ways, it either acts as a similar, weaker version of the spell consumed centered on the caster, deals 1d6 damage to all creatures within the radius, excluding the caster, or fills the area with unstable magical energies making all spells cast within the area a bit unstable for a number of rounds equal to the spells level. 5-10% spellfail while within radius of unstable magical energy.

[Insanity Logic]

I'm going to test my ability to judge balance and such. Help me out?


The ratkin from Tome of Secrets seems fairly balanced to me.

However, the Half-Ogre I would apply a -2 to charisma in addition, and or maybe make him pay an experience penalty though

The Saurian doesn't seem bad either.

The jump on the BaB and saves on the Artificer from 0 to 2, as well as his item creation abilities, especially magic items. Seems really sort of odd, and bullshit to me. Imbalanced, am I correct?

Could I get a rejump on what you guys think of the Tomb of Secrets Knight again?


The priest seems pretty balanced to me, though his fort save seems maybe 1 point too high, not sure. Am I correct on the balance part for him?

Shaman doesn't seem bad, seems fairly alright to me, what you guys think?


Some drawbacks are interesting, and seem fair, some seem like bullshit, and some just seem better suited towards the flaw system. Also if I'm not mistaken there are some mistakes in text. I did notice one with the warlord where it listed Knight, lol.
I see the Spellblades Arcane Armor Training and Immediately I cringe a bit, I'm thinking that it's 10% too high, especially considering the feat of the same name >.>

His ability to work enchantment magics makes me go hmm, but at the same time, it seems like it's the only thing that he can do, so it seems balanced enough, BUT, I'm really uncertain on this one, and more so leaning towards Imbalanced. but ><

I'd probably lower the Swashbucklers hitdice down to a d8, but other than that, he does seem a bit too powerful, though, with the hitdice round down.. Would it be balanced, or is he balanced enough as is?


Warlock kind of makes me go O.o ?? @.@ Hmm. Is he balanced?

Warlord seems Overpowered to me with his inspiration and weapon and damage bonus abilities, combined with his bonus feats. >.>


So basically the occupations are just a bonus, like if you were to give flaws and bonus feats, traits and such. It's just that sort of thing, for those players who need help role-playing.

They seem alright to me, maybe not perfectly balanced but it seems maybe roughly balanced. I dislike that some get a feat and others don't, but oh well.

I probably wouldn't use it myself, as I know other ways to do roleplaying backgrounds and encourage it instead of giving additional bonuses like that. But yeah. Good for new players I suppose. What do you guys think of them?

Moral Game System seemed alright, I don't think that I'd ever use it myself though.

As for the Stunt System, seems just like a rule guide for players and DM's who don't know how to use common sense, and circumstance bonuses and such.


The idea of Temporary Enchantments seems kind of cool. I think that allowing such spells would be alright, provided they are expensive and or rare.

I'd much rather just use regular rules and common sense to do a chase scene instead of learning a new set of chase rules that seem pointless. >< Will admit though, if one took time to use the chase system they have here. Probably be pretty awesome, but I don't think that it's worth the trouble.

The adventure generator was pretty cool, but we already have tons of those via other source books.

As for the rifles and such, I like the idea a bit, do you guys think these weapons are balanced? I'll take another look over at them, and HOLY SHI-

Anyone notice the WoW Dwarf Copy on page 185

[Brasten]

Can't really help you as I didn't buy it and likely won't. I was cautions about any 3rd party book put out right on the heels of the Core, as I said even with the advanced PRD copies some groups it still takes time create quality work.

What I will say is perhaps there is bad editing on the Artificer class, check it very carefully.

Save and BAB progression are easy to check, pull out your Core and run it against the Bad and Good saves on say a fighter. +12 is your top for Good, +6 your top for Bad.

HD and BAB are locked. You either drop to Average and a d8, or keep a Good and a d10. The way to off set IMO is to give some kind of class bonus to hit for the Average/d8. Mechanically it will make them just as likely to hit in combat but will limit full attacks and combat feat selection options.

Quote:

seems just like a rule guide for players and DM's who don't know how to use common sense, and circumstance bonuses and such

Doesn't this describe the whole of RPG game rules in general. They are a set of common guidelines to help people with common sense operate on the same page. The utility is in providing consistency to rulings.

[Insanity Logic]

I look at the aasimar and compare with the tiefling, it makes me go, wait.. .wtf

Aasimar Characters
Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Aasimars have the following racial traits.
+2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable.
Normal Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equals the aasimar's class level).
Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common and Celestial. Aasimars with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Sylvan.

Is there a typo, or does the Aasimar have no negative attribute at all.

I mean, lore wise it seems like he wouldn't, but balance wise it seems like he should...

I'm thinking a -2 to Dexterity OR Intelligence?

[Brasten]

Nope. There is a general rule in balancing stats for the most part that goes something like this: +2 Physical is = +4 Mental. Thus in the 3.5 if you wanted the old net stat boost of +0 for a base race and had +2 Wisdom +2 Charisma you'd need -2 to Str, Dex, or Con. Also in 3.5 the Aasimar didn't have any negatives.

Now in pathfinder your total bump is equal to +2 overall. The Aasimar is spot on at +2ish by the mental is weaker rule. So is the Tiefling by the same standard.

In terms of stat power I put

Dexterity (1st), Constitution, Strength, Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma. Although Intelligence and Wisdom can be interchangeable depending on how one values skills, it is Wisdoms boost to the will save that makes it good.

[Insanity Logic]

Brasten

Nope. There is a general rule in balancing stats for the most part that goes something like this: +2 Physical is = +4 Mental. Thus in the 3.5 if you wanted the old net stat boost of +0 for a base race and had +2 Wisdom +2 Charisma you'd need -2 to Str, Dex, or Con. Also in 3.5 the Aasimar didn't have any negatives.

Now in pathfinder your total bump is equal to +2 overall. The Aasimar is spot on at +2ish by the mental is weaker rule. So is the Tiefling by the same standard.

In terms of stat power I put

Dexterity (1st), Constitution, Strength, Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma. Although Intelligence and Wisdom can be interchangeable depending on how one values skills, it is Wisdoms boost to the will save that makes it good.

Sooooo.... In terms for someone who didn't really understand that too well? lol Sorry.

Also, did you get my message?

Edit
Okay, I went over it again, and I think that I may understand now

Old DnD 3.5 = For every Two +2 to mental stats you had, you needed one -2 to a physical score.

Pathfinder = You get a total of one +2 free for any base/core race. The second +2 has no penalty because it's a mental score, and not a ..

Okay, nevermind, I don't understand.. I'm just not getting it.

The Tiefling gets a negative because one of his bonuses are in a physical, so he gets a mental negative.

I'm just not understanding the Aasimar logic though.

[Brasten]

Lets put it in a Point Buy Terms. Generally a Mental Stat (Int, Wis, Cha) is worth .5 per +1 bonus, while a Physical Stat (Str, Dex, Con) is worth 1 per +1 bonus.

In Pathfinder all races have a net have a net +1 bonus to Physical class stats (i.e. +2 to the Physical ability score). Or 1 'point'.

Breaking it down by Core Races:

Dwarf: +2 Constitution( 1 point ), +2 Wisdom ( .5 points ), –2 Charisma (-.5 points); Net 1 point
Elf: +2 Dexterity ( 1 point), +2 Intelligence (.5 points), –2 Constitution (-1 point): Net .5 points
Human: +2 Any ( .5 to 1 point): Net, between .5 and 1.

So even between three of the main medium sized races you can see a range between .5 (being a net +2 to Mental) and 1 (net +2 to physical).

The Aasimar +2 Charisma (.5 pt), +2 Wisdom (.5 pt) comes to a net 1. This is within the range of PF base races for stats. Adding a penalty to a physical stat would take that to 0. Now you could add a -2 to Intelligence, lowering it to .5 however their is nothing in Aasimar that suggests they are dumber then humans. They are after all part blooded Celestial creatures.

Tiefling: +2 Dexterity (1 pt), +2 Intelligence (.5 pt), –2 Charisma (-.5 pt), net 1

Note: Once you go beyond this with races that give a very large bonus to a single stat the dynamic changes. In other words playing truly monstrous characters it is much harder then a simple formula.

[Insanity Logic]

Brasten

Lets put it in a Point Buy Terms. Generally a Mental Stat (Int, Wis, Cha) is worth .5 per +1 bonus, while a Physical Stat (Str, Dex, Con) is worth 1 per +1 bonus.

In Pathfinder all races have a net have a net +1 bonus to Physical class stats (i.e. +2 to the Physical ability score). Or 1 'point'.

Breaking it down by Core Races:

Dwarf: +2 Constitution( 1 point ), +2 Wisdom ( .5 points ), –2 Charisma (-.5 points); Net 1 point
Elf: +2 Dexterity ( 1 point), +2 Intelligence (.5 points), –2 Constitution (-1 point): Net .5 points
Human: +2 Any ( .5 to 1 point): Net, between .5 and 1.

So even between three of the main medium sized races you can see a range between .5 (being a net +2 to Mental) and 1 (net +2 to physical).

The Aasimar +2 Charisma (.5 pt), +2 Wisdom (.5 pt) comes to a net 1. This is within the range of PF base races for stats. Adding a penalty to a physical stat would take that to 0. Now you could add a -2 to Intelligence, lowering it to .5 however their is nothing in Aasimar that suggests they are dumber then humans. They are after all part blooded Celestial creatures.

Tiefling: +2 Dexterity (1 pt), +2 Intelligence (.5 pt), –2 Charisma (-.5 pt), net 1

Note: Once you go beyond this with races that give a very large bonus to a single stat the dynamic changes. In other words playing truly monstrous characters it is much harder then a simple formula.

You description doesn't add up. You noted.

Quote:

.5 per +1 bonus, while a Physical Stat (Str, Dex, Con) is worth 1 per +1 bonus.

By reading that I interpret that for ever +1 to an ability score, (I now however, assume that you mean for every +1 modifier granted. Is this correct as it would explain a HELL of a lot.)

If so, I thank you so very much.

[Sprainogre]

Brasten

My caution over 3rd party books is to give the main books a one year shelf use before looking at products. Even with an advanced look there are practical elements that can be missed by a small group. Just take a look at the some times silly raw rules blithering that is done (I do,it so I'm guilty there). It does help bring up rather weak areas and things to watch for in design work.

To quick out the gate. Likely the first 3rd party book I'll buy will be either a Tome of Horrors Pathfinder edition (as I regret missing the 3e and 3.5 books), and/or Dreamscarred's Psionics book (although I'm not exactly liking some of the extras they are adding in like getting extra PPs for the favored class).

And good, the PF Tarrasque has the correct number of feats and skill ranks, unlike the 3.5 Tarrasque which was under skilled. By something like 16 skill points if I tracked the math right. eek Spines!? And out to 600 feet!?

That is an excellent rule of thumb. The other is to not by for the cheesecake cover. All in all, not worth it (with only a few humorous exceptions). Tome of Secrets was lackluster all around. The races were not well done, the classes did not follow the Pathfinder mentality for the most part (the Warlord and Knight be almost playable exceptions), and the rest of the book was overly complicated dren that would see little to know use in most campaigns without being forced. I glad I pirated the book before I bought it, and was able to just delete it. Not worth it at all.

As for other 3rd party Pathfinder books, I didn't know there was going to be a Tome of Horrors rerelease for Pathfinder. Makes me happy, as I really like my ToH's I (never got 2, but that was more of a budget issue then anything else). Havn't heard much about this Psionics book though. Got a link to help a brother out?

As for the Tarrasque, wow! Discords name did he get a power up! No known way to kill 'em. Awesome regen. Rays, cones, and lines, as well as Magic Missile's bounce of his hide. A ranged attack (finally)! He is now, more then ever, a walking engine of the apocalypse! How delightful! I want to slap the advanced template on it, double it's HD, and base a campaign around it. But that's just becouse I'm a very, very, very cruel DM. (Am I still a DM in Pathfinder?)