D&D Guru:Answers to your D&D Questions, and general D&D Chat

[il-Lashtavar]

NIlsSyger

Seiryna

NIlsSyger

So I'm in an epic level campaign and I was wondering if the grapple feats work with telekinesis? The character idea is based of the late Dio and making him a Specialize in force and sonic spells

How exactly ARE you grappling with telekinesis anyways? also just so you know I hope your char. dies a horribly slow and very painful death, if you're serious about actually wanting to use grapple as a viable form of attack....

the spell telekinesis allows for three types of uses: sustained force, combat maneuver and violent thrust. Under combat maneuver it bluntly states you can perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip.

If you're going to complain about something make sure you know what you are talking about.

It definitely works the way you want it to, and therefore has synergy with the Reaping Mauler class and the vampire and half-vampire templates.

[Brasten]

Quote:

Combat Maneuver
Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.

People rare use it because its moderately a high level spell, and competes with things like Wall of Force and Cloud Kill for spell slots. However in Epic levels I can see it being an interesting option.

So ya, any bonus you can reasonably stack on there I'd do. However other factors like size remain an issue. So I'd throw at least enlarge person in there, maybe even a ploymorph.

[Seiryna]

Seiryna

NIlsSyger

Seiryna

NIlsSyger

So I'm in an epic level campaign and I was wondering if the grapple feats work with telekinesis? The character idea is based of the late Dio and making him a Specialize in force and sonic spells

How exactly ARE you grappling with telekinesis anyways? also just so you know I hope your char. dies a horribly slow and very painful death, if you're serious about actually wanting to use grapple as a viable form of attack....

the spell telekinesis allows for three types of uses: sustained force, combat maneuver and violent thrust. Under combat maneuver it bluntly states you can perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip.

If you're going to complain about something make sure you know what you are talking about.

It was late and I was half asleep, but anyways ok now that I am awake and actually looked up the spell, I see that you can...but why would you want to? What exactly are you trying to do? I don't really see the benefit of a grapple based spell caster.
You have to maintain concentration while grappling (tho there are ways around this).
You lose AC bonus to dex, no ways around this (that I know). I hope there are no rogues around.
Your spell casting in severely limited, tho again there are ways around this with things like still spell, but only if you also have a way around having to maintain concentration.
There's still a lot of opposed checks involved.
You have to roll opposed grapple checks to move.
You can't use it on anything two size categories larger then you. A medium creature can not grapple anything larger then Large.
nor can you grapple incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures, creatures that can go incorporeal or ethereal at will, anything that can use dimension door, teleport, ethereal jaunt (and spells like it, you CAN but then can use them to get out), or anything with freedom of movement, alternate form, or shape change (as long as it can take the shape of something two sizes larger then you) or swarms.
Sooo yeah you CAN, but why would you? Grapple has it's uses sure, but should you waste a bunch of feats on it? imo I don't think so. Especially at higher levels when you'll be running into dimension door, teleports, incorporeal, shape change, and freedom of movement a lot more.
As Brasten said there are far more interesting and imo better spells, even AT epic level to use instead of telekinesis, also it has been my experience that people who use grapple to much draw the hatred of other players, due to how much it slows down combat.
So yeah, long wall of text, but you'd had just better know what you're getting into before you do it, and waste feats in grappling.
and yes Telekinesis counts as a normal grapple, so you still do take all the penalty as if grappling normally.

Quote:

Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.

Of course your DM could say otherwise, just saying that by SRD and RAW That's how I see it being, you're merely doing a grapple at range, and thus take the appropriate penalties. (I've also asked a few other people, and they have agreed with me.) But if anyone thinks otherwise feel free to say why.

[Brasten]

Seiryna your quote nesting broken. neutral

I disagree that grapple slows down combat. It only slows things down for groups and people who don't actually use it and think it more complex then it is. My group used to grapple stuff all the time... and have grapple monster thrown at us. Never slowed us down one bit.

AoO (if applicable) -> Melee Touch -> Grapple Check -> Pass do Unarmed Strike damage -> Multiple Attacks? pick from action list.

[Seiryna]

Brasten

Seiryna your quote nesting broken. neutral

I disagree that grapple slows down combat. It only slows things down for groups and people who don't actually use it and think it more complex then it is. My group used to grapple stuff all the time... and have grapple monster thrown at us. Never slowed us down one bit.

AoO (if applicable) -> Melee Touch -> Grapple Check -> Pass do Unarmed Strike damage -> Multiple Attacks? pick from action list.

And whats the Unarmed Strike Damage on an epic level caster? 1D3 (Non-lethal, unless you take a -4 to the attack and only one attack can be made per round)
you have to maintain it every round tho, and it is a lot slower then I cast X does it die? XD
Grappling does have it's uses, but should a spell caster waste feats for it, especially at epic level?

Maybe I am just a little biased on hatting players using grapple (I have no problems with monsters using it tho.) for 2 main reasons.
1: It has very limited uses on what it can be used on, and at epic level I just don't see it being as good, as it can be at lower levels. (Do you use grapple at epic levels?)
2: I've seen WAY to many people try to make grapple their main focus, and I mean it's ALL they do.

also lets look at...
My Lv20 (non-epic paladin) Can dish out Damage looking like this~
10d8+4d6+555 if using Two Weapon Pounce
5d8+2d6+375 if only using 1 weapon

Telekinesis is a 5th level spell that you are using to deal 1D3 Non-lethal damage. (And you're taking a feat to get +4 to do this.)

IMO a much better use for Telekinesis would be disarm.
Quicken Spell -> Telekinesis -> Disarm -> Telekinesis -> Sustained Force -> drag disarmed item away.

Also, surprisingly enough I have no problems with the OPs. char idea. I just really dislike grappling and can't see why people want to use it so much.
Best use for grapple is Anti-magic field -> grapple wizard -> beat the s**t out of him. Also don't quote me on this but I THINK there is a psionic class that has a psionic grapple like ability/spell at range. Which psionics isn't affected by anti-magic, soooo yeah lol.

EDIT~
I forgot to include Epic Spell Resist when using Telekinesis
I also want to know what race (size) said char. is and what exactly you're trying to grapple at epic level?

[NIlsSyger]

the main idea was to use all the effects of telekinesis. The grapple would be to hold down and slightly move enemies into my allies to beat the s**t out of since i can hold them down at a range and they can circle him, considering one of my allies has high str.

[Brasten]

Actually using it to Pin is a evil setup for other party members. Keep in mind that grappling losses their dex bonus vs people not in the grapple. This is normally not very exploitable because of the change to hitting your ally. In this case the creature is in there solo and is a viable sneak (another nasties) target, which could actually do more then the caster on a single spell in some cases, certainly more then most 5th level spells will.

On its own, not great. Synergize it with the party... Epic Rogue multi-attack stabby stabby death time.

[il-Lashtavar]

And not to beat a dead horse, but grappling also effectively occupies your target's turn, and is only a 5th level spell in epic, where anything that isn't twinned fell-drain Fimbulwinter is lame. Only thing that's cooler is HAVING A VAMPIRE USE TELEKINESIS TO DRAIN SOMEONE'S BLOOD. That's RAW cheese for you. Admittedly less cool if you're not using it as a recurring NPC.

Also, as a general rule WotC advises that psionics not function in an antimagic field and magic not function in a null psionics zone. There also isn't a 3.x class that I know of that uses psionic grappling as a class feature--the only telekinesis-based PrC I know of is Master of the Unseen hand which is intended for slaads and ghosts, but not a lot of people recognize an NPC PrC when they see one.

[SufferingPlanet]

Brasten

This is normally not very exploitable because of the change to hitting your ally.

No more than fighting in melee. Is your fighter fighting in melee not very exploitable?

[Xerkxes]

Hi there everyone!
I'm looking for some general advice!

The Reasoning: a friend of mine is currently running an evil Campaign with another group, and while I was invited personnely I declined 'cause I inherently cannot do evil, even in a game of "make believe" I can't bring myself to do it, I'd feel... bad XP.

so, this inspired this friend of mine to make a second, follow-up campaign that involves dealing with the aftermath of the guys doing the evil campaign.

And I find, Ironically, that I picked a class for myself that is loosely, or at least I find, is an analogue to one of the classes played by the characters in the evil segment of the game.
I picked Swordsage of 3.5 Tome of battle, while the other "Evil" guy is a Pathfinder Magus.

but the reason I picked the Swordsage is for the "magic swordsman" archtype character, it's my favorite to be honest, and I thought I'd give Swordsage a try since I've tried Magus, Duskblade, attempted once at a fighter/wizard/Eldritch Knight.
and with the Desert wind Shadow hand styles, seems totally doable.

thing is though I'm not very familiar of the tome of battle classes, the last one I tried (crusader) I kept mis-interprating it's means of reading-regaining maneuvers XP but Swordsage seems to be simpler.

----

I'm not looking for cheesy or broken builds, but I would like to know what should I be looking for/into when building a swordsage?

pre-racial ability scores are
18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 8
was aiming for dex/wis/con to be the highest ability scores in that order.
Race is yet to be decided, any printed 3.x material is acceptable, as DM pretty lenient.

any suggestions?

[NIlsSyger]

First of all I recommend not using a sword sage as they can become more complicated at higher levels, especially considering you can regain everything after "exercising" after a fight and they will end up with the most maneuvers available to them at one time.

Sword sages also to better specializing in one of the "schools" of sword magic. since your styles you have mention choosing have a bit of a contradiction. Shadow hand is about being stealthy where as dessert wind is big and flashy. I Recommend changing one of them for more balance and harmony to the character.

Shadow hand and Diamond mind work well together giving your character a hide back and waiting for the time to strike. If you go with this style feats I would recommend would be anything that gives you concentration or hiding bonus. Most races will fit with this as well but I recommend human, halfling or whisper gnome (Races of stone). as For skills in this build concentration and hide are the big ones.

However if you wish to keep Dessert wind I recommend pairing it with setting sun as both are movement based characters with this pairing are found dancing across the entire battlefield and just keep moving. Dodge, mobility and Spring attack are very good feats for this style as you will just keep moving. Any race will go well with this build i have no real strong recommendations right away( I'll probably thing of some later). Tumble is your best friend in in this case.

If you are set in stone for dessert wind and shadow hand your best bet is to build your character like a ninja. Essentially hiding in the back then doing a big show to vanish again. As a warning if you are not use to rouges this can get boring fast but if you enjoy puzzles this can be fun. Feats I recommend will be the dodge feat tree again. As for races I recommend something small and fast, goblins would be good Fire Mephling (races of the planes or planar hand book) would be better (+2dex -2 int). Skills for this type of character hide and Tumble. the most important thing to keep in mind with this if your character will be starting and stopping in combat.

The most important thing to consider is you play a character as in all the game's I've played in people who play a character than a min/maxed build do better in the long run.

[Darth Moren]

Also of note is the fact that the feat Adaptive Style is pretty much a required one for any Swordsage worth his salt.

Tome of Battle

You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action.

According to CustServ (google has a whole host of references to it), this also allows you to re-ready all your maneuvers as well.

Another thing that would be handy is the Manuever Cards released by Wizards.

[Brasten]

Using CustServ as a reference is almost as bad as D&Dwiki try to find anything else before going to their ruleing.