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Eostar Dust
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Tee the Wicked
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Waitaminute here, so the users suggest gold sinks to get rid of gold, but if Gaia actually implements the gold sinks, they're doing it with the intention to pump gold back into the system?

It sounds like you have a conclusion and then look for reasons for it to be right, rather than looking at actions and coming to conclusions


Look into 133Tgate. That is the reason this tax and the gold sink "kickstarters" are, at this point, a facade.


I looked into it, but it seems like either an honest mistake or lack of communication. I don't believe that the kickstarters and the tax was done to purposefully sell gold


As I've understood it it's more that the gold that "disappears" in tax and kickstarters is nullified by the gold that admin mules pump into the system, seemingly from nowhere. it's "test" money, but they won't specify what kind of test which is why speculations range from kickstarters to "how much gold can we generate from nowhere into this account".

Either way, we have to assume that it's like a money printing press that simply shits out money into the economy whenever these mules makes a purchase in the marketplace, effectively rendering any gold sink in action completely useless.


As a developer, not for Gaia, I can tell you that they probably don't know specifically which test it was themselves. New expensive a** item on gold shop? Want to test buying it? Put some gold into the mule to test buying it. Trying to make sure that removing the Gold Cap worked? How would you do that other than give a mule more gold than said limit? Want to make sure that your code can in fact hand a trillion or quadrillion gold? Test that

The idea is that no, these mules shouldn't be buying from the market. But I highly doubt they did it maliciously, with the intent to get people to buy more gold gens as people have theorized. And I highly doubt that it's tied to the taxes and kickstarters at all. It probably went something along the lines of "Wouldn't it be cool if we could have a ticket for the next flynn?" "Sure would, why don't you get on it!" "Hm... I don't want to overburden the artists, why don't I just go to the market place and get one" and then someone much much later would have been "WTF HAVE YOU DONE?!?!"

Seriously, this whole thing was a mess, but it doesn't feel like corporate greed or corruption, it feels like good intentions gone wrong
I apologize if I'm butting in but if that is the case then why are the staff not responding to this instead of hoping it will quiet down like other incidences in the past? I'm sorry but I can't accept that. The staff know what they did and yet they aren't even man enough to come out with he truth. They sent Zero who seemed to not know either what went down. I don't trust him either anymore to be exact but I sense something beyond the "We only meant it to be good" just seems a little too convenient for their silence.

They were caught in a lie by a user who found out some interesting information and of course Gaia won't share their side of the story so we can only assume. I understand testing things and all that and I'm not even a programmer, I always have to test things I don't know before becoming fully invested but this is a bit much for testing when they SHOULD know the MP was already inflated enough, the 133tril was unnecessary. I mean seriously, they really needed to buy that ticket at 133tril? Why not ask users for help? Oh wait, that would mean talking to the community which they've lacked so much in over the past year.

So yeah I'm really skeptical about this at this point considering how Neo-Gaia has acted. Don't even get me started on the gold gens and pm invasion. Had to abandon an account because it was spammed so much.


Probably because Zero didn't know at first. From what I've heard of Gaia, communication is not one of their strong points. It seems that marketing doesn't talk to devs who don't talk to sales who don't talk to designers and frankly I'd be surprised if devs talked to other devs. Chances are Zero saw the thread at first, looked into it a little bit not expecting this whole thing and didn't see anything suspicious so he said so. When users dug up more info, he probably went and asked the rest of Gaia HQ what was going on and that was the first time he found out.

They then shared their side of the story, the users just didn't find that acceptable. And that's fair enough for the users, this was a bit of a big deal, but at this point the users aren't really upset about this thing in particular, they're upset in general, and nothing Gaia could say about this subject would have made anybody happy. There was no way for Gaia to calm people down, because people would just be pissed off regardless

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As a developer, not for Gaia, I can tell you that they probably don't know specifically which test it was themselves. New expensive a** item on gold shop? Want to test buying it? Put some gold into the mule to test buying it. Trying to make sure that removing the Gold Cap worked? How would you do that other than give a mule more gold than said limit? Want to make sure that your code can in fact hand a trillion or quadrillion gold? Test that

The idea is that no, these mules shouldn't be buying from the market. But I highly doubt they did it maliciously, with the intent to get people to buy more gold gens as people have theorized.


Which would make sense if this happened only once, and the situation was quickly reversed.133TGate involves multiple cases where trillions have been used to buy expensive items. How does the same "accident" happen several times? In addition, there are a couple of other issues and questions which makes that implausible:

1. Among the the mules harboring all this gold were for mules of artists. Your explanation would be more feasible if this were strictly devs with the excess gold. MC has shown very well these mules didn't originally have the gold and devs came forward to say the gold that artist used was indeed unearned. If the hired devs need to test the site, then why is someone being hired for art be needed (their mule at that) when the devs can make a test mule of their own? I've also been told they have a separate site to conduct these tests. So again, why?

2. Why if the "test" regarding gold needed interaction with the MP, did they several times choose highly expensive items items when they could pluck off the market cheap 1g items that would not have any significant impact to the economy if an accident were to happen? "Oops I sunk a trillion into the economy, lets just accidentally do it again several times?" That just doesn't sound quite right.



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And I highly doubt that it's tied to the taxes and kickstarters at all.


As it pertains to taxes, it doesn't matter. The reality is either way it unfairly takes money from the users and it is unfair because their taken earnings are dumped back into the system anyway. It only achieves to cut the majority's buying power to benefit a minority. Often this minority are staff or users who had the ability to invest in rare items early.

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The MP tax is like one of the last gold sinks to worry about. The increase tax was needed and I have been requesting it to be 5% for several months even prior to Flynn's Booty. AIing happens regardless of tax and staff manipulating the market makes the prices of items go even higher through inputting gold by various methods. But anyway, I find it funny how similar Gaia and real life economies are now. But yeah I understand why people are upset with the tax. It's like getting mad at the IRS for decisions congress makes. The MP tax is the best performing gold sinks and even when the the altered GGs first came out, the output and input of gold was actually balancing out to start showing a decrease in prices. If the 133T and the decisions over the past year don't prove that Gaia does not want to fix inflation, I don't know what else will. Gaia is liking inflation because they are doing really well with GC sales lately, so I doubt it will stop anytime soon. CEO has quite a financial record of earning capital in the past and I doubt he'll stop that trend with Gaia Interactive no matter how upset the community gets or how many members leave until Gaia stops making money and quotas. Anyway there are plenty of sources on Gaia on how inflation works and knowing basic economics myself, tax is the least of your worries. But quite funny knowing that Gaia has less tax than MMO games I've played but high cash shop prices than the MMOs. Quite funny that the MP graph shows numbers in the 133T area again. I am amused by the numbers but I've been buying from gold shops and been quite happy purchasing fixed numbers rather than from a broken economy. I treat MP as a broken feature not to be touched now. But at least I'm able to sell some zOMG! loot if I want anything from Loyal's Bazaar even though some of those prices are laughable too.

Basically I requested a tax increase. Gaia surprising listened finally about it. I also asked for something similar to GoFusion as well to help with inflation. I also took a site poll prior to making the suggestion again and poll supported the 5% flat tax rate over the 3% tax and variable taxes.

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The MP tax is like one of the last gold sinks to worry about. The increase tax was needed and I have been requesting it to be 5% for several months even prior to Flynn's Booty.


Again, I never said taxes are inherently bad for the site. My point is the tax is not doing anything but reducing buying power of Gaians. The money is being dumped back in due to kickstarters not removing a large portion of it and the newly created gold ("user event" kickstarters) and the staff's ability to manipulate the market. If they want perpetual inflation they will get it. The tax is just a facade to make people think they're doing something when in effect the market's being tampered with to make the inflation continue either way. If they're going to do that to coerce GC purchases, I'd say it's better for the inflation to be at the hands of thousands of users getting thousands of items due to tax reductions than it is for 1 or 2 users dumping hundreds of trillions for a couple items.



Quote:
Basically I requested a tax increase. Gaia surprising listened finally about it. I also asked for something similar to GoFusion as well to help with inflation. I also took a site poll prior to making the suggestion again and poll supported the 5% flat tax rate over the 3% tax and variable taxes.


Unfortunately, no one knew at the time the futility of it, because people didn't know that staff were dumping trillions back into the economy. There was more reason to feel that the tax may potentially do something because there was no evidence of staff market manipulation. Again taxes aren't bad, but if inflation is what they want and they're going to make it inflated then taxes serve no purpose.

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Seriously, this whole thing was a mess, but it doesn't feel like corporate greed or corruption, it feels like good intentions gone wrong

Sure, I might be able to buy "good intentions gone wrong" the problem with this is that Gaia has been bombarded for the past year with users begging them to quit pumping gold into the economy. Where in their thought processes did they think that it was fine to use "test gold"?? Like we wouldnt notice or care.... It wasn't purchased, it wasn't earned, it was GENERATED, and like you suggested, probably up to the quintillions to test the cap, ridiculous. That would probably total all the gold all Gaia users have put together, thats not okay to use it. All around I think the intentions behind it reflect the general opinion of staff concerning how much gold is actually in circulation. Either they don't give any F's about inflation and intend it to be this way, OR 12 year olds really are running the site like several of us have come to believe.

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Seriously, this whole thing was a mess, but it doesn't feel like corporate greed or corruption, it feels like good intentions gone wrong

Sure, I might be able to buy "good intentions gone wrong" the problem with this is that Gaia has been bombarded for the past year with users begging them to quit pumping gold into the economy. Where in their thought processes did they think that it was fine to use "test gold"?? Like we wouldnt notice or care.... It wasn't purchased, it wasn't earned, it was GENERATED, and like you suggested, probably up to the quintillions to test the cap, ridiculous. That would probably total all the gold all Gaia users have put together, thats not okay to use it. All around I think the intentions behind it reflect the general opinion of staff concerning how much gold is actually in circulation. Either they don't give any F's about inflation and intend it to be this way, OR 12 year olds really are running the site like several of us have come to believe.


Not only that but the artist lied about it being legit gold. They knew no one would've been happy with generated "test gold" why else then couldn't they say they made gold that didn't previously exist to purchase it because they're staff and simply...could.

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Seriously, this whole thing was a mess, but it doesn't feel like corporate greed or corruption, it feels like good intentions gone wrong

Sure, I might be able to buy "good intentions gone wrong" the problem with this is that Gaia has been bombarded for the past year with users begging them to quit pumping gold into the economy. Where in their thought processes did they think that it was fine to use "test gold"?? Like we wouldnt notice or care.... It wasn't purchased, it wasn't earned, it was GENERATED, and like you suggested, probably up to the quintillions to test the cap, ridiculous. That would probably total all the gold all Gaia users have put together, thats not okay to use it. All around I think the intentions behind it reflect the general opinion of staff concerning how much gold is actually in circulation. Either they don't give any F's about inflation and intend it to be this way, OR 12 year olds really are running the site like several of us have come to believe.


Not only that but the artist lied about it being legit gold. They knew no one would've been happy with generated "test gold" why else then couldn't they say they made gold that didn't previously exist to purchase it because they're staff and simply...could.
ah yes, we cannot forget about the deception. That in itself pretty much supports the idea that they don't care and want it this way. Or it supports the 12 year old theory, where the whole "we hate gold gens / inflation" didn't even enter their minds when they decided to handle it this way. But whatever, they lied. They could be lying about where the gold actually came from, Flyyns Plunder, Kick starters, MP taxes, Gold Shops, we will never know really. The whole mess just thoroughly instills doubt at a every angle and diminishes what little bits of trust some of us had. Gaia lies, Gaia backstabs, Gaia goes back on their word, what's new? Nothing would surprise me at this point. Maybe staff mules were AIing items, Inflating them since the beginning, gifting users gold gens anonymously to get them addicted.... Its all just slimy and totally plausible given their new standards of site management.

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Scobre
The MP tax is like one of the last gold sinks to worry about. The increase tax was needed and I have been requesting it to be 5% for several months even prior to Flynn's Booty.


Again, I never said taxes are inherently bad for the site. My point is the tax is not doing anything but reducing buying power of Gaians. The money is being dumped back in due to kickstarters not removing a large portion of it and the newly created gold ("user event" kickstarters) and the staff's ability to manipulate the market. If they want perpetual inflation they will get it. The tax is just a facade to make people think they're doing something when in effect the market's being tampered with to make the inflation continue either way. If they're going to do that to coerce GC purchases, I'd say it's better for the inflation to be at the hands of thousands of users getting thousands of items due to tax reductions than it is for 1 or 2 users dumping hundreds of trillions for a couple items.



Quote:
Basically I requested a tax increase. Gaia surprising listened finally about it. I also asked for something similar to GoFusion as well to help with inflation. I also took a site poll prior to making the suggestion again and poll supported the 5% flat tax rate over the 3% tax and variable taxes.


Unfortunately, no one knew at the time the futility of it, because people didn't know that staff were dumping trillions back into the economy. There was more reason to feel that the tax may potentially do something because there was no evidence of staff market manipulation. Again taxes aren't bad, but if inflation is what they want and they're going to make it inflated then taxes serve no purpose.

I guess that could be said about all gold sinks. Yeah the output of gold will never be enough because Gaia wants inflation right now. Whether there is a tax or not, prices will still be inflated due to gold generators and Gaia staff manipulating the marketplace and buying items at AIed prices. Taxes just provide like a little band aid. Like prices would have been a lot worst by now without it. Anyway here is a cute little comic to explain it better: Coco and Kiki explain the economy Increasing the gold cap also made prices skyrocket, but no one listened to me about that because some vendors wanted to be able to sell items for higher prices and used having to transfer gold to their mules as an excuse. Some but not all vendors also said as long as Gaians continue to buy gold generators, they will continue to raise prices. So as more gold is introduced anyone is able to make an easy vend just holding on an item for a week or so and selling. Honestly it's sad how easily you can sell gold shop and game items now at insane prices. I think the wife of Gaia's old economist said inflation will always be around. There is no real solution to inflation both in a virtual economy and a real one because even the top economists are using an outdated system that doesn't work with how businesses perform now. Now if you want a more in depth detail of what cause inflation in a real economy: Forbes article Some journal entries made by former Gaia staff: Panagrammic's Journal and Sagger-AT3

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Probably because Zero didn't know at first. From what I've heard of Gaia, communication is not one of their strong points. It seems that marketing doesn't talk to devs who don't talk to sales who don't talk to designers and frankly I'd be surprised if devs talked to other devs. Chances are Zero saw the thread at first, looked into it a little bit not expecting this whole thing and didn't see anything suspicious so he said so. When users dug up more info, he probably went and asked the rest of Gaia HQ what was going on and that was the first time he found out.

They then shared their side of the story, the users just didn't find that acceptable. And that's fair enough for the users, this was a bit of a big deal, but at this point the users aren't really upset about this thing in particular, they're upset in general, and nothing Gaia could say about this subject would have made anybody happy. There was no way for Gaia to calm people down, because people would just be pissed off regardless

It's impossible for Zero to have not known. He also took part in lying about the nature of the transaction. He claimed to have investigated the situation and determined that the transactions were legit early into the scandal. If moderators and admins have tools to determine fishy gold, how could he have not noticed that the trillions were poofed from nowhere or that the mule was not staff? How do you not find hundreds of trillions of gold suddenly dropped from an account not fishy with tools perfectly able to see where the account got the gold whether from records of how the account generated gold or the account's trade history? neutral Transactions like that normally have everyone involved's trading passes frozen so they can figure out what happened, but right away the transactions were deemed legitimate.

Keep in mind only last month they were able to determine that a user was abusing a glitch in the Cash Shop gifting to generate their own items.
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