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Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

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mrsculedhel
Lord Setar
mrsculedhel
Fighting Fefnir
Didn't the Catholic church go out of its way to support the Nazi party up until it started killing them?


No. They Catholic Church would be the Vatican as well as the people of Europe during WWII in this case.

No, it wouldn't, since we're talking about what amounts to international relations. The parties in this case are the respective establishments: "Germany" would in this case refer to the German government and "The Catholic Church" would refer to the Vatican establishment since those are the parties that are in direct contact with one another.

Of course, since your objective is to not be accurate but instead to make the RCC look good, it's not surprising that you'd attempt to say that the RCC's lay base somehow are relevant to the RCC's foreign affairs policy and conduct.


Whose scholarship are you citing, Lord Setar?

...seriously? Countries aren't represented by their governments on the international stage? Since when?

mrsculedhel
To clarify, my objective is to defend the Church. Whether it "looks good" to others or not is truly not my objective. Sometimes no defense is possible, only a means of understanding how it was that things went down at the time.

And in this case no defense is possible unless you try to say that the RCC somehow does foreign relations differently from every other country, which requires claiming that the RCC's foreign affairs are handled by some entity other than the Vatican.

Perfect Winner

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mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

...I'm fairly sure that, by your definition of 'extremist atheists' and the criteria you just gave, there are very few, if any, extremist atheists.

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Lord Setar
Now, granted, you haven't even defined "extremist atheism", but I have this funny feeling that if I ask you to do so you will dance around the question for the simple reason that atheism has no unified set of beliefs other than "I do not believe that there is a god" and you thusly can't really call anything "extremist atheism" other than...well, really, claiming as fact "There is no god" and suppressing anyone who claims that there is a god.


If you feel this way then please do not bother debating me. I do not believe in suppressing anyone who claims there is no God. Not at all. Laws on the books which rportage has pointed out to me recently that prevent atheists from being Notary's or holding office need to be repealed.

Forcing people to believe or to pretend to believe something which they do not believe is immoral. That is my stance. I know my Popes and I therefore I do assure you that my view is also the view of Pope JP, II and Papa Bene.

Did you want to cite your scholarship on the previous claims that the Catholic Church supported National Socialism?

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Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

...I'm fairly sure that, by your definition of 'extremist atheists' and the criteria you just gave, there are very few, if any, extremist atheists.


I agree.

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mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

Then it will be disregarded, considering:

1. Hitler did not attempt to suppress Christianity as claimed by Benedict in the part of his speech that you are attempting to sweep under the rug.

2. Stalin and Mao were concerned with upholding their particular brand of communism and suppressed dissidents regardless of religion. Where Stalin is concerned, he re-established the Russian Orthodox Church in 1942 which means you have no argument as he embraced Christianity rather than suppressing it. I am not as familiar with Mao's policies, however, I have never heard anything about attempts at suppressing religion by Mao.

Offline
Lord Setar
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar
mrsculedhel
Fighting Fefnir
Didn't the Catholic church go out of its way to support the Nazi party up until it started killing them?


No. They Catholic Church would be the Vatican as well as the people of Europe during WWII in this case.

No, it wouldn't, since we're talking about what amounts to international relations. The parties in this case are the respective establishments: "Germany" would in this case refer to the German government and "The Catholic Church" would refer to the Vatican establishment since those are the parties that are in direct contact with one another.

Of course, since your objective is to not be accurate but instead to make the RCC look good, it's not surprising that you'd attempt to say that the RCC's lay base somehow are relevant to the RCC's foreign affairs policy and conduct.


Whose scholarship are you citing, Lord Setar?

...seriously? Countries aren't represented by their governments on the international stage? Since when?

mrsculedhel
To clarify, my objective is to defend the Church. Whether it "looks good" to others or not is truly not my objective. Sometimes no defense is possible, only a means of understanding how it was that things went down at the time.

And in this case no defense is possible unless you try to say that the RCC somehow does foreign relations differently from every other country, which requires claiming that the RCC's foreign affairs are handled by some entity other than the Vatican.


1. Debators who seem to be heavy handed and deliberately rude are difficult for me to cope with. Please be gentle.

2. The statements you are making don't make sense to me because I simply do not know what you are talking about.

3. Why won't you name the scholar who has hipped you to all this about Vatican State affairs, whatever those might be? Would you also explain those to me because I don't know.

Perfect Winner

Offline
mrsculedhel
Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

...I'm fairly sure that, by your definition of 'extremist atheists' and the criteria you just gave, there are very few, if any, extremist atheists.


I agree.

Then I don't understand why you're addressing a group of people that by all means doesn't exist, and I question why Benedict has chosen to do so as well.

Offline
Lord Setar
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

Then it will be disregarded, considering:

1. Hitler did not attempt to suppress Christianity as claimed by Benedict in the part of his speech that you are attempting to sweep under the rug.

2. Stalin and Mao were concerned with upholding their particular brand of communism and suppressed dissidents regardless of religion. Where Stalin is concerned, he re-established the Russian Orthodox Church in 1942 which means you have no argument as he embraced Christianity rather than suppressing it. I am not as familiar with Mao's policies, however, I have never heard anything about attempts at suppressing religion by Mao.


You are mistaken that I am sweeping his statements under the rug. I have every intention to promulgate his words.

You are naive in regards to the reestablishment of Roman Catholicism in Poland and Russian Orthodoxy in Russia as being anything more than a means to pacify the people once they were subdued.


As you are not familiar with Chairman Mao, would you be willing to acknowledge that you might not know everything about what Pope Benedict meant when he spoke?

Would you please source your information regarding the Vatican foreign policy which tips a hand of Nazism there?

Offline
Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

...I'm fairly sure that, by your definition of 'extremist atheists' and the criteria you just gave, there are very few, if any, extremist atheists.


I agree.

Then I don't understand why you're addressing a group of people that by all means doesn't exist, and I question why Benedict has chosen to do so as well.


"Very few" is common sense. There are very few members of the Skin Heads, KKK and other such extremists. Why we have at times listened to those voices and made way for their moments in history has to do with our own internal struggles with selfishness and scapegoating; our fears that we won't have enough and someone unworthy is going to "get ours."

Perfect Winner

Offline
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

Then it will be disregarded, considering:

1. Hitler did not attempt to suppress Christianity as claimed by Benedict in the part of his speech that you are attempting to sweep under the rug.

2. Stalin and Mao were concerned with upholding their particular brand of communism and suppressed dissidents regardless of religion. Where Stalin is concerned, he re-established the Russian Orthodox Church in 1942 which means you have no argument as he embraced Christianity rather than suppressing it. I am not as familiar with Mao's policies, however, I have never heard anything about attempts at suppressing religion by Mao.


You are mistaken that I am sweeping his statements under the rug. I have every intention to promulgate his words.

You are naive in regards to the reestablishment of Roman Catholicism in Poland and Russian Orthodoxy in Russia as being anything more than a means to pacify the people once they were subdued.


As you are not familiar with Chairman Mao, would you be willing to acknowledge that you might not know everything about what Pope Benedict meant when he spoke?

Would you please source your information regarding the Vatican foreign policy which tips a hand of Nazism there?

I'll fill in the blank there. The Reichskonkordat was a document signed between the Vatican and Nazi Germany in order to continue the Church's activities in Germany. With this preferential treatment, they chose to accept the regime rather than to attempt to change or remove it. One of the signers from the Catholic side is even alleged to have said 'with the treaty, we are hanged. Without it, we are hanged, drawn, and quartered'. It's showing a complete lack of effort to go against policies the Church did not agree with. Also notable, many clergy had access to knowledge about what was happening in the concentration camps even a month after they began being filled, but were not vocal about such things.

Perfect Winner

Offline
mrsculedhel
Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

...I'm fairly sure that, by your definition of 'extremist atheists' and the criteria you just gave, there are very few, if any, extremist atheists.


I agree.

Then I don't understand why you're addressing a group of people that by all means doesn't exist, and I question why Benedict has chosen to do so as well.


"Very few" is common sense. There are very few members of the Skin Heads, KKK and other such extremists. Why we have at times listened to those voices and made way for their moments in history has to do with our own internal struggles with selfishness and scapegoating; our fears that we won't have enough and someone unworthy is going to "get ours."

You didn't answer me, you went on a philosophical meandering.

Offline
Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

Then it will be disregarded, considering:

1. Hitler did not attempt to suppress Christianity as claimed by Benedict in the part of his speech that you are attempting to sweep under the rug.

2. Stalin and Mao were concerned with upholding their particular brand of communism and suppressed dissidents regardless of religion. Where Stalin is concerned, he re-established the Russian Orthodox Church in 1942 which means you have no argument as he embraced Christianity rather than suppressing it. I am not as familiar with Mao's policies, however, I have never heard anything about attempts at suppressing religion by Mao.


You are mistaken that I am sweeping his statements under the rug. I have every intention to promulgate his words.

You are naive in regards to the reestablishment of Roman Catholicism in Poland and Russian Orthodoxy in Russia as being anything more than a means to pacify the people once they were subdued.


As you are not familiar with Chairman Mao, would you be willing to acknowledge that you might not know everything about what Pope Benedict meant when he spoke?

Would you please source your information regarding the Vatican foreign policy which tips a hand of Nazism there?

I'll fill in the blank there. The Reichskonkordat was a document signed between the Vatican and Nazi Germany in order to continue the Church's activities in Germany. With this preferential treatment, they chose to accept the regime rather than to attempt to change or remove it. One of the signers from the Catholic side is even alleged to have said 'with the treaty, we are hanged. Without it, we are hanged, drawn, and quartered'. It's showing a complete lack of effort to go against policies the Church did not agree with. Also notable, many clergy had access to knowledge about what was happening in the concentration camps even a month after they began being filled, but were not vocal about such things.


Will you now source the scholar who has provided you with these intrigues?

Offline
Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Fighting Fefnir

...I'm fairly sure that, by your definition of 'extremist atheists' and the criteria you just gave, there are very few, if any, extremist atheists.


I agree.

Then I don't understand why you're addressing a group of people that by all means doesn't exist, and I question why Benedict has chosen to do so as well.


"Very few" is common sense. There are very few members of the Skin Heads, KKK and other such extremists. Why we have at times listened to those voices and made way for their moments in history has to do with our own internal struggles with selfishness and scapegoating; our fears that we won't have enough and someone unworthy is going to "get ours."

You didn't answer me, you went on a philosophical meandering.


Very few does not equal "doesn't exist." The set of [very few] is not he same as the set of [ ]

Perfect Winner

Offline
mrsculedhel
Fighting Fefnir
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar
mrsculedhel
Lord Setar

You have yet to establish that the genocides were the result of "extremist atheism" in the first place =/


This is the Pope's view and also mine. Feel free to disregard it. My discussion here is to explain what Papa Bene meant, not to defend his experiences to you. Atheists are not targeted, only extremist atheism. If you don't go calling for the killing of the "unfit" and "useless eaters" then you are not under discussion.

Then it will be disregarded, considering:

1. Hitler did not attempt to suppress Christianity as claimed by Benedict in the part of his speech that you are attempting to sweep under the rug.

2. Stalin and Mao were concerned with upholding their particular brand of communism and suppressed dissidents regardless of religion. Where Stalin is concerned, he re-established the Russian Orthodox Church in 1942 which means you have no argument as he embraced Christianity rather than suppressing it. I am not as familiar with Mao's policies, however, I have never heard anything about attempts at suppressing religion by Mao.


You are mistaken that I am sweeping his statements under the rug. I have every intention to promulgate his words.

You are naive in regards to the reestablishment of Roman Catholicism in Poland and Russian Orthodoxy in Russia as being anything more than a means to pacify the people once they were subdued.


As you are not familiar with Chairman Mao, would you be willing to acknowledge that you might not know everything about what Pope Benedict meant when he spoke?

Would you please source your information regarding the Vatican foreign policy which tips a hand of Nazism there?

I'll fill in the blank there. The Reichskonkordat was a document signed between the Vatican and Nazi Germany in order to continue the Church's activities in Germany. With this preferential treatment, they chose to accept the regime rather than to attempt to change or remove it. One of the signers from the Catholic side is even alleged to have said 'with the treaty, we are hanged. Without it, we are hanged, drawn, and quartered'. It's showing a complete lack of effort to go against policies the Church did not agree with. Also notable, many clergy had access to knowledge about what was happening in the concentration camps even a month after they began being filled, but were not vocal about such things.


Will you now source the scholar who has provided you with these intrigues?

http://www.concordatwatch.eu/showkb.php?org_id=858&kb_header_id=752&kb_id=1211

I read the concordat.
Gaia Forums » MISC Forums » Forum & Sticky Archive » Morality and Religion

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