sinistersquid
No one is going to admit that you are 'right,' because for that to happen you would actually have to be right. I will spell this out for you in the least confusing manner possible:
The
only comic that was hard to understand was Sexism--just because you have an idea does not mean that you will easily get that idea across. In this particular comic's case,
your art is a hindrance to your intent, because
your art does not get the message across.
Anyhow, I like you're trying to appeal to the rest of us like you're not the 'average' gaia user and that the rest of us are obsessed with cutsey BL/yaoi manga and therefore aren't allowed to have opinions on your comic because they are not suited to our tastes, which means that we will automatically hate them. Obviously you don't post on this forum much, because if you did, you'd know that the regulars are usually all over anything that *isn't* cutsey, manga yaoi or BL, because it's all we ever see in here.
They are reacting badly to your work because, regardless of your intent, you are coming off as an ungrateful, pig-headed moron who is ignoring helpful advice given to you by people who know their s**t.
Was that a bit easier to get?
I've been very respectful to other people's tastes, aside from SSJ Girl, but I already apologized for that.
"Ungrateful, pig-headed moron"... I think that suits CatBrush better than me, or anyone else who refuses to acknowledge that this is something I do in my spare time to amuse others with no personal gain. That's like slapping the coins out of a donor's hands and saying "You call that charity? NOT GOOD ENOUGH!"
I am listening to all critique, and I'm considering making changes based on what I might find valid. I think an average person would not have a hard time understanding that the woman just slapped the man because here's what they know...
-There is a woman and a man
-The man said a comment that would be sexist in any other context
-A speech bubble saying "Pig!" was shown, and not coming from the man
-"Pig!", or "Sexist pig!", is a common response to sexist males
-The man had a red handprint on his face
-There was a flesh-coloured object in motion
-The man's head was going in the same direction as the object in motion
Some people find my comic funny, and it is therefore not unfunny. True or false?
If you answered "true", that's all I wanted you to agree with. It's not that "I'm right and you're wrong" - it's that we've come to an agreement that yes, my comics are funny to some people. That's simply a fact; your personal tastes can't account for everyone else's, especially when other people specifically say that they do like the comic (or some of the comics). It's futile to disagree because the praise from those other people already proved the point.
Does that mean you have to agree with everything? No, you can still say that my art needs work, you can say the delivery could be better, you can say pretty much anything. You just can't say that the comics are not funny in any way possible. Can you say "I personally didn't find any of the comics funny"? Yes, you certainly can.
I'm really not your average Gaia user. I'm very on/off, and this was my first time posting since... Well, I made one post in February and vanished, one post in October 2008 to compliment the Lupin III reference in the NPC costumes, a few posts in September 2008, and then May 2008 was the last time I was actually sorta active. Does that mean I think I'm better than the rest of you? No. I was just sarcastically saying that Gaians would prefer stuff with gays/bisexuals/weeaboo stuff/etc. And if they do, so what? There's nothing wrong with being interested in those kinds of things. The only thing it means is that this comic does not suit their personal tastes, which I'm completely fine with.
Anyhow, if you think that only that one comic is hard to understand, then I don't think it's a very big deal. Understanding 76/77 isn't that bad. Some people will get some comics, some people won't. If the rest of my comics can be understood easily, then I guess I've already improved myself in the necessary ways, so the critique for "Sexism" would just be unnecessary.
Of course, that's not to say I'm perfect. There's always room for improvement. I'm just saying that your post indicates that I've already solved the problem that was in "Sexism".
Meowhead
I thought this'd work a whole lot better if I cut down your post to the important parts.
Zantetsken
I'd appreciate if you stayed true to your earlier claim of being neutral.
... and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop calling me an idiot. It looks like we both lose, huh?
Zantetsken
I didn't try to trick anyone by using the word "slow" instead of "idiot". I made the change (and explained it) because you people take everything way too literally. It's obvious that I'm not getting my point across with the word "idiot", so I used a different, less insulting word with the same meaning (or same intended meaning).
I'm afraid you misunderstood me here. My advice was not 'Do not use the word idiot, please pick a synonym', or 'do not use the word idiot, pick a synonym that has slightly less negative connotations'. I wasn't even saying 'Do not use the word idiot, because I want to protect Sayterra', 'Do not use the word idiot because it is not deserved' or 'Do not use the word idiot because it hurts my feelings and I cry myself to sleep at night while wondering why Zantetsken doesn't like me.'.
Nobody is hurt by you using the word idiot (Stupid, moron, slow, retarded, feebleminded, simple, mentally handicapped, less than swift), other than yourself. It does not advance your argument, it makes you seem immature. There is no benefit to constantly denigrating other people's intelligence, even if you were right. I was trying to help you here, by giving you advice that would allow you to present yourself in a more flattering fashion.
You apparently missed the point to what I was trying to tell you. I am telling you to stop calling people idiots. Period.
Zantetsken
Please, go ahead. Pick any comic(s) aside from the ones I mentioned and tell me how they're confusing.
I keep bringing up the "Sexism" comic, but I'm not getting any answers. Did you personally have a hard time understanding that the woman slapped the man even though it's so heavily implied? Please don't become biased like CatBrush - I want your honest input, though you probably won't admit it because it looks like you want this "snotty high horse Zantetsken jerk" to be wrong. You don't have to post your answer if you don't want to, but at least be honest with yourself. Did you understand the following?
Panel 1: Man is leaning against door for unknown reason
Panel 2: Man appears sexist by ordering woman to return to kitchen
Panel 3: Woman slaps man for seeming to be sexist
Panel 4: There are zombies outside
Nobody claimed your comics were completely unintelligible until you started insulting people left and right. Sayterra said you were incoherent - lacking cohesion, connection or harmony. Your paneling, layout and art are less than optimal. If you believe they are optimal, you are severely deluded, but you have already said you know you're not perfect.
I don't think they're quite as bad as Sayterra does, but she's considerably more professional than me, so is holding you to higher standards.
Zantetsken
If the comics don't make sense, I'll glady accept it, and I might even change them or be able to improve in the future, but you people aren't explaining HOW they're confusing (most of you don't find the confusing, anyways, just not suiting your tastes in humour). Tell me what you don't understand - that's the only thing that can possibly help me.
Here you are, condescending again, suggesting I don't understand. I understand your comic, I just don't think it was amazing. If you hadn't been using such a heavy handed, obvious joke, your paneling here wouldn't have been able to convey it. Actually, some of your later comics are better drawn, and/or do a better job of showing what's going on, but this was the first comic you showed, so is what people assumed was the best representation of your work.
Zantetsken
"Odd numbers work better for comedy" does not make sense. "I can't tell that the woman just slapped the man because you don't see the hand connect to the face" is just nitpicking. "Stick people are better than your shitty art" is just bias. This kind of critique is stupid and unhelpful.
The human brain actually seems to prefer odd numbers, 'strue. It's one of the basic concepts for layout and design. You've never heard of the rule of thirds? A lot (Not all) of the comics that use four panels use the beat panel. 'Setup' 'setup' pause' 'punchline' You generally seem to use 'setup' 'setup' 'setup', in which case five panels wouldn't be a bad choice, because you can use 'setup setup setup beat punchline'. Also, it's more aesthetically pleasing to have the page broken up in more ways than a straight 4 panel up/down layout.
I'm mostly just guessing here, since I don't want to do gag comics, and it isn't my area of expertise, but since you've annoyed and driven away all the better critics by doing the 'you are an idiot' dance whenever they say anything, you'll have to settle for my guesses at where they were going with it.
Zantetsken
If you really think Sayterra's advice about "odd numbers" is valid and useful even without any kind of explanation or logic... Well, I better not use the "s word" because you'll get offended and then disregard any logic or valid points I may have made. Really, it's just childish to get that upset over such a mild "insult" and then resort to denying facts and calling my work complete and utter trash.
The childishness enters the moment you whip out your 'idiot' card. Even if you had perfectly valid arguments, and your logic was the sort of airtight, brilliant reasoning that would give Socrates wet dreams of envy, the moment you start insulting people you lose a lot of your credibility.
You call them names, they call you names back, and it all goes crawling into the sludge pits of name calling. That's why I recommended you take the high road. You apparently don't understand that concept either, so I'll explain to you exactly what is involved. That does not mean 'Ignore people when they talk to you' or 'let yourself be butthurt.' (A word you use a lot that sort of annoys me as a word, but I digress). What it means is 'When somebody gives you a critique, if you disagree with it, you tell them VERY POLITELY that you disagree, and if you don't understand it, you explain that you don't understand and you would like further details.'.
If they insult you, you respond in a polite, reasoned fashioned, and demonstrate your superior maturity, and eventually get a huge fan base of people who think that you're really cool when you're not telling everybody '... and you're stupid'.
Zantetsken
I wasn't trying to say anything like that, I was just stereotyping Gaians as people who are obsessed with furries, bisexuals, gays, and anime/manga. I was sarcastically saying that your average Gaian will reject anything that doesn't have to do with such things.
I just thought this was a really important part of one of your earlier posts. In your attempt to justify your oppression, you start lashing out against Gaians in general, and random portions of the population... suggesting that they're incapable of enjoying your stuff. (Though I'm pretty sure Baron Catbrush would count that as a point in their favor, and therefore not an insult as all)
Something that fascinates me is that out of all the people here, you have the most weeaboo name. A look at your profile reveals weeaboo tendencies... even your art looks like you're heavily anime/manga inspired. Yet you feel like insulting the anime/manga crowd anyway, which suggests to me there is some sort of selfloathing thing going on here.
This of course leads one to the unpleasant mental image that in between bouts of watching Naruto, you share sloppy Pocky-kisses with your fellow fursuited person of indiscriminate gender.
Not that I'm saying you DO, but just... man, lay off the insults, it's making it hard for me to be nice.
biggrin
I didn't call you an idiot, I said
If you really think Sayterra's advice about "odd numbers" is valid and useful even without any kind of explanation or logic... Well, I better not use the "s word". You were using if statements in your post, as well; it's not like you were saying those things as facts, but just "if so and so, then yes, this and that are true". I've been saying "if" this entire time.
I think it's evident that everybody here is very hurt by the fact that I've been calling them idiots. They ignore perfectly valid logic and facts just because I called them so. For example, when I proved that some people do find my comics funny. Does that prove my comics are genius and that you have to have some intelligence to find them funny? No. Does that prove that EVERYONE should find my comics funny? No. I was never trying to prove anything like that because it's simply impossible - those statements are clearly false.
My comics are funny to some people, and said people are not ADD retards for liking my comic. That is a fact, whether I'm a jerk or not and whether you people admit it or not.
Indeed, there's no real benefit in calling them biased, stupid, holier-than-thou, etc. All it does is upset their simple minds because my logical posts are instantly turned into nothing but personal attacks just because I slipped in one word that they didn't agree with. As I said earlier, you don't have to agree with everything I say to admit that I might be right about something (e.g. the fact that my comics are funny to some people). They never provide valid arguments/explanations/etc. to respond to what I have to say, so words like biased and idiot are really the only thing to say in return, because they're true. In case anyone isn't aware, to be biased is to lean to one side, to not be neutral, to unfairly try to get a certain result instead of the other. Yes, you people are biased because you cannot acknowledge the fact that some people like my comic. When I say "you people" or "you", I'm not necessarily referring to the person I'm responding to; that's aimed at any Gaian that it applies to. If it doesn't apply to you, then no, you aren't biased. Same goes for the idiot comments.
I wasn't saying that you personally don't understand my comic, but that's the side of the argument that you're supporting. If someone doesn't understand something in my comics, I'd appreciate if they let it be known rather than ride on Sayterra's critique of "Sexism", because that really doesn't speak for all of my comics. That was one of my reasons for calling Sayterra's intelligence into question. Not because I was randomly insulting her, but because she was judging all of my comics based on one. If you played a sports game on a PS3, Wii, and Xbox 360 and didn't like the sports game, would you say that all video games are boring? Would you agree that someone who judges EVERYTHING based on one small sample is being very close-minded, unfair, snobby... maybe stupid? Really, you can't judge RPGs, adventure, action, first person shooters, etc. based on one sports game you played. My comics are the same (though obviously not as broad in variety as "all video game genres" ); you can't judge all of them based on "Sexism" because they do have different artstyles and humour.
You can keep arguing for the "they don't make sense" side if you want, but we can see that simply talking things over isn't working out too well. I did prove how some more samples made sense, but you guys ignored that. If you want me to believe that they don't make sense, please show me a comic and prove it, but don't nitpick and say "it isn't clear that he's jumping off of a bridge because I can't see the bottom of the bridge or the bridge's structure as a whole".
I made it clear that the "Sexism" comic is one of my older ones. It's #17 out of #77, and it was made in May 2008, and it is presently March 2009. If they can't figure that out for themselves, then I can put a more recent comic in the first post. I didn't think it was necessary to insult their intelligence like that, though (i.e. assuming they can't figure something like that out).
I don't see how the mild insults (which are always explained and backed up) can make my posts any less credible. What's true is true, what's false is false. My use of the word "idiot" does not change that. It just offends some people that I would set up a hypothetical situation where they might be considered an idiot.
At least you're attempting to explain the "odd numbers" thing now, and I appreciate that it will no longer look like it's just a groundless statement. The rule of thirds doesn't really apply to this situation, aside from showing one situation where odd numbers are considered better. I could probably find something that makes even numbers look more appealing. For example, in math, many people prefer even numbers because they're easier to divide.
I agree that different panel styles/setups work better with some comics. By continuing to use the four panel layout, I'm really limiting myself. Sometimes the joke simply isn't long enough to last four panels, so I might have to throw in a bit of filler, or my joke might work better with five panels, in which case I'll have to cram two panels into one or show speech bubbles for the second person without showing who they're coming from.
I think horizontal strips (like PBF) look nicer overall, but it creates a problem with the way I do things. I sometimes use different fonts in different comics - some of which are very difficult to read if the font size is too small. I also sometimes write quite a bit, like in
#69 - "Democratic Classroom". I think things like that are better suited for large four panel comics. I also use a widescreen monitor, so I'd have to be careful to make sure the comics fit into my site layout on a normal monitor.
Anyhow, I see plenty of funny comics that use an even number of panels. For example:
My comics would probably look more interesting if I used different panel layouts, and it would sometimes be better for the joke, but I guess the bottomline is that I'm not really up for going so far out of my way to entertain people for free with no benefits for myself. I might consider it a possibility for the future, and I actually have considered it before, but I find drawing with the mouse to be difficult and tedious. It takes me long enough to draw the comics, so I'd rather not have to also remake the layout everytime.
I wasn't really trying to offend all Gaians. Again, I didn't think people would take things so literally. I thought I made it clear that the gay/furry/etc. stuff is just a stereotype. It's not like I ever said it was an absolute fact. When I first brought that stuff up, I was being sarcastic. If I truly believed all Gaians were like that, do you think I would have made this topic in the first place?
But touche, my name and profile are as you say, though they don't really say much. The drawing in my profile doesn't have "anime eyes", and the style is actually a bit cartoony. There's no denying that the drawing is wearing Japanese stuff, like my current avatar, and it has an anime-like nose. You can also see that I like anime and J-rock. I don't do the pocky s**t or go around saying "kawaii!! ^^;;;;;;;;", though, and I've never had or wanted to have sushi. I consider my interest in Japan to be more genuine than a weeaboo's. Of course, it's not like you were saying I was a hardcore weeaboo for sure.
If I called you an idiot before (I don't feel like reading my previous posts right now), then I take it back. I still believe you're leaning towards the "zantetsken sux" side of the argument a bit rather than being completely neutral, and your tone seems a bit insulting even though you aren't using words like "idiot" (I don't see how treating someone like an idiot is much different than calling them one... not to say you're treating me like a retard here; I meant what I said, your tone just seems "a bit insulting" ).
