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And what's sad is that this will fall on deaf ears. There are ways to stress your disapproval. Making videos and upload it to Youtube, signing petitions, sending e-mail to your congressman. This isn't a protest by attacking a government website. It is cyber-terrorism and a crime. You're not hailing heroes. You're supporting petty criminals.
TigerBeetMan
Ok, I would like to adress a few things regarding the subject in the title.
1st - Anonymous is not a group or network of groups. It's simply a guise small hacker groups or solo hackers use to give themselves a name. Yes, that's the truth and no, I'm not going to give you cunnilingus.

2nd - Attempting to DDoS the 13 root or so root DNS servers it pointless because they are highly redundant and designed to handle strenuous loads. Reflective amplification won't quite cut it even if you had a few thousand people trying to take just a few down. It might slow down DNS queries a bit but it wouldn't completely "Deny" the service (which is the point of doing a DDoS). Everyone and their mother has access to this information, it's not that hard to research (i.e. www.google.com).

2rd - Even if you do manage to flood and block all 13, ISPs have their own replicated DNS servers that they can just reroute you to in the event of an emergency like this. Also, VPNs won't save you from being caught by your ISP. If your putting thousands of packets a second on the wire and sending them out, they'll know something's up. The principle is based on the fact that VPN protocols don't usually go down to the data link layer and even if a few do, they most certainly don't go down towards to physical layer. So what does all that mean? Well it means that while the information you're sending out can't be seen and that you cannot (or at least, likely wont) be able to be tracked by third parties, your ISP CAN track you because your router plugs straight into their lines which go straight into a physical switch. They might not be able to see the 'crypted information but they don't need to in order to know that your trying to "DDoS like a Boss".

3rd - Lets say hypothetically (still, if your not satisfied) that your little scheme does work. So what? The SOPA supporters are banking on the further support of those less informed or less-than-intelligent individuals who flock to things like Faux News. The inherent problem is this, what type of spin do you honestly think Fox News would give on a story like this? "A group of concerned individuals has temporarily shut down the Internet in order to further the cause of freedom and democracy" or "Cyber TERRORISTS have shutdown the Internet in order to slow down the economy and DESTROY AMERICA"? Yeah, I thought so. There are many ways to protest SOPA and quite frankly this is the worst one. It's like blowing up a train station to stop the train boys from checking you to see if you have your ticket.

4th - COME THE ******** ON. A DDoS? REALLY? REEEEEAAAAAAAAAAALLLYYYY? Talk about low hanging fruit.

Also, I would like to say that I am thoroughly against SOPA so don't take this the wrong way.

yeah
Infix's avatar

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TigerBeetMan
WokThaPhoc
All I'm saying is that I know Anonymous isn't a terrorist group out to bring down the United States like the media has or will portray them as.
I'm for Anon because I agree that the internet is mine and not the government's.

Well if you've read my posts you'd know that I know that. They, however, aren't an organized hacktivist group either.

they aren't even hacktivists. All of their common methods of attack are in direct conflict with the hacktivismo declaration
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TigerBeetMan

I'm glad someone besides me realizes just what anonymous is. The only part I don't agree with is what anonymous is made up of. They aren't a group of hackers, or solo hackers, or anything of it. The idea of anonymous is simply to be allowed to be anonymous on the internet. Groups like anonops turned it into a political thing, and hackers used it to hide their identities behind a large group.
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WokThaPhoc
All I'm saying is that I know Anonymous isn't a terrorist group out to bring down the United States like the media has or will portray them as.
I'm for Anon because I agree that the internet is mine and not the government's.

Actually they are committing data theft (SQLi) and DDoS attacks on government computers and databases, which potentially could threaten national security. Thats called a cyber terrorist.
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WokThaPhoc
All I'm saying is that I know Anonymous isn't a terrorist group out to bring down the United States like the media has or will portray them as.
I'm for Anon because I agree that the internet is mine and not the government's.

Thank you for the tip.
Son Of Primus's avatar

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TigerBeetMan


You've made some good points as well, however I would like to say something that differs from your last statement about how the hackers have made us aware of the problems in the system. I truly think that it's not that we don't know about the problems, it's that people just don't care. Generally, the average Joe has a very narrow view of the world and politics. I'm not saying that most people are totally self centered but they are to a degree. I can say that I am self centered as well, but I also (not bragging) believe that I have a broader perspective on the world than most (and by self centered I don't mean they only care about themselves, I mean that they only tend to truly care about things that they interact with directly in their lives like their family members or cars). The reason I say this is because I am what many people would consider a "hacker". By hacker, I don't mean that I necessarily break into networks and systems but I do have extensive knowledge of the subject matter and could if I wanted to and I know, at the very least, that true hackers (most of the good "hackers" are true hackers) are only doing this with partial, and some would even say ephemeral, concern.

Now, the main reason hackers break into systems is because it gives them an adrenaline rush and a euphoric feeling of accomplishment. You might say "Well, the hell why? It's just a bunch of text on a screen!" and from a literal point of view you would be correct. However, there's something about a hacker's mentality that lets them get off whenever they find a solution to a problem. See, hackers look at most computer systems as sort of locked chests (problems) which need to be opened with a key (solution) in order to see what's inside. You could liken it to playing "explorer" from when you were a small kid. It's ultimately impossible to describe the rush and mix of feelings you get when you break into a system but I'm just trying to give you a general idea.

You may be wondering why I'm wasting your time by telling you this. It's because we can't rely on people with no real attachment to our problem to solve said problem for us. This goes back to what I was saying in my first post and the little bit about Fox news in there. I haven't just formulated this opinion from a couple hours of monitoring CNN. Whenever I give serious advice I always contemplate and research (if applicable) beforehand. I am a hacker but I am also a concerned US citizen and for me at least, being a US citizen that takes precedence over any feeling of excitement I might get from "sticking it to the man".

This final part of my insight is directed towards any minors that may be concerened about laws and bills that share the same ideas as SOPA and ACTA: Write your congressmen and write seriously. I mean if you have to break out spellcheck, a thesaurus, and do some research DO IT. I wrote my congressman and I'm only 16 so I don't want to hear "I can't vote, so it dosen't matter." or that sassy age old excuse that some of the more mongoloid-esque members of my age group say: "I'm a teenager. I can't do anything because people don't treat me maturely". Inactivity is the enemy of productivity.


I meant that we have to give the Internet some credit for being able to spread knowledge, but you are right in that apathy is a concern. Also, I like your point in how everyone should take advantage of being able to talk to and petition their government. Being a voter myself, I often see my status as a given, but there are many people who aren't legal voters that are organizing protests against acts like SOPA and ACTA as well.

I can't say I have dabbled in hacking but I have exploited glitches found solely on my own at a time. Of course, after they were found, they were soon fixed. Questioning also gives us a broader prospective as well, another thing many of us often don't do. Maybe a large majority won't care, but I hope some, make that most, of them will make that decision to stand up for themselves.

I'm against anyone discounting a message, through censorship or not, even a "bad" one. Sometimes the truth can be hidden within, or the flaws in the argument will become apparent. I think it's impossible to conclude all of Anonymous and other rogue groups are bad, because it's such a broad collection of people. Some are spreading truth and some are doing disservice to the whole. The government can, and has before twisted lies to their own will, effectively making people believe. It bothers me that greed is the motivator behind this whole process. Like the bill H.R. 1981, which Lamar Smith is gleefully exploiting on the basis of protecting the weakest among us while ignoring the fact that it does not actively prevent illegal activities in the offline world while still allowing an exploitable power in likeness to the NDAA. It not only hides the truth but it turns our good intentions against themselves. We all want laws that will help us, not harm us, and I wish Lamar Smith would create a bill that would allow convicted predators be detained and treated longer for their behavior, create more incentives for reporting crimes, all the while making available more resources for victims. Such would be more effective than controlling the grounds criminals choose for their hunts, which can be easily moved or circumvented. If getting people angry about these issues is what we have to do, then I agree with that. I still have faith those who learn will do the right thing, people will make decisions for themselves.

I was one of those people making excuses. Before, I was ignorant of much of the law. The first time I heard about this my first thought is that it would effectively stop artistry, in which case, would destroy everything. Not only everything I've worked for, but everything anyone else had, whether they took my path or not. I didn't want that, for me, or anyone else. I have a passion, and I'm not making money of it right now. If I did someday down the road, I imagine I would be upset if someone was making profit off my work, but would I want to stop people from sharing my passion in the claim that it is hurting my sales? I can't imagine I would. After all, what good is living if no one appreciates what you put forth? Somewhere along the line, the big-wigs in charge have to realize this. After all, it isn't the hard-working artists of the blanket corporations that are majorly supporting this.

We are all human and we grieve, we mourn, we smile, we laugh, all in the same way. This is an issue that effects EVERYONE. So everyone should care, regardless of what YOU are.

I've read over the ACTA text and it really does not specify how each country will be responsible, other than false charge for each "illegal" download. The main thing I don't like is the idea of any international law that ties the hands of each country to undo, especially when the lion's share of piracy comes from nations outside our jurisdiction. Like, China. It seems to me like walking around in an iron cage all day so you don't get hit with a stone. Maybe it would even work, but then I ask, what is the next step?

We're all allies in the fight for sharing free information,

Good job.
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All I'm saying is that I know Anonymous isn't a terrorist group out to bring down the United States like the media has or will portray them as.
I'm for Anon because I agree that the internet is mine and not the government's.

Well if you've read my posts you'd know that I know that. They, however, aren't an organized hacktivist group either.
All I'm saying is that I know Anonymous isn't a terrorist group out to bring down the United States like the media has or will portray them as.
I'm for Anon because I agree that the internet is mine and not the government's.
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Son Of Primus
TigerBeetMan

But as I've stated, the way they are going about this is all wrong. DDoSing isn't going to solve any problems and it's not an attack on websites. It's an attack on DNS. DNS is the thing that allows you to type "http://www.google.com" and connect to port 80 through HTTP on google's web server. If we didn't have DNS you'd have to type "http://55.234.157.111" (I just made that IP address up) in order to connect to the google web server. When I say DDoS I mean "Denial of Service" which is when a web server is *blocked* from access to normal users by means of large scale packet flooding (sending a bunch of 1s and 0s through a wire with the intent of halting the server).

Now that we've got that quick lesson out of the way. My whole point on this is that regardless of wether or not the attack actually works dosen't matter. The principle I'm trying to get at is that they can't hold a gun to the Internet's head just to get their way for both moral and political (bad reputation and less support for the cause) reasons. I've given plenty of technical reasons as to why this method won't work but people still need to realize that this isn't the way to go. You have to think about all the anti-SOPA buisness heavyweights like google that would lose revenue through no fault of their own. Not only that, but it would also prevent the average user from accessing news outlets such as CNN, TIME, and the good old W. Post. That would just make it easier for these b*****d politicians to slip us a fast one because the most up to date information outlets are ones available on the net and most people, at least ones that I know, only really watch local news and get their political info from said online outlets.

Now, the best thing you can do is write your senators and congressmen letters telling them to vote against SOPA. We want to make them realize that they may not get re-elected if they refuse to represent the people. A threat to their job security will make them back off. If I was a young senator I'd rather keep my post and vote no than risk losing the next election (and the cool 170 grand that comes with it).


I completely agree with your points, and I will write my senator and congressmen the right, American way. I personally think the Anonymous attacks will stop when this Internet Censorship thing is buried and dead, but it won't be until more people know about it. I agree blocking out Wikipedia is a better way to send a message than what rogues are doing, but everyone has a right to send their message. The justice system will prosecute them, but they're doing this knowing that is the risk. I don't think it helps that regulations on piracy are focused more on the criminal level than the preventative one. I believe there are a lot better ways to combat piracy than slapping online pirates with higher fines and sentences than what some rapists and murderers receive, but I imagine we can agree on this point. The fact that some people are taking this risk anyway serves to illustrate the point that something is wrong, so I give them credit for that, if not anything else.

Websites like Google and Wikipedia, have given us the floor. The hackers have made us aware of the problems with our system, so let us learn from their actions and talk about it.


You've made some good points as well, however I would like to say something that differs from your last statement about how the hackers have made us aware of the problems in the system. I truly think that it's not that we don't know about the problems, it's that people just don't care. Generally, the average Joe has a very narrow view of the world and politics. I'm not saying that most people are totally self centered but they are to a degree. I can say that I am self centered as well, but I also (not bragging) believe that I have a broader perspective on the world than most (and by self centered I don't mean they only care about themselves, I mean that they only tend to truly care about things that they interact with directly in their lives like their family members or cars). The reason I say this is because I am what many people would consider a "hacker". By hacker, I don't mean that I necessarily break into networks and systems but I do have extensive knowledge of the subject matter and could if I wanted to and I know, at the very least, that true hackers (most of the good "hackers" are true hackers) are only doing this with partial, and some would even say ephemeral, concern.

Now, the main reason hackers break into systems is because it gives them an adrenaline rush and a euphoric feeling of accomplishment. You might say "Well, the hell why? It's just a bunch of text on a screen!" and from a literal point of view you would be correct. However, there's something about a hacker's mentality that lets them get off whenever they find a solution to a problem. See, hackers look at most computer systems as sort of locked chests (problems) which need to be opened with a key (solution) in order to see what's inside. You could liken it to playing "explorer" from when you were a small kid. It's ultimately impossible to describe the rush and mix of feelings you get when you break into a system but I'm just trying to give you a general idea.

You may be wondering why I'm wasting your time by telling you this. It's because we can't rely on people with no real attachment to our problem to solve said problem for us. This goes back to what I was saying in my first post and the little bit about Fox news in there. I haven't just formulated this opinion from a couple hours of monitoring CNN. Whenever I give serious advice I always contemplate and research (if applicable) beforehand. I am a hacker but I am also a concerned US citizen and for me at least, being a US citizen that takes precedence over any feeling of excitement I might get from "sticking it to the man".

This final part of my insight is directed towards any minors that may be concerened about laws and bills that share the same ideas as SOPA and ACTA: Write your congressmen and write seriously. I mean if you have to break out spellcheck, a thesaurus, and do some research DO IT. I wrote my congressman and I'm only 16 so I don't want to hear "I can't vote, so it dosen't matter." or that sassy age old excuse that some of the more mongoloid-esque members of my age group say: "I'm a teenager. I can't do anything because people don't treat me maturely". Inactivity is the enemy of productivity.
Son Of Primus's avatar

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TigerBeetMan

But as I've stated, the way they are going about this is all wrong. DDoSing isn't going to solve any problems and it's not an attack on websites. It's an attack on DNS. DNS is the thing that allows you to type "http://www.google.com" and connect to port 80 through HTTP on google's web server. If we didn't have DNS you'd have to type "http://55.234.157.111" (I just made that IP address up) in order to connect to the google web server. When I say DDoS I mean "Denial of Service" which is when a web server is *blocked* from access to normal users by means of large scale packet flooding (sending a bunch of 1s and 0s through a wire with the intent of halting the server).

Now that we've got that quick lesson out of the way. My whole point on this is that regardless of wether or not the attack actually works dosen't matter. The principle I'm trying to get at is that they can't hold a gun to the Internet's head just to get their way for both moral and political (bad reputation and less support for the cause) reasons. I've given plenty of technical reasons as to why this method won't work but people still need to realize that this isn't the way to go. You have to think about all the anti-SOPA buisness heavyweights like google that would lose revenue through no fault of their own. Not only that, but it would also prevent the average user from accessing news outlets such as CNN, TIME, and the good old W. Post. That would just make it easier for these b*****d politicians to slip us a fast one because the most up to date information outlets are ones available on the net and most people, at least ones that I know, only really watch local news and get their political info from said online outlets.

Now, the best thing you can do is write your senators and congressmen letters telling them to vote against SOPA. We want to make them realize that they may not get re-elected if they refuse to represent the people. A threat to their job security will make them back off. If I was a young senator I'd rather keep my post and vote no than risk losing the next election (and the cool 170 grand that comes with it).


I completely agree with your points, and I will write my senator and congressmen the right, American way. I personally think the Anonymous attacks will stop when this Internet Censorship thing is buried and dead, but it won't be until more people know about it. I agree blocking out Wikipedia is a better way to send a message than what rogues are doing, but everyone has a right to send their message. The justice system will prosecute them, but they're doing this knowing that is the risk. I don't think it helps that regulations on piracy are focused more on the criminal level than the preventative one. I believe there are a lot better ways to combat piracy than slapping online pirates with higher fines and sentences than what some rapists and murderers receive, but I imagine we can agree on this point. The fact that some people are taking this risk anyway serves to illustrate the point that something is wrong, so I give them credit for that, if not anything else.

Websites like Google and Wikipedia, have given us the floor. The hackers have made us aware of the problems with our system, so let us learn from their actions and talk about it.
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Son Of Primus
Yeah, I'm going to defend the message of anyone who is speaking out. Do I agree with hackers taking down websites to defend against website takedowns? No. Would I do this myself? No. Do I agree with why they are doing it? Yes. Anonymous is the only one who is responsible for Anonymous. I highly doubt the fear-mongering will work on both sides in this case as the information about faulty laws is being passed around, regardless of how overblown it is. I'm willing to bet at least 90% of people know they are being lied to by now, and those who are intelligent on these agreements, or informed by those who are will research the information for themselves. The ordinary person in America does not pay attention to anything important unless it is exciting, sad as this fact is. ACTA was signed without the general consensus of American citizens, not that there were enough people concerned about actively looking for information on it, not to mention the general media isn't giving fair coverage to the efforts against Internet censorship because they are bought out by the corporate dollar. I see the whole thing a big stunt that is made to cross the line, not tear down everything. I don't speak for all, but for most.

I think it is a sad day when laws have to be broken in order to send a message. Most who are giving them nods realize this. Really, the fault is on the system for not learning from their mistakes, I believe Anonymous is going to be the least of the government's problems their if some of these ideas made at a water cooler are allowed to pass through.

Thanks for making some good points anyway.

But as I've stated, the way they are going about this is all wrong. DDoSing isn't going to solve any problems and it's not an attack on websites. It's an attack on DNS. DNS is the thing that allows you to type "http://www.google.com" and connect to port 80 through HTTP on google's web server. If we didn't have DNS you'd have to type "http://55.234.157.111" (I just made that IP address up) in order to connect to the google web server. When I say DDoS I mean "Denial of Service" which is when a web server is *blocked* from access to normal users by means of large scale packet flooding (sending a bunch of 1s and 0s through a wire with the intent of halting the server).

Now that we've got that quick lesson out of the way. My whole point on this is that regardless of wether or not the attack actually works dosen't matter. The principle I'm trying to get at is that they can't hold a gun to the Internet's head just to get their way for both moral and political (bad reputation and less support for the cause) reasons. I've given plenty of technical reasons as to why this method won't work but people still need to realize that this isn't the way to go. You have to think about all the anti-SOPA buisness heavyweights like google that would lose revenue through no fault of their own. Not only that, but it would also prevent the average user from accessing news outlets such as CNN, TIME, and the good old W. Post. That would just make it easier for these b*****d politicians to slip us a fast one because the most up to date information outlets are ones available on the net and most people, at least ones that I know, only really watch local news and get their political info from said online outlets.

Now, the best thing you can do is write your senators and congressmen letters telling them to vote against SOPA. We want to make them realize that they may not get re-elected if they refuse to represent the people. A threat to their job security will make them back off. If I was a young senator I'd rather keep my post and vote no than risk losing the next election (and the cool 170 grand that comes with it).
Son Of Primus's avatar

Dapper Explorer

Yeah, I'm going to defend the message of anyone who is speaking out. Do I agree with hackers taking down websites to defend against website takedowns? No. Would I do this myself? No. Do I agree with why they are doing it? Yes. Anonymous is the only one who is responsible for Anonymous. I highly doubt the fear-mongering will work on both sides in this case as the information about faulty laws is being passed around, regardless of how overblown it is. I'm willing to bet at least 90% of people know they are being lied to by now, and those who are intelligent on these agreements, or informed by those who are will research the information for themselves. The ordinary person in America does not pay attention to anything important unless it is exciting, sad as this fact is. ACTA was signed without the general consensus of American citizens, not that there were enough people concerned about actively looking for information on it, not to mention the general media isn't giving fair coverage to the efforts against Internet censorship because they are bought out by the corporate dollar. I see the whole thing a big stunt that is made to cross the line, not tear down everything. I don't speak for all, but for most.

I think it is a sad day when laws have to be broken in order to send a message. Most who are giving them nods realize this. Really, the fault is on the system for not learning from their mistakes, I believe Anonymous is going to be the least of the government's worries if some of these ideas made at a water cooler are allowed to pass through.

Thanks for making some good points anyway.
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Ok, I would like to adress a few things regarding the subject in the title.
1st - Anonymous is not a group or network of groups. It's simply a guise small hacker groups or solo hackers use to give themselves a name. Yes, that's the truth and no, I'm not going to give you cunnilingus.

2nd - Attempting to DDoS the 13 root or so root DNS servers it pointless because they are highly redundant and designed to handle strenuous loads. Reflective amplification won't quite cut it even if you had a few thousand people trying to take just a few down. It might slow down DNS queries a bit but it wouldn't completely "Deny" the service (which is the point of doing a DDoS). Everyone and their mother has access to this information, it's not that hard to research (i.e. www.google.com).

2rd - Even if you do manage to flood and block all 13, ISPs have their own replicated DNS servers that they can just reroute you to in the event of an emergency like this. Also, VPNs won't save you from being caught by your ISP. If your putting thousands of packets a second on the wire and sending them out, they'll know something's up. The principle is based on the fact that VPN protocols don't usually go down to the data link layer and even if a few do, they most certainly don't go down towards to physical layer. So what does all that mean? Well it means that while the information you're sending out can't be seen and that you cannot (or at least, likely wont) be able to be tracked by third parties, your ISP CAN track you because your router plugs straight into their lines which go straight into a physical switch. They might not be able to see the 'crypted information but they don't need to in order to know that your trying to "DDoS like a Boss".

3rd - Lets say hypothetically (still, if your not satisfied) that your little scheme does work. So what? The SOPA supporters are banking on the further support of those less informed or less-than-intelligent individuals who flock to things like Faux News. The inherent problem is this, what type of spin do you honestly think Fox News would give on a story like this? "A group of concerned individuals has temporarily shut down the Internet in order to further the cause of freedom and democracy" or "Cyber TERRORISTS have shutdown the Internet in order to slow down the economy and DESTROY AMERICA"? Yeah, I thought so. There are many ways to protest SOPA and quite frankly this is the worst one. It's like blowing up a train station to stop the train boys from checking you to see if you have your ticket.

4th - COME THE ******** ON. A DDoS? REALLY? REEEEEAAAAAAAAAAALLLYYYY? Talk about low hanging fruit.

Also, I would like to say that I am thoroughly against SOPA so don't take this the wrong way.

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