In response to the close and change in reasoning of 133TGATE

[Adnama Lavode]

Seductive Pudding

Menstrual Cramps

Janine Melnitz

Just noticed this little rule in the Exchange.

Quote:

Highest Donator Contests, and all variations of it are not permitted.

These contests involve the promise of an item to the person giving the highest amount of donations. They are essentially like auctions, except bids for the item are not returned.

Also, giveaway threads that claim that donating more will increase the chances of getting the item(s) being given away are considered variants of this type of contest, and are not allowed as well.

Announcement from the Admin regarding Highest Donator Contests.

How does that related with Gaia's incentives regarding those rare recolor halos mentioned in this thread? These contests have been held during a couple of these kick starters already. Apologies if the point is slightly off the main point, but I think things may need to be clarified before more misunderstanding ensues. It's probably preemptive, but forewarned is forearmed especially concerning the staff. They can have an answer to give before senior staff collectively go on vacations again.

That's actually a really, really good find.
Why is it that Gaians cannot do these types of contests but that Staff can? Not to mention, why is it okay and perfectly acceptable for staff to win these contests? These contests are made for users, not staff. I am 100% okay with moderators winning these items since they are volunteer but it's not okay to allow staff to win.

Could you imagine if a McDonalds employee won a large prize from the Monopoly games? There would be chaos in that wake.

Because if a user does it, they end up with a bunch of gold and could even fake highest donations, scamming users by forcing them to donate the most to win a prize. Kickstarters and gold sinks delete any gold donated. The gold doesn't magically get added to a super secret staff account. It. Gets. DELETED. This means the contest holder (Gaia) doesn't benefit from any of the donations. They just grant the items to the highest donors.

Well, it seems like when staff do it we have the same result as when dishonest users do it, seeing as though a staff member walked away with a top prize for donating to a kickstarter. I'd say a little piece of Gaia benefited there. They benefited because they could see what the highest donations were and they were able to top it any time they wanted because they had knowledge we don't have as users. I won't bother going into whether or not the gold they used was legitimate, since we'll never actually know (Zero says it is, but it's not like he hasn't told lies about more important things.) However, that's an item a user could have had and could have won legitimately. Whether or not the staff member actually did look to see what the top donations were is not the focus though, it's the fact that they can and that should be enough to keep them from participating in these sorts of events. If you're wanting things to be fair in contests, then you should want this.

It just doesn't make sense to automatically think a governing entity is being truthful and righteous in all their actions. Governing entities are comprised of people with the same flaws as the rest of humanity.

[Monochrome]

Lydia V Grey

Queen Monochrome

Lydia V Grey

Queen Monochrome

Lydia V Grey

Queen Monochrome

http://s20.postimg.org/ozuuhmhgt/truthinessbitchresize.png

See, the problem is that, at its core, it's not a contest. Incentives are not equal to contests. You and I can go back and forth forever, but the reality is that, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because there's really no way anything like this would hold up in court.

And Gaia isn't offering a "chance" through a drawing, raffle, or random selection. It's literally, "If you donated the most currency, you'll get -insert item here-." There's no "chance" involved.

That, and the staff member who won, what, a halo, or something, said they were putting it into Flynn's Plunder anyway. So, I mean, at the end of the day, absolutely nothing was lost.

We don't know what the outcome of a legal challenge would be because none has been made and no one with a legal degree has held it up against the written letter of the law to make a defining judgement. Though, it is hardly worth speculating over.

Even if the staff member placed the halo in Flynn's Plunder, it still removed the opportunity for general users to gain that prize through its original means. It doesn't sit well with most of the user base if what I have read is correct.

As a business, Gaia needs to be careful how it treads with the paying customers, they seem to be dwindling at an alarming rate. This means addressing these situations with a high standard of ethics, honesty, and EXCELLENT customer service. Something they have neglected for many years and seem to show an almost cartoonish amount of incompetence that yields these very high levels of customer dissatisfaction. Christ, if anyone in any of the firms I have ever worked with behaved the way they do they would be fired and have a hard time finding work anywhere else.

http://s20.postimg.org/ozuuhmhgt/truthinessbitchresize.png

I don't know why you suddenly went off into a mini-rant about "ethics", but, uh...

All I really have to say is that, with no legal tender being used, the goldsink cannot really be considered a "contest" in the same way that one would consider a raffle paid for with legal tender a "contest". Argue all you want, but the point still stands that no one loses anything, because no legal tender was put into the goldsink.

"But people bought gold with real money!"

Gold is not backed by legal tender. No one knows how much gold one would get if they paid Gaia a dollar. If the goldsink were instead a GCash sink, there might be problems with employees participating. But since no money is being lost, there's really nothing "illegal" about it.

...Also, I think you're severely overestimating how many people actually care about Gaia's antics. See, because you claim that Gaia is losing paying customers, but... There's no proof that they are. Most paying customers only care about getting what they pay for. If I give Gaia 10 dollars, and I receive 10 dollars worth of GCash, that's all I'd care about. I have a feeling that most of the people who complain about Gaia's business "ethics" are people who have not given a dime to this site. But that's just me.

Again...raffle is only one form of contest. There are other forms that fall under the legal definition.

You keep coming back to legal tender as if it makes a difference. Most contests are held with "no purchase necessary" because it risks being legally considered a lottery (which is gambling and has a different set of laws governing).

The loss of money is not what determines whether or not there has been a breach in the law. When there is no purchase necessary to participate in a contest, no money exchanges hands, but the company holding the contest is still bound to the laws regarding contests and eligibility. If we take for instance, McDonald's Monopoly contest. No purchase is necessary to get game pieces. Customers are provided with pieces by logging into their website, writing, or by going to participating restaurants. You match the pieces, you win. Employees are still not allowed to participate even if it is just for a free hamburger.

As to my side remarks about ethics, I am pointing to how this entire debacle has been handled. Had Gaia been transparent and honest about what they had been doing to begin with instead of using half truths, fabrications, and evasion, the users would not be this upset.

Also, I do believe I saw a post earlier in another thread to a site that showed they have lost about 35% of their customers. (Please note, that any user of the site is a customer). As for your information, I have given more than a bit of money to this company and I stopped because of their business practices. To assume that people complaining about ethics are not people who spend is an incorrect view. And even those who don't buy Gaia Cash provide the site with revenue and should be given the same certain amount of care. A good business turns nonpaying customers into paying ones.

http://s20.postimg.org/ozuuhmhgt/truthinessbitchresize.png

I was going to type up this really long post.. Okay, well, not that long. But I realized that finding information for this is exhausting. Have you actually tried looking up information in regards to this specific "law" that prohibits employees from participating in company events such as raffles that ISN'T only referring to a specific state? Of course, I actually looked up your MacDonalds example, which does hold up as true. However, whether the same can be said for other companies, I have no idea. Because I have no idea where the hell I'd even start looking for this particular "law". Maybe I'm an idiot.

That said, if it were illegal, as you're saying it is, and assuming that Gaia has lawyers because why wouldn't they, why would Gaia's lawyers allow someone to do this and get away with it? Surely they know that it's illegal, if in fact it is illegal.

Like many laws, there are loopholes. If what this particular staffer did was "illegal", chances are, it probably wasn't, if only because someone exploited a loophole. That's what I'm figuring, and that's why I am claiming that what they did wasn't illegal.

THAT SAID.

I can't complain about Gaia's ethics because I don't have the full story. I don't know what happens behind the scenes. What I know is what Gaia tells me. Who knows what is actually going on? But I'm certainly not going to pass judgement when 1. I don't pretend to know how to run a business and 2. I don't have the entire story.

Assuming that you and I saw the same thread, I actually questioned the legitimacy of those statistics. Third-party sites can only have so much information. Now, sure, a third-party site could certainly track web traffic, but even then, I'd still question the legitimacy of such information.

I didn't say all paying users didn't care, now did I? I said most. But we're not arguing semantics here. Here's what I can say about Gaia, from what I see. Nearly every single time Gaia releases a new Limited Item, it is bought out within the same day. I don't know about what you think, but when an LI costs 6 dollars, and there's enough of them sold to net Gaia 5000 dollars in profit, I'm going to go on a limb here and say that they're doing pretty well, despite being a "bad business", as you appear to be implying they are.

Sure, Gaia has made some incredibly stupid decisions as of late. But, to be honest, do you think that most people care? There is a vocal minority, sure, but they don't represent the majority, no matter how much they think they do.

The Dept of Consumer Affairs is where you can start for a list of federal guidelines. But it should be advised that every state has a set of regulations as well, some of them more strict than the federal guideline. I am unsure how that would affect an internet business with employees and customer outside of the state where the business is headquartered.

I don't judge Gaia's profits by what I see from a few items of the cash shop. I look at the state of the site itself (Neglected and abandoned features, a ticket system that is backlogged and barely moves, poor customer service, abandoned projects and products, a lack of sponsors, more invasive and hostile advertising) and the site itself is in a state of decay that does not happen to healthy thriving businesses. While many businesses extend special attention to large spenders, large spenders are rarely the primary support for most successful businesses (unless you are dealing in goods specifically for the minority "wealthy" but I seriously doubt we could compare Gaia to a yacht retailer). If there is a drop in traffic it means there is a smaller pool of customers. Ideally, and especially for an internet business, volume is the name of the game. You want as many people spending as possible and large spenders are almost always going to be the minority. When you have that volume and a good flow to profits your business does not show signs of neglect and decay and the staff does not resort to trickery and half truths as a form of customer service.

Let me tell you a thing. Navigating that site is ******** awful. I was going to go and get on your a** about not giving me a direct link to the specific place where it talks about contests, as a whole, but then I realized that, hell, you probably couldn't find it, either. So that might be something I check later, when I'm more awake.

And no, I'm like you. As these laws and regulations vary from state to state, I don't know how an internet business with customers and employees outside of the site's state would be affected. Part of me wants to believe that state-by-state laws and regulations would only apply for the state that the site is hosted in. It's why there's also a federal guideline as well. It sort of helps, I guess, to be an umbrella if a business operates in one place, but has customers everywhere else.

See, I judge success by the company still existing, and the site being up. Of course, there are outdated features, and apparently a 35% drop in customers, paying or nonpaying, but despite that, Gaia still seems to be chugging along. I think that you believe that businesses should, ideally, be a certain way. Gaia isn't like other businesses. Not that I'm saying that is a good thing. That's just how it is. As long as Gaia manages to find a way to stay afloat, there is certainly merit in me saying that, yeah, they're still making profits. Because if they weren't, why would they continue to keep the site up? If I were taking severe losses, I would cut my losses and run. It's because Gaia continues to "thrive" that there still has to be profit.

And, well. As for the staff and all that... I won't judge what they're doing or what they're telling us because, well, I just don't have all of the information. None of us do. Maybe I just like to get all of the facts first before jumping on the bandwagon and yelling that Gaia's staff are liars and thieves and whatever it is people are on about these days.

[Gash Thrashum]

Catalyste

Gash Thrashum

You can read into Zero's comments and arrive at my conclusion. Zero should have been clear about where the ticket came from given his initial statement. I know this for a fact because the user stated so, just not on Gaia. For circumstantial evidence, the user now has a couple of tickets they didn't have before and have not listed or tried to sell the Double Rainbow Ticket ever since. If you need absolute proof, you'll have to ask Zero or the user in question because it's up to them whether or not they want to disclose it publicly now.

The original ticket was absolutely kept by Gaia, no doubt about it. I mean, you can personally doubt it because you don't have the evidence sitting right in front of you (and I can't fault anyone for having this stance), but you'd be wrong.

Reading into something is not the same as interpreting it's meaning, I hope you understand where I'm comin from with this.

I read Zero's comments and the user's postings, as well as the threads that mentioned the issue and it was clear to me that anything they use would have to be either generated or gained at a very low cost in order to bypass another fiasco.

Also, they did give that user the option to have whatever they wanted, which would explain the additional tickets. How they got another one is completely unknown since it could have come from an unknown source besides Gaia.

You cannot prove the "original" was kept by Gaia. The tickets were generated by Gaia in the first place. What Gaia can prove as to whom owned which deeply relies on their database. It's not something we users were meant to break into and figure out.

It seems to me that you're going off of what you believe lies between the lines. I hate to say it, but that doesn't make it fact. That's simply conjecture.

Like I said, you can ask Zero or the user for an explanation about the ticket, but if you believe it's a new copy, you will be 100% wrong.

[AngelinARosebed]

THE_FAIRY_EMPRESS

AngelinARosebed

What I don't understand, is why are people still harping about that halo? What does that have to do with staff raising the ABPs? I understood after asking someone about it before why people were concerned, but the matter has been resolved. No matter if the gold was legit or not and matter if the staff should have been allowed to win or not, they already said they would give the halo up to either Flynn's or else pass it down to the user who had come in eleventh as the top donator. Isn't that what all this is about? To have transactions reversed? Whether the staff member was right or wrong, whether they're lying about the gold being bought or not, if they're willing to rectify it, why is the matter still being debated?

Because they've only rectified a portion of the problems.
Personally I'm not to worried about the halo, as long as in future theres clarity about staff involvement in contests.
The main issue is that they only address one of several over MP price purchases.
The staff statement does not totally add up. As they've still put in way more money then they've tarn out.
It's mainly now a principle thing over the lack of admin transparency in various issues.

Right, but none of that has anything to do with the halo. I don't understand why the issue of the halo if it was legit or not is being discussed and debated more than the issues that people still want addressed. It just doesn't make sense to me, just seems counterproductive to getting the answers people want. I could understand suggestions on how to improve for the future, such as like you said with more transparency in the rules of staff being allowed to participate or not or what they think should be done with the halo. It's just that I see more people arguing over details that don't really matter anymore in the grand scheme of things.

[Narumi Misuhara]

Hey guys, we're sorry but there's not much more we are going to say on this incident. It boils down to an initiative was conceived and then poorly executed. Those that participated in it's execution have since been enlightened regarding the sensitivity of the Gaia ecosystem. We will not be explaining all the details to the community. Gaia made a mistake, and we have handled it internally. From a community standpoint we understand this leaves a lot of gaping holes, and for that we're sorry. We locked the threads not to try to silence people, but because of the fact they were turning into attacks against others in the community and staff. It was fueling anger and hate and had long since ceased to be constructive.

To answer some sideline questions...
Why is ZO the one posting everything?
He is an Admin. The role of our Admin team aside from moderation is to be ambassadors to the community on behalf of the company, that doesn't mean others don't come out with posts/statements but simply that it's their official role.

Why are staff allowed to participate in contests?
Many staff members are also community members so it's fun to participate in them and feel involved. It's very rare that a staff member wins a contest they have entered. I can recall twice that it has happened in the past 5 years. In each of those cases we selected again so a non-staff Gaian could win, and we will continue that practice.

Why does so and so staff account have that exclusive/limited/etc. item?
We produce so many items that is not feasible for our QA team alone to test them all. So instead all staff members are able to volunteer to test items. They are then allowed to keep the item they helped test. With the exception of wearing the item we do request staff members not introduce it to the market but this is not a hard rule. As for the halo that is in question that item will be released in the next Kickstarter.

If you have more you wish to communicate regarding "l337Gate" please send it to [e-mail] We have been responding to inquiries there. If you have done so and not yet gotten a reply, please send in a new one, it may simply have been missed. If you have constructive feedback on the issue then of course continue posting here!

[AngelinARosebed]

Menstrual Cramps

AngelinARosebed

What I don't understand, is why are people still harping about that halo? What does that have to do with staff raising the ABPs? I understood after asking someone about it before why people were concerned, but the matter has been resolved. No matter if the gold was legit or not and no matter if the staff should have been allowed to win or not, they already said they would give the halo up to either Flynn's or else pass it down to the user who had come in eleventh as the top donator. Isn't that what all this is about? To have transactions reversed? Whether the staff member was right or wrong, whether they're lying about the gold being bought or not, if they're willing to rectify it, why is the matter still being debated?

I think it's because they locked the other thread and didn't give anyone time to rebuttal and just redirected everyone to usertalk. I'm not sure if you've tried using usertalk but it's dreadful. I've sent at least seven different e-mails to that with not one response. Nothing.

People want to discuss the response in public. And I want my opinion known that the halo should be given to the next in line from that kickstarter and not Flynn'd. Whoever #11 was, deserves it.

I agree the halo should be passed to the 11th person and not put in Flynn. People aren't discussing that though. The only thing I see being debated is whether it was ethical or legal or if they were telling the truth. None of that is important at this point if they are, in fact, willing to give the halo up. By all means, I can understand suggestions on what to do with the halo, but constantly focusing on and debating the matter of them getting the halo just seems counterproductive to getting the other things people want resolved done.

[a happy whale]

Queen Monochrome

The Rain is Falling

Queen Monochrome

Camile Stowecroft

Queen Monochrome

Camile Stowecroft

Yes, he's one of my friends, but if you really want to know then just ask him yourself.

http://s20.postimg.org/ozuuhmhgt/truthinessbitchresize.png

If I can be frank with you, I don't particularly like him, because the attitude he displayed was that he was more concerned about himself than the state of the economy. All he cared about was getting his gold back, or everyone else should have their transactions reversed, too, even though their transactions didn't even come near 133 trillion gold.

So I would not ever want to contact him.

However, what I would like to see is him come out publicly with a certain piece of evidence that I mentioned to Gash in my post above.

Actually since I've known him he's always been a really nice person. The reason he was so upset was because he had offered to help some of our other friends with finishing their quests, and then wasn't able to and he felt like a liar to them. He does a lot for other people. He wasn't being greedy or self centered at all. Try putting yourself in his shoes, wouldn't you feel the same way too?

http://s20.postimg.org/ozuuhmhgt/truthinessbitchresize.png

See, here's the thing. I don't really care if he's nice. He's not my friend. He is a stranger. And how he acted, in my eyes, was selfish.

Sure, anyone can claim that they want a ridiculous amount of gold so that they can help people, but guess what? People also lie. How much was he planning on giving to people that he really needed that 133 trillion gold? Was 33 trillion (or 73 trillion depending on which story we're going by) not enough?

I can't put myself in his shoes, because I can admit that I am a selfish, greedy person. If the deal went through as it was originally supposed to and I were your friend, with me getting 33 trillion gold, my ticket back, and one item of my choice from the site, I would be one very happy camper.

Of course, you'll probably be offended by what I said. Or you'll be offended for your friend. Or whatever. But I'm just being honest with you here. First impressions go a long way, and I, personally, do not like him. But that's just me. I don't really matter.

As an outsider who doesn't know him, I would like to mention that Zero had reassured him before this whole thing blew up that the gold was legitamate.

If a staff member reassured me that the gold was legit then I find out they lied, I would want to keep my gold too.

But anyway thats my opinion.

Well, technically, the gold was legitimate. You know, according to Gaia, anyway. The person who bought the ticket originally said they received the gold though generators, so... It's not necessarily illegitimate. So there's that.

Just a thought, but... The reason all of this "blew up" wasn't because of staff. If that user wanted to be pissed off at someone, perhaps the user should look to the people who made such a big deal about it. Is it possible that Gaia may not have reversed the transaction had no one made a fuss about it? Well, I dunno. 133 trillion gold is still a lot for one person to have. Maybe the same thing would have happened, regardless. But I think that the second users started losing their s**t over it, it didn't make the staff's decision any easier.

inb4 "victim-blaming" or something

And as for the staff "lying". You know, it's not that simple. If I were a staff member assigned to buy items at ridiculous prices, and I were on a mule, I'd think that my first plan of action would be to not inform people that I am, in fact, staff, nor lead them to believe that my transaction with them could be seen as suspicious. Did the staff member lie? Does a person with a wire also lie? ...Sure, it's a bad comparison, but that's the best I have.

And don't worry. It's not just your opinion. Most of the vocal minority sees it your way, so don't be too ashamed of having an opinion that opposes mine. XD

That was the mule lying though, Zero later clarified that the 133t was generated not bought so it was not legitimate.

I know, the reason it blew up wasn't the staff, they were trying to cover it up/shush it. But I think it was important that we all learned that there was market manipulation that was helping the already inflated marketplace. In a way I am glad this all blew up into what it is.

Instead of lying they could have simply kept their mouth shut. The lies just make the problem worse.

[Menstrual Cramps]

Narumi Misuhara

Hey guys, we're sorry but there's not much more we are going to say on this incident. It boils down to an initiative was conceived and then poorly executed. Those that participated in it's execution have since been enlightened regarding the sensitivity of the Gaia ecosystem. We will not be explaining all the details to the community. Gaia made a mistake, and we have handled it internally. From a community standpoint we understand this leaves a lot of gaping holes, and for that we're sorry. We locked the threads not to try to silence people, but because of the fact they were turning into attacks against others in the community and staff. It was fueling anger and hate and had long since ceased to be constructive.

To answer some sideline questions...
Why is ZO the one posting everything?
He is an Admin. The role of our Admin team aside from moderation is to be ambassadors to the community on behalf of the company, that doesn't mean others don't come out with posts/statements but simply that it's their official role.

Why are staff allowed to participate in contests?
Many staff members are also community members so it's fun to participate in them and feel involved. It's very rare that a staff member wins a contest they have entered. I can recall twice that it has happened in the past 5 years. In each of those cases we selected again so a non-staff Gaian could win, and we will continue that practice.

Why does so and so staff account have that exclusive/limited/etc. item?
We produce so many items that is not feasible for our QA team alone to test them all. So instead all staff members are able to volunteer to test items. They are then allowed to keep the item they helped test. With the exception of wearing the item we do request staff members not introduce it to the market but this is not a hard rule. As for the halo that is in question that item will be released in the next Kickstarter.

If you have more you wish to communicate regarding "l337Gate" please send it to [e-mail] We have been responding to inquiries there. If you have done so and not yet gotten a reply, please send in a new one, it may simply have been missed. If you have constructive feedback on the issue then of course continue posting here!

On Usertalk:
Why is it SEVEN e-mails have all been missed? One? That's understandable but seven over the course of two years? That's disgusting. The fact that you guys can't set up some kind of confirmation system makes me completely ignore your request to go to user talk. To me, usertalk is a black hole that doesn't resolve anything at all.

On the Halo:
For the thousanth time.. that halo shouldn't be released again as yet ANOTHER kickstarter prize. That halo should be given to whoever was #11 and NO staff should be able to win a contest that is meant for community members. Staff have an unfair advantage.

On Answers from other Orange-Named Admins:
Please, enlighten me where other Admins have made judgement calls on anything else. Please show me where any other orange names have ever posted announcements/responses to anyone in SF. To my knowledge the only other person who did this is Sisky and she's been reassigned. You're Gaia staff, granted but my point is that a brown name had to do the job of an orange name who are supposed to and I quote: "be ambassadors to the community on behalf of the company."

Zero has been the scapegoat for everything, and that's really sad that his colleagues won't step to the plate and say anything anywhere. People don't even bother summoning Sandokiri or Stars anywhere because they never come.

My captcha for this response.
http://i.imgur.com/GwJAR6S.png

[Amia-Chan]

XakiNyota

From what I've gleaned, the original concern was brought up by other users monitoring the marketplace graphs.
This thread http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/gaia-community-discussion/glitch-in-the-gold-generators/t.94000135/
(It sort of starts from the bottom up of the first post for some reason so you should scroll down to the beginning. Or not, it's your call.)
And the one it links to breaks down the info in much more succinct points that you're free to browse and come to your own conclusions about.
I'm fairly certain I read that the original user had listed the item while taking offers in a forum.
Likely put it up as like "here's proof I have it" and also intentionally set it to be 133,333,333,333,337g because of "1337" without considering it might actually be purchased as it was set far higher than any believeable price for it.

Yeah, I've read through both of those threads, and I'm still kind of confused. xD;;
I guess not coming into it when it was first beginning caused me to miss out on something.
Nyaa... it just seems like a whole mess and misunderstanding to me.

I mean, the user did put it in MP.
Granted, for a ridiculous price, but they did list it...
And with how rampant GGs are, I don't doubt someone could have that amount - the limit is 9quintillion, I do believe.

Ahh, oh well.

It seems this situation is so volatile, members will never be happy with the outcome, unfortunately.

[Krissim Klaw]

Narumi Misuhara

Many staff members are also community members so it's fun to participate in them and feel involved. It's very rare that a staff member wins a contest they have entered. I can recall twice that it has happened in the past 5 years. In each of those cases we selected again so a non-staff Gaian could win, and we will continue that practice.

I doubt most users would have a problem with staff participating as long as if they won there was a reselection for the next community member. You say this is a practice however it wasn't originally done in this case until the community discovered it and brought it to light. It also still doesn't sound like it is getting passed to the user that should have won it.

As to part of the reason there is a big stink on why staff shouldn't be entering a lot of these contests, well you already touched some of it in your next bit.

Narumi Misuhara

We produce so many items that is not feasible for our QA team alone to test them all. So instead all staff members are able to volunteer to test items. They are then allowed to keep the item they helped test. With the exception of wearing the item we do request staff members not introduce it to the market but this is not a hard rule.

I've personally never had a problem with staffers being able to generate items for personal use, but as you say there is no hard rule about if they choose to sell. Once the item starts trading hands and they get gold for it, they are no longer playing fairly with the rest of the user base. Zero even mentioned directly in his post that the staffer who won the halo had been testing gold gens and had gold to burn from that . . .

Narumi Misuhara

Hey guys, we're sorry but there's not much more we are going to say on this incident. It boils down to an initiative was conceived and then poorly executed. Those that participated in it's execution have since been enlightened regarding the sensitivity of the Gaia ecosystem. We will not be explaining all the details to the community. Gaia made a mistake, and we have handled it internally. From a community standpoint we understand this leaves a lot of gaping holes, and for that we're sorry.

This is a slightly more satisfying apology than what Zero was told to say. Less excuses and more acknowledging a huge mistake was made. I don't really like singling out a few staffers though like this only happened because a few inexperienced staffers goofed. I would think before such a "test" on the economy could be done that approval from higher ups would be needed. I feel this idea passed in front of a number of staffers that were already well aware of the "sensitivity of the Gaia ecosystem" before it was approved.

[Gash Thrashum]

Narumi Misuhara

Hey guys, we're sorry but there's not much more we are going to say on this incident. It boils down to an initiative was conceived and then poorly executed. Those that participated in it's execution have since been enlightened regarding the sensitivity of the Gaia ecosystem. We will not be explaining all the details to the community. Gaia made a mistake, and we have handled it internally. From a community standpoint we understand this leaves a lot of gaping holes, and for that we're sorry. We locked the threads not to try to silence people, but because of the fact they were turning into attacks against others in the community and staff. It was fueling anger and hate and had long since ceased to be constructive.

To answer some sideline questions...
Why is ZO the one posting everything?
He is an Admin. The role of our Admin team aside from moderation is to be ambassadors to the community on behalf of the company, that doesn't mean others don't come out with posts/statements but simply that it's their official role.

Why are staff allowed to participate in contests?
Many staff members are also community members so it's fun to participate in them and feel involved. It's very rare that a staff member wins a contest they have entered. I can recall twice that it has happened in the past 5 years. In each of those cases we selected again so a non-staff Gaian could win, and we will continue that practice.

Why does so and so staff account have that exclusive/limited/etc. item?
We produce so many items that is not feasible for our QA team alone to test them all. So instead all staff members are able to volunteer to test items. They are then allowed to keep the item they helped test. With the exception of wearing the item we do request staff members not introduce it to the market but this is not a hard rule. As for the halo that is in question that item will be released in the next Kickstarter.

If you have more you wish to communicate regarding "l337Gate" please send it to [e-mail] We have been responding to inquiries there. If you have done so and not yet gotten a reply, please send in a new one, it may simply have been missed. If you have constructive feedback on the issue then of course continue posting here!

My constructive feedback:

- Generate items out of thin air to put into Flynn's Plunder instead of purchasing the already existing copies from users. The way you're going about it now temporarily gives the impression of lower supply, raises the average buy price, and then redistributes these items, especially the high end items, to those with the most gold who normally try to corner these markets. In the end, all you've done is increased the value of the item and put it into the hands of those who already most likely have multiple copies. It's a complete waste of time the way you're going about it now. Furthermore, where is this gold coming from that you're using to purchase the items for Flynn's Plunder? On that note...

- Refrain from injecting brand new gold into the system through mule/staff accounts at all costs. You already have gold generators in the CS (I won't get into this since I'm sure you've heard rants ad nauseam) so to add even more, especially for inane reasons, only serves to further devalue gold and destroy the economy.

- Find a way to reintroduce the items you artificially inflated or bought multiple copies of through new RIGs/bundles, or as newly generated items in Flynn's Plunder. Many items are now out of reach due to not only staff purchases, but the monopolies staff potentially created by putting excess gold in the hands of single users.

- Be transparent and use your actual accounts if you're going to participate in events meant for users. No one should be left wondering if they couldn't get into a top-10 because a staff mule account was involved. At least then, they'll know who to direct their anger at.

- Be honest and update statements made when they're later changed. If you're going to state that the Double Rainbow Ticket transaction is to be reversed and 100t is being removed from the account along with the user getting one item of their choosing, you should then update the community on the changes that have occurred since that statement was made. As it stands, I look like the village idiot when I make the factual claim that you kept the original ticket and left half or more of the user's "legitimate" gold as is, while most likely allowing them more than one extra item of their choosing as incentive. You will only look worse if this information comes to light through another avenue.

- Remove the excess gold (you still can) and rectify the transaction as originally stated if you're going to remain silent. Your best course of action is complete honesty and transparency. After this fiasco, users have more reasons to distrust the staff. I don't think you can afford this lack of transparency. Information has a way of leaking sometimes.


I don't think any of my points are unreasonable.

[Monochrome]

The Rain is Falling

Queen Monochrome

The Rain is Falling

Queen Monochrome

Camile Stowecroft

Actually since I've known him he's always been a really nice person. The reason he was so upset was because he had offered to help some of our other friends with finishing their quests, and then wasn't able to and he felt like a liar to them. He does a lot for other people. He wasn't being greedy or self centered at all. Try putting yourself in his shoes, wouldn't you feel the same way too?

http://s20.postimg.org/ozuuhmhgt/truthinessbitchresize.png

See, here's the thing. I don't really care if he's nice. He's not my friend. He is a stranger. And how he acted, in my eyes, was selfish.

Sure, anyone can claim that they want a ridiculous amount of gold so that they can help people, but guess what? People also lie. How much was he planning on giving to people that he really needed that 133 trillion gold? Was 33 trillion (or 73 trillion depending on which story we're going by) not enough?

I can't put myself in his shoes, because I can admit that I am a selfish, greedy person. If the deal went through as it was originally supposed to and I were your friend, with me getting 33 trillion gold, my ticket back, and one item of my choice from the site, I would be one very happy camper.

Of course, you'll probably be offended by what I said. Or you'll be offended for your friend. Or whatever. But I'm just being honest with you here. First impressions go a long way, and I, personally, do not like him. But that's just me. I don't really matter.

As an outsider who doesn't know him, I would like to mention that Zero had reassured him before this whole thing blew up that the gold was legitamate.

If a staff member reassured me that the gold was legit then I find out they lied, I would want to keep my gold too.

But anyway thats my opinion.

http://s20.postimg.org/ozuuhmhgt/truthinessbitchresize.png

Well, technically, the gold was legitimate. You know, according to Gaia, anyway. The person who bought the ticket originally said they received the gold though generators, so... It's not necessarily illegitimate. So there's that.

Just a thought, but... The reason all of this "blew up" wasn't because of staff. If that user wanted to be pissed off at someone, perhaps the user should look to the people who made such a big deal about it. Is it possible that Gaia may not have reversed the transaction had no one made a fuss about it? Well, I dunno. 133 trillion gold is still a lot for one person to have. Maybe the same thing would have happened, regardless. But I think that the second users started losing their s**t over it, it didn't make the staff's decision any easier.

inb4 "victim-blaming" or something

And as for the staff "lying". You know, it's not that simple. If I were a staff member assigned to buy items at ridiculous prices, and I were on a mule, I'd think that my first plan of action would be to not inform people that I am, in fact, staff, nor lead them to believe that my transaction with them could be seen as suspicious. Did the staff member lie? Does a person with a wire also lie? ...Sure, it's a bad comparison, but that's the best I have.

And don't worry. It's not just your opinion. Most of the vocal minority sees it your way, so don't be too ashamed of having an opinion that opposes mine. XD

That was the mule lying though, Zero later clarified that the 133t was generated not bought so it was not legitimate.

I know, the reason it blew up wasn't the staff, they were trying to cover it up/shush it. But I think it was important that we all learned that there was market manipulation that was helping the already inflated marketplace. In a way I am glad this all blew up into what it is.

Instead of lying they could have simply kept their mouth shut. The lies just make the problem worse.

Unless I missed something, can you show me where that was clarified? The 133 trillion gold being generated, I mean.

It didn't have to blow up like this if people knew how to act rationally. Instead, we have people losing their s**t, accusing staff members of s**t without even knowing the full story. The users want the staff to respect them enough to "tell the truth", but we have users that s**t on every staff member that tries to say anything.

If they kept their mouth shut, people would b***h. If they opened their mouth, people would b***h. Hell, look at Menstrual Cramp's response to Narumi. It doesn't matter what the staff does. It's no wonder why no one is getting answers.

[x_gokai-okuzuko_x]

edikit

XakiNyota

edikit

alright, i'm a bit (read: entirely) out of the loop here, but i'm curious as to what exactly everyone is hoping to get out of this

by the looks of it, zero admitted that they dun ******** up and apologized, which means he's done infinitely more to rectify this isolated shady incident than any of the gaia staff have done to rectify any other shady incident (and there have been a lot of them in the past year)

so what's the point of this?
what will drilling and dissecting every single statement actually accomplish here?

it sounds like you (speaking to the users as a whole, not specifically op) won't believe anything that gaia staff says regardless, unless perhaps it's what you want to hear
so i guess i just want to know what exactly it is that you want to hear

because, right now, coming from a user on the outside of this situation looking in, it appears like y'all are just beating a dead horse into a gross bloody mush...

--

disclaimer: i am in no way defending gaia
i've long since given up on this site
i refuse to support such a blatantly unethical company
i was just passing through and decided to check sf to see what bullshit gaia has come up with lately to enrage its users for the umpteenth time
saw this thread, read through the previous thread and few pages of this one
and am now offering my candid observations

From what I can see, and what I feel, what is wanted is a reversal of the sudden influx of gold into select few users' accounts.
A proper explanation as to why this took place in the first place. (it was suggested as a study, but what was the point of the study what did they learn what was the outcome, those would be nice to know.)
At least pretend to offer up the notion that this won't happen again, not just saying that they were in the wrong.

is there an easy way for the gold reversal to take place? it's likely that the gold has long since been re-distributed and in the grand scheme of things (given that ridiculous-looking marketplace graph) wouldn't actually make much of a difference on the state of the gaia economy anyway. i get that it would be a gesture though, and maybe that's more what it's about at this point.

as for the proper explanation, the one given honestly seems like a fair enough answer. i run tests and studies every single day to see how certain things will affect our business. i don't disclose those things with our clients, not only because those tests contain sensitive information about the company that our clients have no business knowing, but also because trying to explain it to them would be pointless to them and they likely wouldn't understand it anyway.

if i had to take a guess, assuming what zero said can be taken as fact (which, admittedly, probably can't), the study would have been to test the elasticity of the marketplace. would creating a massive influx have a lasting effect, or would even that eventually deflate over time? in that sense, removing that gold now would contaminate the results. it would also raise a lot of eyebrows ... "wait wtf is with this deflation all of a sudden" ... and then this whole fiasco would get dredged up all over again.

as for offering up the notion that it won't happen again, i doubt anyone would believe it for a second. how many times has gaia said "we'll never do this" or "we know what we're doing" or "our users' experience is our #1 priority" only to turn around -- sometimes the literal next day -- and do something that promotes the exact opposite of that notion? i think they know now that users are going to watching... very closely. as far as i'm concerned, the only way that they can prove that they won't do it again is by not doing it again.

To the bolded:
But if that's what they were testing, then buying the ticket at its ultra-high price was intentional. Zero said that was an "accident". Having his cake and eating it too.

[x_gokai-okuzuko_x]

*cracks knuckles* It's nice to see that no one on staff has learned how to apologize since the last time.

[I have a tissue]

X_Gokai-Okuzuko_X

edikit

XakiNyota

edikit

alright, i'm a bit (read: entirely) out of the loop here, but i'm curious as to what exactly everyone is hoping to get out of this

by the looks of it, zero admitted that they dun ******** up and apologized, which means he's done infinitely more to rectify this isolated shady incident than any of the gaia staff have done to rectify any other shady incident (and there have been a lot of them in the past year)

so what's the point of this?
what will drilling and dissecting every single statement actually accomplish here?

it sounds like you (speaking to the users as a whole, not specifically op) won't believe anything that gaia staff says regardless, unless perhaps it's what you want to hear
so i guess i just want to know what exactly it is that you want to hear

because, right now, coming from a user on the outside of this situation looking in, it appears like y'all are just beating a dead horse into a gross bloody mush...

--

disclaimer: i am in no way defending gaia
i've long since given up on this site
i refuse to support such a blatantly unethical company
i was just passing through and decided to check sf to see what bullshit gaia has come up with lately to enrage its users for the umpteenth time
saw this thread, read through the previous thread and few pages of this one
and am now offering my candid observations

From what I can see, and what I feel, what is wanted is a reversal of the sudden influx of gold into select few users' accounts.
A proper explanation as to why this took place in the first place. (it was suggested as a study, but what was the point of the study what did they learn what was the outcome, those would be nice to know.)
At least pretend to offer up the notion that this won't happen again, not just saying that they were in the wrong.

is there an easy way for the gold reversal to take place? it's likely that the gold has long since been re-distributed and in the grand scheme of things (given that ridiculous-looking marketplace graph) wouldn't actually make much of a difference on the state of the gaia economy anyway. i get that it would be a gesture though, and maybe that's more what it's about at this point.

as for the proper explanation, the one given honestly seems like a fair enough answer. i run tests and studies every single day to see how certain things will affect our business. i don't disclose those things with our clients, not only because those tests contain sensitive information about the company that our clients have no business knowing, but also because trying to explain it to them would be pointless to them and they likely wouldn't understand it anyway.

if i had to take a guess, assuming what zero said can be taken as fact (which, admittedly, probably can't), the study would have been to test the elasticity of the marketplace. would creating a massive influx have a lasting effect, or would even that eventually deflate over time? in that sense, removing that gold now would contaminate the results. it would also raise a lot of eyebrows ... "wait wtf is with this deflation all of a sudden" ... and then this whole fiasco would get dredged up all over again.

as for offering up the notion that it won't happen again, i doubt anyone would believe it for a second. how many times has gaia said "we'll never do this" or "we know what we're doing" or "our users' experience is our #1 priority" only to turn around -- sometimes the literal next day -- and do something that promotes the exact opposite of that notion? i think they know now that users are going to watching... very closely. as far as i'm concerned, the only way that they can prove that they won't do it again is by not doing it again.

To the bolded:
But if that's what they were testing, then buying the ticket at its ultra-high price was intentional. Zero said that was an "accident". Having his cake and eating it too.

I don't know why people make it a hobby to twist words. This isn't Fox News.



They already reversed it. I'm not sure why anyone is unwilling to believe that Gaia employees can't make human mistakes. Even when I was on my main I sold something with three extra zeros because a vendor wasn't paying close enough attention.

s**t happens, people make mistakes. It's entirely possible and easy to do with having so many decimal places into the billions and trillions.