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Anjoulie's avatar

Magnetic Phantom

A.D.1492
You level up by making caches. Later, you continue to level up by crafting recipes which require components you can find in caches, and other [game] items.
You need caches to level up.
Or, you can buy them all, but that would be more costly than the 15m mentioned.

Look, I know how Alchemy works.
I'm sorry, but this is not what I've been asking about. It's really not.
Please just let the person I actually quoted give her own answer.
Anjoulie's avatar

Magnetic Phantom

Mitsumi-chan
Well that's all there is. There's no magic behind it. emotion_eyebrow

Please just let the person I actually quoted give her own answer.
Anjoulie
_Trock_
To be fair, getting to level ten in alchemy shouldn't cost you more than 25 maybe 30m max (and that's for those who want it quick quick, you could probably manage for 10-15m if you took your time and even less if you were in no rush). It's a lot but it's the price of a kitty or something so it isn't outrageous. And you can grind caches/cases, or simply make them by buying components in the MP and selling them for a margin. All in all it's a very attainable goal for pretty much everyone.

Could you explain the strategy for the 10-15m leveling?
(Honest question, no sarcasm.)
10-15m is still a lot for many users btw.



What I'd personally like to see is ways to level without having to sacrifice limited-supply items for it.
Or at least not that many.
It's actually what keeps me from really considering it.
That and the problem that most things you get out of Alchemy aren't really worth what you have to put into them.
I can understand their reasoning that if you craft a cash item, it should cost a cash item, but most formulae ask for more cash items than the one you're getting in return.
Some of the Alchemy-only items also require cash items to craft them and the item quality doesn't really make up for that.


Sorry for the late reply. I've been really busy. For that reason I'm not going to fully detail the leveling process. Not enough time, and there's also the fact that I did most of my leveling prior to the new cache system and that changes the deal somewhat. I would probably have done things differently. (besides the exchange is constantly on the move so you have to shift along side it, what's good one day can be bad another)
The main idea being to chose the best craft cost to item cost ratio formula. Some of which have positive returns. And also keeping the following in mind:

1) With the current cache system you can make a cache, open it, and sell it (regardless of the bag you get) for at least as much as it cost you to craft. Theoretically, if you take your time you can make caches, open them, and sell them Ad vitam æternam until you get the bag you want. So components in that situation would only ever cost the price of crafting a cache. I'm not sure how long that will last for, but it's the situation as of today.
With that in mind, you can find even more profitable formulas, or at least you can fall even cost wise. Any grinding will help you reduce costs
2) Make caches for your first two levels, if you keep the above in mind and have your leveling planned out you can use this to help you. If not you can always make roughly 1.5m selling them. Or more if you grind some components. That's something you can deduct from your overall leveling cost.
3) Offer your services. Regardless of your level. Don't just make a thread, there are plenty of components for bigger formulas that need crafting (on almost any level). Be pro-active about it and go find people who may need to craft these. Ask them how much they'd be willing to buy them off of you or ask them if they'd let you craft them. In the first case you can probably be competitive/appealing/-make a margin- if you go by 1) and 2) , in the second case keep in mind that their crafting rate will be superior to yours so they may be willing to pay the first attempt but not the others. Just make sure you fall on your feet gold wise if you screw up a few attempts.
This can get you some experience for little to no cost.
4) The more diversity in formulas you have on a level, the better. It'll keep you from inflating prices on components you need.

I didn't do any of the above and I went relatively fast. I also didn't know much about alchemy so I'm pretty sure I made poor choices along the way. Now I didn't calculate prices for the higher levels yet but it cost me roughly 15.5m to get to lvl 8. And 5m of that was me grinding through lvl3 with faust bottles when prices were higher. I reckon you could cut that level down in half. So who knows if you actually took your time.
Also lvl 8-9 aren't that expensive so it's not like it blows in your face after that.

All this said and done, there are a few issues with formulas currently, but I believe Lanzer said they were on it at one of the AtAs so it's hopefully only temporary.
The 10-15m range was also backed by constipated trillionaire I believe.

Last but not least I'm going to go over your limited item question. I'm not sure what exactly it is you're calling limited. Are we talking about any RIG item? Yes you will need to use some up in your leveling, there's no denying that, but these are re-released regularly. Or at least the MP seems to be getting new batches regularly which is kind of the same at this point.

PS: I did hold a leveling journal where I detailed what I was going to do + the prices I thought it would cost me at the time. When I have the time to update that with actual costs and stuff I'll send it your way.
rocbouguet's avatar

Business Entrepreneur

Hopefully we'll see more changes before Alchemy's one year anniversary.
I have to admit I am confused as to why only some of the component boxes were changed. I think that they should apply the new changes (easier crafting cost, and an element of choice) to all the component box items.

Perhaps there could be a choice to get a bag with just formulas, even? there's a lot they could do to balance this out and make it better.
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Anjoulie's avatar

Magnetic Phantom

_Trock_

Sorry for the late reply. I've been really busy. For that reason I'm not going to fully detail the leveling process. Not enough time, and there's also the fact that I did most of my leveling prior to the new cache system and that changes the deal somewhat. I would probably have done things differently. (besides the exchange is constantly on the move so you have to shift along side it, what's good one day can be bad another)
The main idea being to chose the best craft cost to item cost ratio formula. Some of which have positive returns. And also keeping the following in mind:

1) With the current cache system you can make a cache, open it, and sell it (regardless of the bag you get) for at least as much as it cost you to craft. Theoretically, if you take your time you can make caches, open them, and sell them Ad vitam æternam until you get the bag you want. So components in that situation would only ever cost the price of crafting a cache. I'm not sure how long that will last for, but it's the situation as of today.
With that in mind, you can find even more profitable formulas, or at least you can fall even cost wise. Any grinding will help you reduce costs
2) Make caches for your first two levels, if you keep the above in mind and have your leveling planned out you can use this to help you. If not you can always make roughly 1.5m selling them. Or more if you grind some components. That's something you can deduct from your overall leveling cost.
3) Offer your services. Regardless of your level. Don't just make a thread, there are plenty of components for bigger formulas that need crafting (on almost any level). Be pro-active about it and go find people who may need to craft these. Ask them how much they'd be willing to buy them off of you or ask them if they'd let you craft them. In the first case you can probably be competitive/appealing/-make a margin- if you go by 1) and 2) , in the second case keep in mind that their crafting rate will be superior to yours so they may be willing to pay the first attempt but not the others. Just make sure you fall on your feet gold wise if you screw up a few attempts.
This can get you some experience for little to no cost.
4) The more diversity in formulas you have on a level, the better. It'll keep you from inflating prices on components you need.

I didn't do any of the above and I went relatively fast. I also didn't know much about alchemy so I'm pretty sure I made poor choices along the way. Now I didn't calculate prices for the higher levels yet but it cost me roughly 15.5m to get to lvl 8. And 5m of that was me grinding through lvl3 with faust bottles when prices were higher. I reckon you could cut that level down in half. So who knows if you actually took your time.
Also lvl 8-9 aren't that expensive so it's not like it blows in your face after that.

All this said and done, there are a few issues with formulas currently, but I believe Lanzer said they were on it at one of the AtAs so it's hopefully only temporary.
The 10-15m range was also backed by constipated trillionaire I believe.

Last but not least I'm going to go over your limited item question. I'm not sure what exactly it is you're calling limited. Are we talking about any RIG item? Yes you will need to use some up in your leveling, there's no denying that, but these are re-released regularly. Or at least the MP seems to be getting new batches regularly which is kind of the same at this point.

PS: I did hold a leveling journal where I detailed what I was going to do + the prices I thought it would cost me at the time. When I have the time to update that with actual costs and stuff I'll send it your way.

Wah, that wasn't late at all. I'm patient, no worries. ^^

Making caches is what I've mostly been doing until now. I mean, I could just make Orb Aggregates to be level 3 but I'm not in any hurry - and didn't have much of a plan about what to do from 3 onwards.
I'm probably very slow in making them, though, because the only things I've been buying (for now) are the formulae, pancakes and bait.

I've already thought about 3), just haven't made a thread yet or asked people whether I can craft their components for them.
(Should you need to craft components from level 2 or 3, I'd be happy to do that ^^)


The limited item thing wasn't really a part of the question. It was rather directed in the general direction of staff who reads along. It's not really RIG items that are the problem, even though not all of them are re-released as much as they're destroyed it seems, but rather non-RIG cash shop items.
Alchemy had a noticeable impact on some of those already, the Wedding Doves or Heartstrings or the Trick or Treat Tote come to mind.

Generally, having to destory multiple items to make one item doesn't really sit right with me, especially when it's an item that I only made for the purpose of leveling.
I'd like for Alchemy to be a little more self-sustained, I think.
Unfortunately, all the formulae that go with this idea (component formulae and Fausto's Bottle) currently seem to be on the expensive side.
I do hope they'll come up with a solution for the case that's sort of what they did with the cache.
Then I'd consider making some of those too.
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Say, has there been any word on whether the changes made to the Cache will be made to the GMG and Case? I don't think any data needs to be looked at to know that it was a resounding success, unless it wasn't?
Rizuzua's avatar

Man-Hungry Healer

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Sweet Talk Tether
Say, has there been any word on whether the changes made to the Cache will be made to the GMG and Case? I don't think any data needs to be looked at to know that it was a resounding success, unless it wasn't?


What do you mean by that? Are you referring to the GMG/Case being split up into lvl 1-10 with metals instead of gemstones or something?

That would make alchemy directly usable and take the chance and downgrade it so people can finally choose what they want...imho.
Almandaragal's avatar

Jeering Gaian

Alright, so, the new jeweled caches have been out awhile, I've seen enough data to feel able to make the suggestions I've had stewing in my mind since their release.

As a note, this suggestion post will be number/code/math heavy to some extent. My suggestion is to make a potential effort based route for the new jeweled caches. Just bear with me here, as I do believe this is pretty balanced.

So, first off...

Base Cache is this:

Quote:
Formula 1: Philosopher's Cache
Crafting Cost: 2500 gold
Success Rate: Very Low

x10 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image

x5 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image

And then depending on which option you pick:

x50 of all common bugs

OR

x50 of all flowers

OR

x50 all paper trash

This results in a generic Philosopher's Cache, which is a RIG bag with slanted rarity. Earlier this week I had some time around work to take a look at the trends and such for the various jeweled caches that come from the normal Cache now, and this is what I found:

Quote:
Data taken at about 11 PM Pacific on May 8th.

A normal cache is currently going for Average Buy Price: 183,916g -2%

Other Caches:

Philosopher's Cache: Sapphire (Any) Average Buy Price: 117,338g -2%
Philosopher's Cache: Emerald (Any) Average Buy Price: 112,694g -2%
Philosopher's Cache: Amethyst (Any) Average Buy Price: 130,444g -0%
Philosopher's Cache: Topaz (Any) Average Buy Price: 138,242g -3%
Philosopher's Cache: Garnet (Any) Average Buy Price: 158,198g -11%
Philosopher's Cache: Ruby (Any) Average Buy Price: 160,975g -4%

Philosopher's Cache: Aquamarine (Any) Average Buy Price: 226,060g -1%
Philosopher's Cache: Diamond (Any) Average Buy Price: 243,332g -2%

Philosopher's Cache: Gold (Any) Average Buy Price: 596,277g -1% (Note that the average increased from 500k before starting to level out again)
Philosopher's Cache: Platinum (Any) Average Buy Price: 1,590,780g -8% (Not a very large sample, but the trend has been somewhat stable at 1.2 mil+)

This leaves us with 3 main groups: The jewels that are cheaper than the base cache, the jewels that are around the same price or slightly higher than the base cache, and the jewels that are far more expensive than the base cache. Arguably there could be 4 groups, since Gold and Platinum have a huge price gap, but I'll get to that later.

Based on the above data, which suggests that the lower priced ones were more common (and the number of listings backs this up, along with commentary I've read around the forums), I have a suggested set of formulas based on effort. The guaranteed result that you want does not come without a bit of a price though, as you'll see.

Suggestions for the first group

The following formulas would be sold in Bifrost:

Formula 1: Philosopher's Cache: Sapphire
Formula 1: Philosopher's Cache: Emerald
Formula 1: Philosopher's Cache: Amethyst
Formula 1: Philosopher's Cache: Topaz
Formula 1: Philosopher's Cache: Garnet
Formula 1: Philosopher's Cache: Ruby

Formula Cost: 20,000 gold

Formula Requirements:

Quote:
Formula 1: Philosopher's Cache: Jewel (Sapphire / Emerald / Amethyst / Topaz / Garnet / Ruby)
Crafting Cost: 10,000 gold
Success Rate: Very Low

x8 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image

x4 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image

And then depending on which option you pick:

x40 of all common bugs

OR

x40 of all flowers

OR

x40 all paper trash

The idea is that there is a higher initial gold cost and higher crafting cost with the same low success rate, but a slight decrease in the requirements. As these caches are the most common from a base Philosopher's Cache, they are worth less, and thus would cost a bit less in terms of components. However, since you get a direct choice, the gold cost increases to compensate.


Suggestions for the second group

The following formulas would be sold in Bifrost:

Formula 2: Philosopher's Cache: Aquamarine
Formula 2: Philosopher's Cache: Diamond

Formula Cost: 30,000 gold

Formula Requirements:
Quote:
Formula 2: Philosopher's Cache Jewel (Aquamarine / Diamond)
Crafting Cost: 15,000 gold
Success Rate: Very Low

x10 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image

x5 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image

And then depending on which option you pick:

x50 of all common bugs

OR

x50 of all flowers

OR

x50 all paper trash

The idea here being that since these prices are around the base Philosopher's Cache prices, the rarity isn't too high, but they aren't as common as the other jewels. As such, the requirements in terms of basic game items is the same, but the gold cost is increased both in formula price and crafting cost. Additionally, the formula requires level 2 in order to craft it.


Suggestions for the third group

This is going to come in two parts/suggestions due to the obvious difference in rarity. I'm just lumping them in the same group because they are both far out of the league of the other jewels.

The following formulas would be sold in Bifrost:

Formula 3: Philosopher's Cache: Gold
Formula 4: Philosopher's Cache: Platinum

Formula Costs:
Formula 3: Philosopher's Cache: Gold - 40,000 gold
Formula 4: Philosopher's Cache: Platinum - 50,000 gold

Formula Requirements:

Formula 3: Philosopher's Cache: Gold
Formula 3: Philosopher's Cache: Gold
Crafting Cost: 20,000 gold
Success Rate: Very Low

x12 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image

x6 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image

And then depending on which option you pick:

x60 of all common bugs

OR

x60 of all flowers

OR

x60 all paper trash

Like with the last two, this increments up. The gold cost to even purchase the formula is higher, as is the crafting cost. Additionally, all of the game item requirements are 120% of what the base Philosopher's Cache requirements are. It also requires that you be at level 3 to craft. Not only does this mean one has to level up a little to get to this point, but it also creates a grindable formula to get past a level that is currently way, way skewed compared to subsequent ones in terms difficulty to level through.

Formula 4: Philosopher's Cache: Platinum
Formula 4: Philosopher's Cache: Platinum
Crafting Cost: 30,000 gold
Success Rate: Very Low

x15 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image
User Image User Image User Image User Image User Image

x10 of the following:
User Image User Image User Image

And then depending on which option you pick:

x75 of all common bugs

OR

x75 of all flowers

OR

x75 all paper trash

Finally, the Platinum Cache formula. With a formula cost of 50k and a crafting cost of 30k, one would spend a minimum of 80k gold to craft this, compared to the 7.5k for a base Philosopher's Cache. It is also deemed level 4, so one would have to break past the level 3 barrier (still a feat even with my proposed Gold cache formula) to even try. Additionally, all game item requirements are either 150% or 200% of the requirements of the base Philosopher's Cache. It's doable via effort, but it requires a fair bit more (as well as a lot more gold) to do. While gold is involved, it's not the singular reason for success as the entire system is currently. This makes it a possible feat, but not something you can do in the blink of an eye.

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