۞✦ Alchemy: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly. ✦۞

[l Chihiro-chan l]

carbonphyber

I think you give the artists entirely too little credit for Gaia's success thus far. How well/poorly every item ever released on the site has done is a direct benefit/failure of the work of our talented artists. They have learned through trial-and-error and long experience what works.

Some of the artists are among the most experienced users on the site.

I don't see how you came to the conclusion that she isn't crediting artists enough. Isn't it apparent enough to anyone reading this thread that a driving force behind why people are interested in Gaia to begin with is the items? She's saying she's concerned about the concept of this feature and all of it's aspects (e.g. what items are being made craftable, how this makes the users feel, how the feature will affect the CS income). By stating that the CS is a crucial form of income, she is in essence crediting the artists for the site's success.

Artists may very well be experienced users; I won't deny that they know what appeals to users in an aesthetic sense, it's a part of their job. I will however stand by Angel in her statement that people who are more business savvy should in the very least be consulted in this endeavor. Just because they've been users for a long time, or worked hard on items doesn't mean they have any grasp of things from an economic standpoint. For all anyone knows it's entirely possible that they could look at an item and not see past how appealing they think it would be to users. I don't think you can honestly say in good faith that all artists follow the economic trends on here in terms of the Exchange or MP; they are most likely far too busy spending their time creating things for users to enjoy.

[cookie_pirate_sora506]

[~. As an aspiring artist, I'm a little insulted. Even I took Econ 101 in high school, in one of those sucky states none the less. I know the basics of how supply and demand works, and I could guess this was gonna mess up the markets. I think the details werew just poorly planned, by who ever came up with it. Shutting up now.

Right on all other points.
pirate .~]

[Fayalite]

To quote something I saw in another thread:

Fayalite

Krovahn

And Persephone is ridiculously Priced.

This, actually made me feel better about my persephone worth. *laughs* It won't go down as much as I thought it might. So all that questing I did for it the normal way didn't go to waste. ^_^

Those items aren't super easy to come by. Now yes, it's going to go down some, because of more becoming available AND because of speculation, but I don't think it's going to devistate the economy as much as is being implied. If anything it brings the "worth" of the items being used up alittle.
I like that they are giving users another route of achieving higher end items, and items that were released in RIGS anyways at that.

Also, please to take note of how much it costs to TRY using the recipe. 350k. That's a big chunk of pure right there that will be sunk into the system if it succeeds. And if it fails, the user has to buy another recipe and spend ANOTHER 350k to try again. The way I see it, the pure cost of items may go down, but that pure gold is going to start being worth more.

Now, Personally, I would like to see LESS of these rare item recipes floating around. Keep the recipe rare to match the rarity of the item itself idea. xd

[Knights Jester]

Fayalite

To quote something I saw in another thread:
-snip-

Those items aren't super easy to come by. Now yes, it's going to go down some, because of more becoming available AND because of speculation, but I don't think it's going to devistate the economy as much as is being implied. If anything it brings the "worth" of the items being used up alittle.
I like that they are giving users another route of achieving higher end items, and items that were released in RIGS anyways at that.

Also, please to take note of how much it costs to TRY using the recipe. 350k. That's a big chunk of pure right there that will be sunk into the system if it succeeds. And if it fails, the user has to buy another recipe and spend ANOTHER 350k to try again. The way I see it, the pure cost of items may go down, but that pure gold is going to start being worth more.

Now, Personally, I would like to see LESS of these rare item recipes floating around. Keep the recipe rare to match the rarity of the item itself idea. xd

♪★♪

I've bolded that particular part because it's inflation. Gaia doesn't need inflation. In fact, they've been trying to fix inflation for nearly 2 years now.
Maybe inflation doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but imagine an item you really want suddenly jumps to an obnoxious price just because it's the ingredient for a formula. Oh, sorry, did you want to pay the past 200k for x item? Well, that really sucks for you, because it's now a lot more what you were hoping to pay--and what it used to be.

So yes, this system does have a relatively huge impact on the economy. And it's unfair to people with less.

♪★♪

[Prue]

Knights Jester

Fayalite

To quote something I saw in another thread:
-snip-

Those items aren't super easy to come by. Now yes, it's going to go down some, because of more becoming available AND because of speculation, but I don't think it's going to devistate the economy as much as is being implied. If anything it brings the "worth" of the items being used up alittle.
I like that they are giving users another route of achieving higher end items, and items that were released in RIGS anyways at that.

Also, please to take note of how much it costs to TRY using the recipe. 350k. That's a big chunk of pure right there that will be sunk into the system if it succeeds. And if it fails, the user has to buy another recipe and spend ANOTHER 350k to try again. The way I see it, the pure cost of items may go down, but that pure gold is going to start being worth more.

Now, Personally, I would like to see LESS of these rare item recipes floating around. Keep the recipe rare to match the rarity of the item itself idea. xd

♪★♪

I've bolded that particular part because it's inflation. Gaia doesn't need inflation. In fact, they've been trying to fix inflation for nearly 2 years now.
Maybe inflation doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but imagine an item you really want suddenly jumps to an obnoxious price just because it's the ingredient for a formula. Oh, sorry, did you want to pay the past 200k for x item? Well, that really sucks for you, because it's now a lot more what you were hoping to pay--and what it used to be.

So yes, this system does have a relatively huge impact on the economy. And it's unfair to people with less.

♪★♪

And the quantity of said items is completely ridiculous. :/ It came up before with how many shoes are required (in the 100 millions worth) to make one pair of alchemy shoes.

The artists just threw random numbers and figured, "hey, why not!"

This thread isn't created solely because some items can and will deflate (as you've pointed out, some will massively INFLATE), that's simply one point of many. I wish people would stop focusing on snippets of the OP, it takes the point I was trying to make out of context.

[l Chihiro-chan l]

Fayalite

Those items aren't super easy to come by. Now yes, it's going to go down some, because of more becoming available AND because of speculation, but I don't think it's going to devistate the economy as much as is being implied. If anything it brings the "worth" of the items being used up alittle.
I like that they are giving users another route of achieving higher end items, and items that were released in RIGS anyways at that.

Also, please to take note of how much it costs to TRY using the recipe. 350k. That's a big chunk of pure right there that will be sunk into the system if it succeeds. And if it fails, the user has to buy another recipe and spend ANOTHER 350k to try again. The way I see it, the pure cost of items may go down, but that pure gold is going to start being worth more.

Now, Personally, I would like to see LESS of these rare item recipes floating around. Keep the recipe rare to match the rarity of the item itself idea. xd

I cut that quote down so it's a bit less huge. xD

I understand where people are coming from when they point out how ridiculous the formulas seem, but I've said it before and I'll say it again- even if one of these RIG exclusive rares is created; how do you think that makes the people feel who dumped all of their savings (be it RL money or Gold) into buying RIGs? If that's not a slap in the face, I don't know what is.

Not to mention that this opens doors to people possibly opting to craft things (no matter how insane the requirements may be) instead of investing in RIGs when they come out. If that causes even one RIG sale to not happen, it's still a negative impact on the site.

Not everyone views 350k at 50% (or at whatever the odds of any item is) as a major risk; and it's entirely possible that people will just craft things to increase their level as it may be beneficial to do so in the long run.

[Knights Jester]

Angel in a Bottle

♪★♪

I honestly am more bothered by the sheer amount of people thinking that some of this is "pocket change" to a lot of people. Or the amount of people who simply don't care about inflation at all (though I'm sure they would should an item they want be one to inflate).

I, for one, would rather give 1m to a friend than use it trying to make an item. And that 1m isn't "pocket change" to me, no matter how much pure or how many items I have just because it can be given to someone and be considered a lot.

♪★♪

[Radpops]

Quote:

Or better yet, the concept that users can just decide to create the ONE item they wanted out of the rig, and completely disregard the whole thing?

While I think the feature has some tweaking to do, there is a lot of potential as far as obtaining Rig items.
And yes, there are people who disregard RIG items because of the chance factor. I don't think it is smart to buy a bunch of RIG items hoping to get that one item, mainly because of the variance involved. So why shouldn't people have the option to obtain these items in other ways?
If they could make the ingredients buy-able with Gaia cash (as well as marketplace), then everyone's happy.

[Knights Jester]

Radpops

Quote:

Or better yet, the concept that users can just decide to create the ONE item they wanted out of the rig, and completely disregard the whole thing?

While I think the feature has some tweaking to do, there is a lot of potential as far as obtaining Rig items.
And yes, there are people who disregard RIG items because of the chance factor. I don't think it is smart to buy a bunch of RIG items hoping to get that one item, mainly because of the variance involved. So why shouldn't people have the option to obtain these items in other ways?
If they could make the ingredients buy-able with Gaia cash (as well as marketplace), then everyone's happy.

♪★♪

Unfortunately, buyable on the marketplace commonly means that the item has limited availability. That drives up prices, and then many people are not happy.
Gold shop, yes. Cash shop, whatever (I personally cannot afford cash at all). Limited availability items (past CS items, RIG items, etc.), no.

♪★♪

[Radpops]

Knights Jester

Radpops

Quote:

Or better yet, the concept that users can just decide to create the ONE item they wanted out of the rig, and completely disregard the whole thing?

While I think the feature has some tweaking to do, there is a lot of potential as far as obtaining Rig items.
And yes, there are people who disregard RIG items because of the chance factor. I don't think it is smart to buy a bunch of RIG items hoping to get that one item, mainly because of the variance involved. So why shouldn't people have the option to obtain these items in other ways?
If they could make the ingredients buy-able with Gaia cash (as well as marketplace), then everyone's happy.

♪★♪

Unfortunately, buyable on the marketplace commonly means that the item has limited availability. That drives up prices, and then many people are not happy.
Gold shop, yes. Cash shop, whatever (I personally cannot afford cash at all). Limited availability items (past CS items, RIG items, etc.), no.

♪★♪

Yes that is incredibly dumb, considering so many people want to make the items, and the ingredient items themselves lose their own personal value and are thought of as a part for a "better" item. That is the aspect that needs tweaking.

[Ayame Howl]

Xx_Juicy_Juice_xX

Get rid of it all together i say talk2hand

I'd be inclined to agree with this if they can't revamp it to make it at least reasonable.

[Prue]

Radpops

Knights Jester

Radpops

Quote:

Or better yet, the concept that users can just decide to create the ONE item they wanted out of the rig, and completely disregard the whole thing?

While I think the feature has some tweaking to do, there is a lot of potential as far as obtaining Rig items.
And yes, there are people who disregard RIG items because of the chance factor. I don't think it is smart to buy a bunch of RIG items hoping to get that one item, mainly because of the variance involved. So why shouldn't people have the option to obtain these items in other ways?
If they could make the ingredients buy-able with Gaia cash (as well as marketplace), then everyone's happy.

♪★♪

Unfortunately, buyable on the marketplace commonly means that the item has limited availability. That drives up prices, and then many people are not happy.
Gold shop, yes. Cash shop, whatever (I personally cannot afford cash at all). Limited availability items (past CS items, RIG items, etc.), no.

♪★♪

Yes that is incredibly dumb, considering so many people want to make the items, and the ingredient items themselves lose their own personal value and are thought of as a part for a "better" item. That is the aspect that needs tweaking.

No, it's perfectly normal for a fail rig item to be hitting 600-700k >>;

http://www.gaiaonline.com/marketplace/itemdetail/45481

[Fayalite]

Knights Jester

Fayalite

To quote something I saw in another thread:
-snip-

Those items aren't super easy to come by. Now yes, it's going to go down some, because of more becoming available AND because of speculation, but I don't think it's going to devistate the economy as much as is being implied. If anything it brings the "worth" of the items being used up alittle.
I like that they are giving users another route of achieving higher end items, and items that were released in RIGS anyways at that.

Also, please to take note of how much it costs to TRY using the recipe. 350k. That's a big chunk of pure right there that will be sunk into the system if it succeeds. And if it fails, the user has to buy another recipe and spend ANOTHER 350k to try again. The way I see it, the pure cost of items may go down, but that pure gold is going to start being worth more.

Now, Personally, I would like to see LESS of these rare item recipes floating around. Keep the recipe rare to match the rarity of the item itself idea. xd

♪★♪

I've bolded that particular part because it's inflation. Gaia doesn't need inflation. In fact, they've been trying to fix inflation for nearly 2 years now.
Maybe inflation doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but imagine an item you really want suddenly jumps to an obnoxious price just because it's the ingredient for a formula. Oh, sorry, did you want to pay the past 200k for x item? Well, that really sucks for you, because it's now a lot more what you were hoping to pay--and what it used to be.

So yes, this system does have a relatively huge impact on the economy. And it's unfair to people with less.

♪★♪

I'm not saying that it doesn't impact the economy, I just don't think it's as bad as it's being painted.
People who have the item, that if they wish to sell, can sell for more than previously. Those who don't have it, yes will have to pay more, but it still falls back on the principle of supply and demand. If people aren't buying it, then the sellers are going to eventually put it up for less if they still want to sell it. Right now, yes, the economy is wacky, and going to be for a bit. I don't think the price jump of the items is going to stay for that long, there are enough people who will want to buy something else that will put the items up for cheaper eventually. So the items will inflate some yes due to being used up, but the majority should result in deflation of the crafted items, just not as drastic of a deflation as this thread makes it sound.
The items used up will hopefully also have more releases of them in the future also.
As for you're example, that item I really wanted, and wanted to pay the old price for, I either wait for it to go back down to that price, or I work, as I have been, to achieve the new price.
While I agree it's not perfect, I think this system was made to try to help people with less, or to help people who can't gather millions of gold at a time. As long as everyone and their brother isn't trying to get formula item A which uses item B, then there is still a chance that the user with less can still get item B for a fair price once the market settles back down, I would say hopefully for near the previous price.
Meanwhile, those who are the "haves" of the item B can rejoice that they can sell item B for more to perhaps work towards something else that they want.
There are things I have and things I don't have in the recipies. The things I don't have, I plan to take the wait and see approach, cause I don't think the inflation will be too horrible.
I accept and admit that I could be wrong about it, but I'm saying so could the viewpoint of this being an utter disaster be wrong... It might only be a hiccup.

Edit: And I do agree that I would have preferred gold shop items to be used too, instead of these limited items. Since they included the items to be used, I would only think (or at least hope) they plan on a replacement plan of those items into the system. If nothing else, it's a kink in their plan that they didn't forsee.

[l Chihiro-chan l]

Knights Jester

♪★♪

I honestly am more bothered by the sheer amount of people thinking that some of this is "pocket change" to a lot of people. Or the amount of people who simply don't care about inflation at all (though I'm sure they would should an item they want be one to inflate).

I, for one, would rather give 1m to a friend than use it trying to make an item. And that 1m isn't "pocket change" to me, no matter how much pure or how many items I have just because it can be given to someone and be considered a lot.

♪★♪

I agree with you about whole inflation concept. Take the Persephone example; some of the items needed to make that are already pretty expensive to your average user on this site. It makes me feel terrible to think that someone could have been trying really hard to save up for one of the smaller items (such as the Spring Bride), and now will be very unlikely to ever reach their goal due to the high prices that Alchemy induced inflation is going to bring about. The whole system just shows a real lack of foresight on Gaia's part.

As I said earlier; this could have been an amazingly fun feature if it was gone about the right way. I would have loved to see Alchemy only make new items genuine to the feature that were created with just gold shop items, or maybe even a few CS related crafting items if they were really looking to gain revenue through this feature.

[Solnya the Second]

Ok, so I was just thinking, you need rig items to create the rig...
Thinking about Valefor...
Valefor uses 10 brooms then that's 10 rig singles that have been purchased and opened to get those 10 brooms. So if all bar one comes from a bundle then that's 1149gc Gaia gets or if it's all purchased as singles then that's 1491gc Gaia gets for you to make the bundle right? So how does this decrease the sales of the Valefor rig itself? Gaia's going to get much more gc from people crafting because someone has to buy the RIG itself before anything can happen...

But I think that crafting RIG's while a good idea because it helps control the absurd prices for high end RIG items which are ridiculously high, should be done using items you craft from items that are permanently available from the cs, and the current RIG should not be available for crafting.
Eg
10gc per raw ingredient -> 5 raw ingredients +5k per crafted ingredient (50k for 10)-> 10 crafted rig ingredient +20k -> RIG
=> Price for old RIG 500gc + 70k of gold from during crafting, 351gc more then what its price was when on sale and you're spending 25k in the making of it too... As well as this, you could make the raw or crafted RIG ingredients soulbound so that you can't just buy them really cheap from the market place ie for 1g each and then make it for 70k...