۞✦ Alchemy: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly. ✦۞

[Coupler]

Shintouyu

Basically...
This could all have been avoided if Gaia only introduced and used new items in/for the recipes instead of requiring past items.

Agree 100%

[lisa likes your face]

If they made most of the ingredients gold shop items, it would be a fantastic gold sink. I'm trying to make the sad rainbow ice cream, which requires a sad mint ice cream. Last I checked, there's one in the marketplace, going for 4 million. (Though they might only have been released just now, I dunno, I never noticed them before).

I think it's a great idea that would be a lot of fun, but it's just executed really poorly.

[l Chihiro-chan l]

CleoSombra

Actually, crafting the RIG is more expensive than just buying it straight from the market. At least, that's how it is with Valefor, which calls for ten Evergreen brooms - the lowest I saw was 15k. Why would anyone spend 150k+ for an item that's 75k in the market?

In order for the recipes to be useful, the RIGs have to be really, really, really old, to the point that an individual RIG is worth more than the items needed to craft it. Additionally, becomes the RIGs are gone, the items needed to craft them are in limited supply. Once the RIG is gone, there will only be so many Evergreen brooms and whatnot in existence. If there are 30 floating in the market, that's enough to make just three Valefor's.

So exactly how is that not unbalanced? Once all of the existing brooms are bought up, then users cannot continue to make the recipe. If I go with your example of 30 being in the market, that's only enough for three RIGs. Even if all three of those RIGs turned out to be Evergreen Brooms, the cycle wouldn't be able to continue, as it takes 10 to complete the recipe in the first place.

This thread isn't simply to complain about the crafting system in general, but also how poorly thought out and unbalanced it seems.

CleoSombra

Not exactly. The lay-offs had more to do with reshaping the staff than with cutting back. Positions were ended in some areas and opened up in others (source). In the beginning of February, just two months after the layoffs, Gaia was "hiring like crazy."

It was actually a layoff brought about by the economic condition at the time (source). They had to drop a good deal of conventions on the convention tour due to low income. They had also laid off DJ Helsing for a short period of time as well, then later rehired him when things were in better shape. I wouldn't exactly say we've recovered fully from that just yet as far as the economy in the USA goes. Who's to say it couldn't happen again? Gaia's sales directly translate to how many people they can afford to employ at any given time. Therefore if users start to feel discouraged in terms of using the cash shop, it would impact their payroll.

[Tussies]

Angel in a Bottle - I agree with everything you have written. They should definitely not make old RIG items/EI's craftable like this.
It sure is a slap in the face to the people who spent months questing for those items. At least, that's how I feel.

[NothingGold]

I like the idea of alchemy. I'd be more excited if the new items were made by using items you can buy in shops, plus the random components from daily chance and giftboxes. There would still be difficulty from the new components, but the Chance Items that were already expensive wouldn't sky rocket.

I hate that they give us no say in what happens on the site when they will have such large effects. They didn't even ease it in to see how it would take.
And really there is nothing we can do to change what has already been done. Kelly the Whipped Creamarian will now be millions away from me. emo

[Opera Phantomess]

Masquerade! Paper faces on parade. Masquerade!

As it stands, even crafting high-end RIG items is next to impossible anyway seeing as how you have to level up before you get them, and leveling up is extremely hard with needing items people are now hoarding that are in very limited supply.

I agree with you, though, that this whole thing was planned worse than the lowest bidder would to construct a building. It makes me wonder what in hell those that planned it were thinking or doing at the time things were laid out. I would not be surprised if this caused more people to keep their money to themselves and/or just up and leave the site. This was a bad move and if not remedied correctly, will cause Gaia to slide down that slippery slope to bankruptcy even quicker than ever before.

Hide your face so the world will never find you.

[A Fallen Virtue]

I suppose I'm in the minority, since I actually love the fact that you can craft RIG items. They probably don't have a high success rate if they were big-ticket ones, so I personally don't think there's anything to get upset about. The more that saturate the market, the better. Gaia was getting ridiculous with their uber-rares, anyway.

[Prue]

A Fallen Virtue

I suppose I'm in the minority, since I actually love the fact that you can craft RIG items. They probably don't have a high success rate if they were big-ticket ones, so I personally don't think there's anything to get upset about. The more that saturate the market, the better. Gaia was getting ridiculous with their uber-rares, anyway.

Honestly, who cares about the success rate when it's only a few thousand gold? It's not like you lose the items. The fail rate is almost irrelevant for 90% of the items.

[l Chihiro-chan l]

Shadow Coon II

Until we learn more about the Alchemy feature and what it'll even cost to make these high-priced items, any sort of judgement would be considered jumping the gun. For all we know, it'll cost a hefty amount of gold in supplies, perhaps a few hundred thousand for the attempt, and have a low success rate to boot. If that were the case, calling them a 'mass rerelease' or 'handing them out on a silver platter' would be a stretch, to say the least.

Perhaps I'm a weird case in all of this, since I don't view buying items with cash as an investment. For me, I buy and keep items because I want them. If the hat on my head suddenly became worth 10k, it wouldn't have any bearing on how I felt about it as an item, Gaia as a business, re-releases, or anything like that.

At the end of the day, I think finding a way to compromise is important, but pleasing the majority is crucial for Gaia as a business. Most users love re-releases of great items and if they can handle this in a decent fashion, it would be best for mostly everyone and moderately bothersome for the rest.

I don't see it as jumping the gun; I see it as noticing a disturbing issue and wanting to n** it in the bud before it spirals out of control. From the recipes that they've released already it IS safe to say that all of the things are going to cost a good deal to make. One can easily surmise that from simply looking at the low level items. Here's a prime example:
Nomy the Snail
-Cirque du Junkfood x1
-Double Complete Rainbow x3
-Sherbet x1
-Cutin x1
- 1k

So who's to say the formulas won't be so ridiculous that users won't care to try to craft them?
Angel wasn't even proposing that it would be similar to a handout; she stated that if any of these craftable items are made, it can directly impact the income of the Cash Shop, and thus affect Gaia as a whole. She was also illustrating how unbalanced and poorly thought out this whole system is; which I agree with completely. I don't think it makes much sense to use the fact that it's unbalanced to justify the concept of them re-releasing any items from older rigs for the same reason.

While you may not see items as investments, a great deal of Gaia does. The whole concept of the economy on this site is a major interest to quite a few people. I'm not saying you're view on things is wrong, I'm just pointing out that other people may feel differently.

You can't really look at an issue like this and decide how beneficial it would be just by thinking of how happy the users will be at the end of the day. I'm sure users would be happy if everyone was given the new RIG pet; but how do you think that would impact Gaia's sales? Happy users =/= the well being of Gaia as a whole. Much more than happiness goes into the equation when it comes to keeping this site up and running. I can't honestly agree with such a short sighted goal, like making items easier to get when I know their rarity is a driving factor in what helps fund the site and keep it online. If Gaia suffers in terms of funding because of this poorly thought out feature, the whole site will suffer in the long run. Without funding we can't pay as many devs, admins, or artists. The Cash Shop is a major source of what keeps this alive and growing. By looking out for their own economic interest, Gaia IS essentially pleasing it's users by continuing to be new and exciting.

[A Fallen Virtue]

Angel in a Bottle

A Fallen Virtue

I suppose I'm in the minority, since I actually love the fact that you can craft RIG items. They probably don't have a high success rate if they were big-ticket ones, so I personally don't think there's anything to get upset about. The more that saturate the market, the better. Gaia was getting ridiculous with their uber-rares, anyway.

Honestly, who cares about the success rate when it's only a few thousand gold? It's not like you lose the items. The fail rate is almost irrelevant for 90% of the items.

The fact that there is one at all should make those ever-so-precious RIG items retain some of that value that some people just can't live without having.

[Prue]

A Fallen Virtue

Angel in a Bottle

A Fallen Virtue

I suppose I'm in the minority, since I actually love the fact that you can craft RIG items. They probably don't have a high success rate if they were big-ticket ones, so I personally don't think there's anything to get upset about. The more that saturate the market, the better. Gaia was getting ridiculous with their uber-rares, anyway.

Honestly, who cares about the success rate when it's only a few thousand gold? It's not like you lose the items. The fail rate is almost irrelevant for 90% of the items.

The fact that there is one at all should make those ever-so-precious RIG items retain some of that value that some people just can't live without having.

Umm how so? Like I said, the cost to actually make the recipe is minimal and is usually less than a percent of any of the ingredients used in even making it.

How on earth would this make any of the items retain their value?

[l Chihiro-chan l]

A Fallen Virtue

I suppose I'm in the minority, since I actually love the fact that you can craft RIG items. They probably don't have a high success rate if they were big-ticket ones, so I personally don't think there's anything to get upset about. The more that saturate the market, the better. Gaia was getting ridiculous with their uber-rares, anyway.

l Chihiro-chan l

CleoSombra

Actually, crafting the RIG is more expensive than just buying it straight from the market. At least, that's how it is with Valefor, which calls for ten Evergreen brooms - the lowest I saw was 15k. Why would anyone spend 150k+ for an item that's 75k in the market?

In order for the recipes to be useful, the RIGs have to be really, really, really old, to the point that an individual RIG is worth more than the items needed to craft it. Additionally, becomes the RIGs are gone, the items needed to craft them are in limited supply. Once the RIG is gone, there will only be so many Evergreen brooms and whatnot in existence. If there are 30 floating in the market, that's enough to make just three Valefor's.

So exactly how is that not unbalanced? Once all of the existing brooms are bought up, then users cannot continue to make the recipe. If I go with your example of 30 being in the market, that's only enough for three RIGs. Even if all three of those RIGs turned out to be Evergreen Brooms, the cycle wouldn't be able to continue, as it takes 10 to complete the recipe in the first place.

This thread isn't simply to complain about the crafting system in general, but also how poorly thought out and unbalanced it seems.

As I said above; the whole system is broken and poorly thought out. RIGs won't be saturating the market because of this. Once the items it requires are bought out, it will slowly cease to be possible; as the ingredients outnumber the possible winnings from the RIG.

[Shadow Coon II]

l Chihiro-chan l

I don't see it as jumping the gun; I see it as noticing a disturbing issue and wanting to n** it in the bud before it spirals out of control. From the recipes that they've released already it IS safe to say that all of the things are going to cost a good deal to make. One can easily surmise that from simply looking at the low level items. Here's a prime example:
Nomy the Snail
-Cirque du Junkfood x1
-Double Complete Rainbow x3
-Sherbet x1
-Cutin x1
- 1k

So who's to say the formulas won't be so ridiculous that users won't care to try to craft them?
Angel wasn't even proposing that it would be similar to a handout; she stated that if any of these craftable items are made, it can directly impact the income of the Cash Shop, and thus affect Gaia as a whole. She was also illustrating how unbalanced and poorly thought out this whole system is; which I agree with completely. I don't think it makes much sense to use the fact that it's unbalanced to justify the concept of them re-releasing any items from older rigs for the same reason.

While you may not see items as investments, a great deal of Gaia does. The whole concept of the economy on this site is a major interest to quite a few people. I'm not saying you're view on things is wrong, I'm just pointing out that other people may feel differently.

You can't really look at in issue like this and decide how beneficial it would be just by thinking of how happy the users will be at the end of the day. I'm sure users would be happy if everyone was given the new RIG pet; but how do you think that would impact Gaia's sales? Happy users =/= the well being of Gaia as a whole. Much more than happiness goes into the equation when it comes to keeping this site up and running. I can't honestly agree with such a short sighted goal, like making items easier to get when I know their rarity is a driving factor in what helps fund the site and keep it online. If Gaia suffers in terms of funding because of this poorly thought out feature, the whole site will suffer in the long run. Without funding we can't pay as many devs, admins, or artists. The Cash Shop is a major source of what keeps this alive and growing. By looking out for their own economic interest, Gaia IS essentially pleasing it's users by continuing to be new and exciting.

I think that example kind of backs the point that the expense of crafting items at all will end up surpassing that of just buying the item straight from the market, thus having little to any effect on the item's market in a deflation sense. The worth of, let's say, a Shibuya Nobody (thus its position as an investment) won't really be affected negatively if it the item's current market worth is 5mil and the cost to craft it ends up being 8mil+.

If the Alchemy system stays as it currently is, users are going to be smart enough to realize that spending money on RIGs and just letting chance decide whether or not they get the item will be the better investment, so Gaia's not looking at losing much (if any) money over this feature.

[Daffodil the Destroyer]

I'm afraid I'm not yet at the point of being too terribly reasonable about this, nor do I have the mental energy to type up a totally new post... so I'm going to paste in what I wrote in a guild and maybe come back tomorrow to participate more wholeheartedly.

They've released this with next to no communication, so we don't know if they plan to fix the massive market ******** they've just caused. All the recipe component items are disappearing from the market and aren't being replaced - and if I know anything about greedy Gaia members, then it's probably because people are buying them up and stockpiling them so that they can artificially inflate them. As of now, they've left us to deduce that the decent, common RIG items are going to disappear and the rares are going to turn into angelic halo status. This entire thing, as it stands, is completely unreasonable. This isn't comparable to a "quest" system at all; it's more like a cruel joke. There aren't any level 1 recipes the average Gaian can even use, save the starter one. All of the level 1 recipes should be attainable for everyone and they shouldn't even start approaching "keep dreaming" status until the highest levels.

This seemed really cool for about two minutes, until I bought a recipe for Edwardian loafers and realised that it was impossible to get any ingredients because they were either GONE from the market completely or were priced way higher than they're worth. They could've used zOMG drops, aquarium junk (octopi, Leviathan s**t, Demon s**t), and stuff that we're constantly getting out of Daily Chance and Dumpster Dive. They could've used gold shop items as a really effective gold sink. They could've done a lot of things to make this not suck... and it's their bad for releasing this in a manner that causes mass rage and panic without explaining their plans (if they exist) to keep these items in circulation. Even if they come back tomorrow and explain everything to everyone's satisfaction, they had to have seen that this manner of release would spark a massive upset in their userbase. So either I'm wrong and they didn't anticipate it going so horribly wrong so quickly, or they just don't care about causing such turmoil, or they're doing it for the lulz?

This pressed my rage button so hard that instead of actually getting angry or raging, I went straight to "********." It's been a LONG time since anything on Gaia has come anywhere close to having this effect on me. It's been hard to find the energy and concern to type up the few feedback posts I've already made about this, and I think I'm drained for the night. Maybe I'll be up for better discussion about it tomorrow; this was just a really unpleasant shock to me. I usually would be one of the people advocating the "wait and see" mindset, but in this case I really think there's no excuse for them to cause what looks like a catastrophe in the marketplace without giving us any indication as to whether and/or how they plan to fix it so that this feature is actually usable.


So anyway, this was my gut reaction. Maybe tomorrow it will be tempered some.

[Knights Jester]

♪★♪

The idea on its own was good.
However, when they touched upon basically mass rereleasing old items, I realized something. RIGs and EIs will probably become rather steady--their natural inflation rate won't be that great anymore.

However, what about MCs? Because hoarders no longer have EIs or RIGs to fall on, what will happen? I suspect AI caused solely because it's the only thing that isn't being mass-rereleased. If there's only one item that looks like it definitely won't be rereleased, then that's what people will start buying up.

That on its own is something that doesn't sit well with me. We had a pretty terrible case of mass-inflation in the market about 2 years ago. This just feels like it's going to repeat--only with MCs being driven to ridiculous prices.

tl;dr: Good idea, but it very well may ******** up the economy they were trying to fix.

If this was something created to generate more cash in their wallet, I'm seriously disappointed.

♪★♪