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Violence Among Men is Tolerated, Accepted, and Encouraged.
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Extended Discussion
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Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:40 am
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Syndactyly Lupin_Therian Who is Remy....?
___________________________________________________________
;~; -Clings to Dan's side-
___________________________________________________________
 Any more questions? Scary, right?
This is why I don't make threads in ED much. I can have a very sound first post and instead of agreeing with me or providing respectful counterarguments people lose their ******** marbles.
Part of the problem, from what I can tell, is that the term "violence" is so broad. There's no doubt that some types of violence are considered socially acceptable while others are not, and when the topic of violence comes up, people will jump to whichever definition fits their view best, regardless of whether that's what the original discussion is about.
So just for clarification's sake, since I figure you get this already:
Society tends to approve of consensual violence (eg: anything that involves two guys beating the crap out of each other for entertainment), while holding that non-consensual violence is only appropriate within fictional environments. This division tends to be implied rather than explicit.
Problems arise when we expect these neat little compartmentalizations to remain separate. Media is one of the main sources from which we learn about the world around us, and when the media constantly tells us that "men are violent," that's what we learn. The divisions between types of violence are less prominent than the general message that violence and aggression = masculinity.
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Violence Among Men is Tolerated, Accepted, and Encouraged.
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Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:20 am
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Hepzeba DysPerDis Sparatcus Violence in men is suppressed, detested and disencouraged. Welcome to the 2000s, the 1980s are back that way.
We're dealing with a modern society where pacifism is revered and the being a hot guy means being about as effeminate as you can without physically surrendering your d**k.
Prize fighting, cigars and women in designer clothing will continue to be chic in New York, Boston and Chicago. wink
Wrestling and monster trucks are more for the midwesterners who are looked down upon by the elite. You know the same person who cannot stand to watch Sarah Palin in an interview with Bill O'Reilly. blaugh
Hey, don't you be dissing monster trucks! wink
But yeah, different groups tend to prefer different types of violence. Still, when you get down to it, a couple of guys beating the crap out of each other is a couple of guys beating the crap out of each other, whether it's in a skeazy back alley or in a ring surrounded by high society, and whatever level you're at, there's always someone who's pushing it as the epitome of masculinity.
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Violence Among Men is Tolerated, Accepted, and Encouraged.
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Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:59 am
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Sparatcus Violence in men is suppressed, detested and disencouraged. Welcome to the 2000s, the 1980s are back that way.
We're dealing with a modern society where pacifism is revered and the being a hot guy means being about as effeminate as you can without physically surrendering your d**k.
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Your genitals do not matter?
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Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:51 am
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Regarding disclosure...
1. Trans people face massive risks if we disclose that we're trans to others.
The Transgender Day of Remembrance website lists over 100 individuals who were murdered in 2009 due to transphobic violence. These are, of course, just the ones we know about.
As reported by GLSEN, trans students are often exposed to and/or the targets of transphobic violence and harassment,
The majority of US states do not have laws which protect trans people from discrimination in areas of housing and employment.
Trans people are often characterized by others as not really members of the gender they identify as, perverts, mentally ill, freaks, liars, etc...
So why, then, should we open ourselves up to discrimination, harassment, and violence, simply so that cis people can avoid the embarrassment of having a crush on someone with the wrong bits?
2. Expecting someone to provide details about their genitalia on demand... well, it's rather invasive, isn't it?
I mean, while I think it's something that should be addressed before you get naked, that doesn't mean it needs to be the first thing out of a person's mouth when they meet someone they like, either, especially given point #1.
Regarding transition...
Yep, for many trans people, it's a medical necessity.
Briefing note I: The level of distress associated with Gender Identity Difficulties Professor Green wrote: “..prior to gender identity clinics being common place, suicide rates among desperate people who wanted treatment for their gender identity disorder were high.“ (p203) “The anguish and despair and inability to function psychosocially for the transsexual is profound and devastating.“ (p203) “The consequences to an individual of gender identity disorder can be at least as disruptive as schizophrenia.“ (p205)
Professor Gooren wrote: “what I have experienced in my professional career is that … there is a misjudgement of the misery of patients with gender problems. One of the serious obstacles to understanding gender dysphoria is that it is an unimaginable and inconceivable problem to those who do not have it … I always let transsexuals present their life histories and no one in the audience leaves the room unmoved by the deep suffering and misery that gender problems engender.“ He suggests that a possible comparison is with males with gynaecomastia or females with deep voice and male hair patterns.” (pp306-7)
Dr Reid wrote: “Obtaining treatment for Gender Identity disorder is… absolutely fundamental to the person’s identity, health and well being. Without treatment the gender dysphoria suffered by many patients is so severe that there is a significant risk of self mutilation and suicide. p338
Many trans people- including those who haven't undergone genital surgery- can live stealth without others noticing that they're trans. This means that it's pretty much impossible to know whether that guy or girl you're crushing on was born with the parts you'd assume they have, unless you have in-depth knowledge of their personal history.
Regarding discussions of trans issues in general...
If you use any of these techniques, prepare to have people assume that, yes, you are a bigot.
The same goes for statements which reflect the idea that trans men aren't really men, or trans women aren't really women. |
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Your genitals do not matter?
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Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:29 am
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Jumping in here...
Alright, so first: Binary assumptions of attractive/unattractive traits don't work. Instead, lets' go with the idea that any trait can be considered a turn-on (let's call them attracting traits), a turn-off (call 'em repelling traits) or neither (neutral traits). In most cases, people desire relationships with those who's attracting traits considerably outweigh the repelling traits. And of course, there's a whole spectrum regarding how attractive or unattractive a person might find a trait.
If a person finds the genitals typical of one sex to be a repelling trait, then genitals probably do matter to that individual- though if they find an individual attractive enough in other regards to make up for the presence of the repelling trait, there's still the possibility of a relationship forming.
If they consider them a neutral trait, however, you can often take this off the table as a deciding factor. When the trait moves from the realm of neutral to repelling, the requirements for other attracting traits become higher in potential partners.
For example, a gay man who isn't turned on by vag's, but doesn't find them to be a libido killer, either, may become involved in a pre-op trans man because he finds him attractive overall. A gay man who finds vag's to be slightly repelling, but considers a trans man to be massively attractive otherwise may also consider that trans man to be a potential partner.
Second: The conflation of sex and gender by the OP makes my eye twitch.
Third: Self identification is based on- you guessed it- a person's own consideration of themselves as straight/gay/bi/pan/asexual/whatever. It involves identification within a group, and has both individual and interpersonal components. Self-identification may not perfectly match sexual attraction. That doesn't mean that other people have the right to deny a person's self identification.
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Should homosexuals be legally allowed to Adopt? Vote.
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Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:49 am
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junglejade @DysPerDis: Bravo. Nice support and sources.
Danke. By the way, did you skip from 6 to 8 on purpose in that list?
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Should homosexuals be legally allowed to Adopt? Vote.
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Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:39 am
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junglejade Edited:
Five Typical Reasons AGAINST it
1. To grow up to be well-balanced adults, children need role models of both sexes. For example: Boys without fathers under-achieve, especially since there are now fewer male teachers in primary schools. lists numerous studies on children of LGBT parents.
Otherwise, why not see what the good ol' APA has to say?
Quote: In summary, there is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth. Quote: 2. We are mostly a 'Christian' country (USA) - even if few go to church, our values remain based on Christian teaching. Two parents are axiomatic - 'Honour thy father and mother', invokes the Fifth Commandment. The laws created by God > laws created by man. Treaty of Tripoli Article 11 Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;
See also: The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
Quote: 3. People claim we need gays to adopt children, but we have plenty of married heterosexuals who are willing to adopt.
4. It’s a myth that hard-to-place children would have no other option. Groups like Adopt America (1-800-246-1731 or adoptamerica@aol.com) have hundreds of married couples who are willing to take even HIV-positive children. There is NO NEED for homosexuals to adopt children.
Let's look at some numbers:
According to the previously linked page:
FY 2002 Children eligible for adoption: 134,000 Children adopted: 53,000
FY 2003 Children eligible for adoption: 131,000 Children adopted: 51,000
FY 2004 Children eligible for adoption: 131,000 Children adopted: 52,000
FY 2005 Children eligible for adoption: 130,000 Children adopted: 52,000
FY 2006 Children eligible for adoption: 129,000 Children adopted: 51,000
FY 2007 Children eligible for adoption: 130,000 Children adopted: 51,000
Quote: There are about 129,000 children waiting for adoptive families in the United States foster care system. From Adoptuskids.org
Quote: How many foster children are eligible for adoption each year?
The number varies from year to year, however over the past several years, the number of children in foster care who were legally free for adoption has been over 100,000. From Adoption.com
Quote: 5. The children will grow up with a harder life. Homosexual parents, unlike Interracial parents, will never be accepted, so the children will always have problems.
Prove it.
Quote: 6. Homosexuals are more likely to molest their children. That is why they are not allowed to adopt ~ that is why there are sodomy laws in some states.
Absolute bullshit. Studies have shown that heterosexually identified men are the group most likely to molest children. For example:
Quote: Results. Abuse was ruled out in 35 cases. Seventy-four children were allegedly abused by other children and teenagers less than 18 years old. In 9 cases, an offender could not be identified. In the remaining 269 cases, two offenders were identified as being gay or lesbian. In 82% of cases (222/269), the alleged offender was a heterosexual partner of a close relative of the child. Using the data from our study, the 95% confidence limits, of the risk children would identify recognizably homosexual adults as the potential abuser, are from 0% to 3.1%. These limits are within current estimates of the prevalence of homosexuality in the general community.
Conclusions. The children in the group studied were unlikely to have been molested by identifiably gay or lesbian people. [ Source]
Quote: 8. Growing up with homosexual parents will make the child homosexual. Homosexuals breed more homosexuals. They should not corrupt children.
Just like growing up with heterosexual parents will make a child heterosexual? Oh, wait...
Seriously, where's your supporting evidence?
1. Prove that God exists
2. Prove that, if God did exist, xe would oppose adoption by gay parents.
Quote: 10. Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Except in areas where it's also between a man and a man or a woman and a woman.
Quote: Only married people should adopt.
Prove it.
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Thanks for the support, now PLEASE stop talking
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Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:10 pm
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Olya  We all meandered through our schooling haphazard; so, to God be thanks,
Oh please! Frank Burns deserved every wisecrack that came his way!
Come to think of it, so do a lot of people in ED.
...it's easy, without too much fooling, to pass for cultured in our ranks.
I figured that particular quote was fitting biggrin
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Thanks for the support, now PLEASE stop talking
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Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:08 pm
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soul_less_human Controlled by these sweet phantasms, from my five fingers blooms my melody...
The sound of a crimson, I tease and gouge them deep into the neck...
It's happening again... it's so fun... so fun...
(So sweet! So sweet!! )
Just report and move on. 
If the person is irritating enough, get a non-existent Mod.
(So red! So red!!)
Finally my wish... it's so fun... so fun...
The tone of screams coming from your desiccating throat, the melody that becomes a rainbow of vermilion...
This hue from slaughtering you, what a sweet deep color it releases!
Like I said earlier, I'm not talking solely about ED- I'm talking about pretty much any area in which debate occurs, particularly when public opinion will affect the outcome.
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