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forum:59, topic:41452067
this was an idea I came up with while noticing something odd about thermal changes. As you all know when a substance changes in temperature it's volume also changes. Normally we think about thermal energy in terms of loss - that is to say, burning fossil fuels and boiling water to turn turbines.

What I'm proposing is actually a very slow cycle.

As a planet rotates, the surface temperature changes from radiation variations of sun exposure. Like clock work, the surface experience shifts in pressure.

The temperature to expansion ratio of different substances - such as quartz, aluminum, and water, are all different. They are so different, in fact, that hydraulic systems could be constructed using them.

A giant plate of one substance sandwiched between another can form pressure. This pressure can then be transformed into electrical energy in a variety of ways, or even stored in a capacitor, supercapacitor, or flywheel.

Such a process could also be used for large rotating satellites, or even desert engineering projects on Earth.
 
     
Whatever
 
OR YOU COULD USE NUCLEAR ENERGY. THATS A PRITTY TITS ENERGY SOURCE RIGH THER. DEFYING LAWS IS ALWAYS COOL.
     
Interesting idea
But i would like to ask you how you would turn that pressure into useable energy.

As far as i know you can't generate energy from two things laying on top of each other that way (Depending on the material that is)
they would have to clash together
 
     
"The day i see an elven jedi pwns a demonic necromancer and his infernal robot army with"The Spork of Might" i can die happily" - dixieboy

"That is why you fail" - Yoda
 
"dixieboy"
Interesting idea
But i would like to ask you how you would turn that pressure into usable energy.

As far as i know you can't generate energy from two things laying on top of each other that way (Depending on the material that is)
they would have to clash together


If the volumetric thermal expansion coefficient (VTEC) of the "filling" is higher than the the VTEC of the shell, then like a burrito in the microwave, the shell will experience pressure as the stuff inside it expands. Normally a burrito package pops in the microwave, I'm suggesting the expansion be used for piezoelectric generation, or for something more simple, pistons and a very heavy flywheel with a gearing similar to a bicycle (so it continues to spin even if the piston stops or reverses).

Several materials can be both strong and rigid - such as quartz and and tungsten, in comparison to their contained substances - such as aluminum or lead.
     
Whatever
"Michael Noire"
"dixieboy"
Interesting idea
But i would like to ask you how you would turn that pressure into usable energy.

As far as i know you can't generate energy from two things laying on top of each other that way (Depending on the material that is)
they would have to clash together


If the volumetric thermal expansion coefficient (VTEC) of the "filling" is higher than the the VTEC of the shell, then like a burrito in the microwave, the shell will experience pressure as the stuff inside it expands. Normally a burrito package pops in the microwave, I'm suggesting the expansion be used for piezoelectric generation, or for something more simple, pistons and a very heavy flywheel with a gearing similar to a bicycle (so it continues to spin even if the piston stops or reverses).

Several materials can be both strong and rigid - such as quartz and and tungsten, in comparison to their contained substances - such as aluminum or lead.


Seems like the moons' gravitational pull effecting the earth's water would make a more reliable, constant, and more powerful enrgy source than thermal expansion from solar energy. It makes the water kind of work like a cam, with the pinnacle following the moon on its orbit around the earth. Imagine if you took a massive mothballed ship, anchored a generator to the bottom of some bay somewhere, parked the boat over it, and attatched a drive shaft to the boat and the flywheel turning the generator. As the tide goes out, tons of ship pushes down on the shaft powering the wheel, and as the tide comes in, the bouyancy of the hull pulls the whole thing back up against gravity.

Not sure I was able to describe that well enough. xp
 
     
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PM's and comments rock. As if you didn't know that already. rolleyes
 
"Michael Noire"
this was an idea I came up with while noticing something odd about thermal changes. As you all know when a substance changes in temperature it's volume also changes. Normally we think about thermal energy in terms of loss - that is to say, burning fossil fuels and boiling water to turn turbines.

What I'm proposing is actually a very slow cycle.

As a planet rotates, the surface temperature changes from radiation variations of sun exposure. Like clock work, the surface experience shifts in pressure.

The temperature to expansion ratio of different substances - such as quartz, aluminum, and water, are all different. They are so different, in fact, that hydraulic systems could be constructed using them.

A giant plate of one substance sandwiched between another can form pressure. This pressure can then be transformed into electrical energy in a variety of ways, or even stored in a capacitor, supercapacitor, or flywheel.

Such a process could also be used for large rotating satellites, or even desert engineering projects on Earth.


an interesting idea. piezos operate on the principle that distorting certain non-symmetric crystalline lattice will induce a charge difference within the unit cell, and on a macroscopic level an electric field and/or voltage within the material. since the electric field is proportional to the distance between the + & - charge (and hence the displacement and therefore strain) it follows that relatively large amounts of strain are necessary to generate an appreciable amount of voltage. since most material's CTEs are on the order of 1-10 ppm/degreeC, the temperature difference in the surface of a planet will likely induce negligible amounts of strain (thus voltage) during the course of a day. to be viable as an energy source, your piezo material (say quartz) would have to be a very large & continuous material that experienced very large amounts of strain, which is probably not feasible for the situation you've described. good brainstorm, though!
     
"lindseyk"
"Michael Noire"
this was an idea I came up with while noticing something odd about thermal changes. As you all know when a substance changes in temperature it's volume also changes. Normally we think about thermal energy in terms of loss - that is to say, burning fossil fuels and boiling water to turn turbines.

What I'm proposing is actually a very slow cycle.

As a planet rotates, the surface temperature changes from radiation variations of sun exposure. Like clock work, the surface experience shifts in pressure.

The temperature to expansion ratio of different substances - such as quartz, aluminum, and water, are all different. They are so different, in fact, that hydraulic systems could be constructed using them.

A giant plate of one substance sandwiched between another can form pressure. This pressure can then be transformed into electrical energy in a variety of ways, or even stored in a capacitor, supercapacitor, or flywheel.

Such a process could also be used for large rotating satellites, or even desert engineering projects on Earth.


an interesting idea. piezos operate on the principle that distorting certain non-symmetric crystalline lattice will induce a charge difference within the unit cell, and on a macroscopic level an electric field and/or voltage within the material. since the electric field is proportional to the distance between the + & - charge (and hence the displacement and therefore strain) it follows that relatively large amounts of strain are necessary to generate an appreciable amount of voltage. since most material's CTEs are on the order of 1-10 ppm/degreeC, the temperature difference in the surface of a planet will likely induce negligible amounts of strain (thus voltage) during the course of a day. to be viable as an energy source, your piezo material (say quartz) would have to be a very large & continuous material that experienced very large amounts of strain, which is probably not feasible for the situation you've described. good brainstorm, though!


1. while most materials are X, some materials are Y.
2. the pressure available is not a measure of weight per square meter, but the combined weight of all surface area and volume that changes over a large area of exposure.

Since this source of energy is free (planetary rotation/solar powered) and the pressure can be distributed via hydraulic systems over enormous areas and concentrated, the pressure attainable is several thousand times what you might imagine it to be.

It's similar to the principle of stone excavation used by ancient people in temple construction: you add water to a bunch of logs, believe it or not, they expand with such force over time as to crack monolithic stones.
 
     
Whatever
 
"Michael Noire"

1. while most materials are X, some materials are Y.
2. the pressure available is not a measure of weight per square meter, but the combined weight of all surface area and volume that changes over a large area of exposure.

Since this source of energy is free (planetary rotation/solar powered) and the pressure can be distributed via hydraulic systems over enormous areas and concentrated, the pressure attainable is several thousand times what you might imagine it to be.

It's similar to the principle of stone excavation used by ancient people in temple construction: you add water to a bunch of logs, believe it or not, they expand with such force over time as to crack monolithic stones.


hmm. last time i checked, the scientific definition of pressure is force per unit of area - no reference needed, check any statics/physics/engineering textbook. not quite sure where you're going with this...

sure, the whole logs + water = expansion thing works, but that's primarily due to repeated freezing/melting of the water. there is a huge (>>ppm) volume change when water crystallizes into ice, and it is this expansion that will cause most of the damage. in addition, the CTE of water is 3 orders of magnitude larger than most quartz-like ceramics or anything you'd find in the earth. this means that a change in temperature will cause a volumetric expansion of water 2-3x that of any piezoelectric material. perhaps you could explain these "hydraulic systems" you mentioned so that i could better understand how thermal expansion of a crystalline material (again, typically around 10^-6 ppm/degreeC) could be translated into several thousand times the pressures i'm estimating based on these innate physical properties.
     
"lindseyk"
"Michael Noire"

1. while most materials are X, some materials are Y.
2. the pressure available is not a measure of weight per square meter, but the combined weight of all surface area and volume that changes over a large area of exposure.

Since this source of energy is free (planetary rotation/solar powered) and the pressure can be distributed via hydraulic systems over enormous areas and concentrated, the pressure attainable is several thousand times what you might imagine it to be.

It's similar to the principle of stone excavation used by ancient people in temple construction: you add water to a bunch of logs, believe it or not, they expand with such force over time as to crack monolithic stones.


hmm. last time i checked, the scientific definition of pressure is force per unit of area - no reference needed, check any statics/physics/engineering textbook. not quite sure where you're going with this...

sure, the whole logs + water = expansion thing works, but that's primarily due to repeated freezing/melting of the water. there is a huge (>>ppm) volume change when water crystallizes into ice, and it is this expansion that will cause most of the damage. in addition, the CTE of water is 3 orders of magnitude larger than most quartz-like ceramics or anything you'd find in the earth. this means that a change in temperature will cause a volumetric expansion of water 2-3x that of any piezoelectric material. perhaps you could explain these "hydraulic systems" you mentioned so that i could better understand how thermal expansion of a crystalline material (again, typically around 10^-6 ppm/degreeC) could be translated into several thousand times the pressures i'm estimating based on these innate physical properties.


i think you are missing the point. The purpose isn't to rely on the expansion of the crystals, but the expansion of a tertiary substance sandwiched between a more stable substance. Instead of using a steam coal engine, the objective is to use a solid or liquid subject to surface temperature changes.
 
     
Whatever