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Golden Dysprosium
This is the "science" in Marxism, which it touts ever so proudly.


I believe he gave a little more justification for some of his economic theories, but I will admit I am not well-versed in his work. Either way, I don't really care to worry about the details of Marxism right now. I believe I have clearly shown the answer to both, "Is Marxism a science?" and, "Is Marxism scientific?" If so, this topic has been answered and can finally die.

So does anyone dispute the negative answer to those questions? I think my breakdown covered everything well enough, but I would be glad to expound upon anything that isn't clear.
 
     
 
Golden Dysprosium

Quote:
For example if we advanced computer technology to the point where social scientists could make predictions with 99% accuracy (higher then that of some physical/astronomical theories) and they proposed various theories or laws based on this, it would still be considered unscientific because these are pre-defined as "soft sciences".

No, it would. The trick with social sciences is that it isn't as "solid" as, say, medicine. Things like social trends and public attitudes change, while things like lactic acid production in anaerobic respiration generally stay the same (barring some grand evolution, obviously); it's merely how we look at it that changes.


But some facets of medicine are not understood, take the disease Fibromanglia.

Likewise some social events can have so much social force/inertia behind it that it can be very certain. Take the centralization of capital. That has generally occurred, world wide, in every society, almost without exception.

Golden Dysprosium
Quote:
Or if not unscientific then less scientific then say Grand Unified Theories in physics, even though these physical theories do not have a level of predictive certainty reaching anywhere near 99%.

Way to set an arbitrary, arguably unrealistic standard. neutral
At any rate, the economic ideas you've credited to Marx are not his, nor are they original, let alone his own. The political/philosophical aspects are (approproately) acreditted to him, which is how Marxism/communism/socialism is defined. It is not a "priori categoization", but rather a universally recognized definition, based on the qualities something exhibits. The only real point Marx makes in economics is that it should be monitored, which is really just common sense.


Why is the standard arbitrary and unrealistic? You stated pretty blankly that "hard" sciences, are always more certain then "soft" sciences, now you are backtracking.

As for Marx's economic theories not being his own, again I urge you to read Capital. The law of centralization is his own. The organic composition model (the tendency for constant to push out variable capital) is his own. And his updated labor theory of value has substantial differences from those of Ricardo. He also firmly established the process of how the relative value of wages tends towards decline, as well as how the idea of "compensation" is discredited.

As for his ideas, a lot of those you attribute to Marx, especially those of revolution are actually those of Lenin. And socialist thought existed long before Marx.

Quote:
The English word socialism (1839) derives from the French socialisme (1832), the mainstream introduction of which usage is attributed, in France, to Pierre Leroux,[12] and to Marie Roch Louis Reybaud; and in Britain to Robert Owen in 1827, father of the cooperative movement.[13][14] Although socialist models and ideas espousing common ownership have existed since antiquity with the classical Greek philosophers Plato and Aristotle[15], the modern concept of socialism evolved in response to the development of industrial capitalism. Early socialism was seen as an extension of classical liberalism by extending liberty and rights to the industrial economic aspect of life, so that these values were compatible with the then-emerging industrial society.

The first advocates of socialism favoured social levelling in order to create a meritocratic or technocratic society based upon individual talent. Count Henri de Saint-Simon is regarded as the first individual to coin the term socialism.[9] Simon was fascinated by the enormous potential of science and technology and advocated a socialist society that would eliminate the disorderly aspects of capitalism and would be based upon equal opportunities.[16] He advocated the creation of a society in which each person was ranked according to his or her capacities and rewarded according to his or her work.[9]

This was accompanied by a desire to implement a rationally-organised economy based on planning and geared towards large-scale scientific and material progress,[9] and thus embodied a desire for a more directed or planned economy. Other early socialist thinkers, such as Thomas Hodgkin and Charles Hall, based their ideas on David Ricardo's economic theories. They reasoned that the equilibrium value of commodities approximated to prices charged by the producer when those commodities were in elastic supply, and that these producer prices corresponded to the embodied labor — the cost of the labor (essentially the wages paid) that was required to produce the commodities. The Ricardian socialists viewed profit, interest and rent as deductions from this exchange-value.[17]

West European social critics, including Robert Owen, Charles Fourier, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Louis Blanc, Charles Hall and Saint-Simon, were the first modern socialists who criticised the excessive poverty and inequality of the Industrial Revolution. They advocated reform, with some such as Robert Owen advocating the transformation of society to small communities without private property.

Linguistically, the contemporary connotation of the words socialism and communism accorded with the adherents' and opponents' cultural attitude towards religion. In Christian Europe, of the two, communism was believed the atheist way of life. In Protestant England, the word communism was too culturally and aurally close to the Roman Catholic communion rite, hence English atheists denoted themselves socialists.[18]

Friedrich Engels argued that in 1848, at the time when the Communist Manifesto was published, "socialism was respectable on the continent, while communism was not." The Owenites in England and the Fourierists in France were considered "respectable" socialists, while working-class movements that "proclaimed the necessity of total social change" denoted themselves communists. This latter branch of socialism produced the communist work of Étienne Cabet in France and Wilhelm Weitling in Germany.[19]
Karl Marx

The Marxist conception of socialism is that of a specific historical phase that will displace capitalism and be a precursor to communism. The major characteristics of socialism (particularly as conceived by Marx and Engels after the Paris Commune of 1871), are that the proletariat will control the means of production through a workers' state erected by the workers in their interests. Economic activity is still organised through the use of incentive systems and social classes would still exist but to a lesser and diminishing extent than under capitalism.[20]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#Origins

Even the concept of bourgeoisie and proletariat is not unique to Marx. The proletariat originally referred to dispossessed member of City-States, like those of ancient Rome. And the term bourgeoisie became largely popularized by the French Revolution.

And Dialectical Materialism was more a product of Engels then Marx.

Marx's major contribution, even from a socialist perspective, lay in his cohesive, well researched economic analysis and hypothesis:

Quote:
It has become fashionable to think that Karl Marx was not mainly an economist but instead integrated various disciplines—economics, sociology, political science, history, and so on—into his philosophy. But Mark Blaug, a noted historian of economic thought, points out that Marx wrote “no more than a dozen pages on the concept of social class, the theory of the state, and the materialist conception of history” while he wrote “literally 10,000 pages on economics pure and simple.”1


http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Marx.htmlhttp://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Marx.html

Even by measurements of sheer quantity of work Marx was by far more an economist then a political activist.

A lot of the idea that Marxism is primarily concerned with economics actually comes from Lenin in his State and Revolution where the revolutionary preceded to cut economic science off from the Marxist movement because he believed Marx had failed to predict Imperialism.

Over time however I believe Marx has been vindicated and Lenin proven incorrect. Not only were his "three revolutions" that he used as the sole basis of his generalizations a small sample size, but he didn't even attempt a single quantitative analysis on any of them. Likewise, he himself was forced to abandon much of his theory with the New Economic Policy. Also the Soviet Union failed to achieve socialism (a point on which Lenin was ambiguous).

And much of the path towards socialism has been unpredicted by Lenin. For example, the JCP gains ground in Japan even though it uses democratic means (a point Lenin argued was impossible) and China is slowly becoming a proletariat, as opposed to peasant worker's state nation by its own economic development (Lenin argued this could only occur by linking up with an advanced industrialized proletariat. )

Also Cuba seems to be doing well too, even though it is isolated, much to the chagrin of Lenin, and modern studies of modernization with respect to political development seem to question much of Lenin's original assumptions. For example, democracy has on average become stronger in advanced nations, not weaker. Furthermore, many advanced nations have transformed into welfare states without need for a violent revolution (Lenin argued this was impossible due to workers being too caught up in the work-spend cycle to learn the intricacies of Marxist theory, and that this would be necessary to attain class consciousness. )

This is why it is important to distinguish between Marx's economic science, which was thoroughly researched, quantified and empirically tested, and his politics which were often presented more loosely and informally. This is even more important with respect to distinguishing between Marxism and Leninism.
     
Now you're just trolling. Pack up your dillusions and go home. but before you go, let's drive one more nail in:
Dermezel
Golden Dysprosium

Quote:
For example if we advanced computer technology to the point where social scientists could make predictions with 99% accuracy (higher then that of some physical/astronomical theories) and they proposed various theories or laws based on this, it would still be considered unscientific because these are pre-defined as "soft sciences".

No, it would. The trick with social sciences is that it isn't as "solid" as, say, medicine. Things like social trends and public attitudes change, while things like lactic acid production in anaerobic respiration generally stay the same (barring some grand evolution, obviously); it's merely how we look at it that changes.

But some facets of medicine are not understood, take the disease Fibromanglia.

I can't really understand it either as it DOESN'T EXIST.
Fibromyalgia, on the other hand, does. I know, because the name tells me exactly what it is (a muscle/CT disorder), and with that, I have a general understanding of how to treat it. Also:
Quote:
There are mounting data supporting comorbidity of fibromyalgia syndrome (FMS) and psychiatric conditions. These include depression, panic disorders, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The nature of the relationship between depression and FMS is not fully understood, and it was hypothesized that chronic pain causes depression, or vice versa, and that chronic pain syndromes are variants of depression. A link between PTSD symptoms and FMS has been reported, and both conditions share similar symptomatology and pathogenetic mechanisms. Assessment of comorbid psychiatric disorders in FMS patients has clinical implications because treatment in these patients should focus both on physical and emotional dimensions of dysfunction.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/9prh6pq326041877/
That there is scientifically sound; we've even created a classification system for it, and we can test for it as well, as we've studied the pathophysiology of it. Marxism doesn't meet that standard, and you haven't provided us with anything other than loose associations that you found on anarchist websites to support Marx's ideas.
 
     
 
Hey look, another debate over semantics!

Topic: Hey guys can I call <whatever> a <whatever>
Posts: No, yes, no, no, yes, etc...


You can call it what you will, that's the advantage of speaking a non dead language. You can stretch the meanings of words as you will. So yes, you can call Marxism a science.

You can call mechanics a science, you can call art a science. You can even call driving your car a science if you wish.
     
http://i42.tinypic.com/eiju69.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/qq8w3m.gif
zz1000zz
The question for this topic is, "Is Marxism a science?" I will flat out state the answer is, "No." I would contend the most meaningful alternative question is, "Is Marxism scientific?"


Do you think whether or not Marxism is a science or "scientific" is even that important of a distinction?

Can't I for example saying Darwinism is a "science", and is "scientific" and is a "theory"? Are those terms mutually exclusive?

zz1000zz
A science, in the sense used by scientists, is basically a system of acquiring knowledge via the scientific method. The word "science" also is used in reference to the knowledge gathered by the scientific method, but then it is "science," not "a science." To determine if Marxism is "a science," we ask ourselves:

Quote:
Is Marxism a system of acquiring knowledge via the scientific method?


The answer is obviously, "No." Marxism is not for acquiring knoweldge. It attempts to explain knowledge.


You just 100% begged the question. I mean do you have any empirical data to support this assertion? So far I have seen you present zero empirical data.

zz1000zz
Now I suggest we ask, "Is Marixsm scientific?" Scientific is defined as:

Scientific
of or pertaining to science or the sciences


It is possible Marxism could be scientific without being a science. Is Marxism a scientific theory? To understand what a scientific theory is, Wikipedia states:

Wikipedia
A theory, in the scientific sense of the word, is an analytic structure designed to explain a set of empirical observations.


Yeah you are just way exaggerating this distinction at this point. Words do overlap. Words are ambiguous. Arguing that Marxism is "scientific" but not a science is a pretty weak argument because even according to you the "scientific method" is what determines whether or not a given study is a science. Hence by saying Marxism is "scientific" and not a science what can you even mean? That it is "scientific" but does not follow a "scientific method"? That doesn't even sound coherent.

zz1000zz
Now then, from Wikipedia, there are three main parts to Marxism. For Marxism to be scientific, all three parts must be scientific. Any less, and Marxism merely uses science.


Wow, fallacy of composition.


zz1000zz
Rather than consider each of the three main parts, I look to the third:

Marxism
3. Advocacy of proletarian revolution — In order to overcome the fetters of private property the working class must seize political power internationally through a social revolution and expropriate the capitalist classes around the world and place the productive capacities of society into collective ownership. Upon this, material foundation classes would be abolished and the material basis for all forms of inequality between humankind would dissolve.


Marx does not provide "a set of empirical observations" for this point. He does not provide an "analytic structure" to support this point.


Way to take my arguments completely out of context. I noted at the beginning I was talking about his economics, not his politics.

zz1000zz
Marxism discussed economics. Perhaps there is some "scientific" validity to his points on that subject. However, Marxism as a whole is not a science, nor is it scientific. The most one can claim about Marxism is it uses science.


Again you are taking things out of context. Not only in the very first post of this thread did I note I was talking about his economics, but even according to volume of written and researched material Marx was primarily an economist. He wrote only a couple dozen pages on politics, he wrote "over 10,000 pages" on "pure economics."

I'm sorry, but your straw man arguments do not discredit Marx as a science.
 
     
 
Dermezel
I'm sorry, but your straw man arguments do not discredit Marx as a science.

Now Karl Marx himself is a science?
Quote:
I mean do you have any empirical data to support this assertion? So far I have seen you present zero empirical data.

False dichotomy. Your favorite game (aside from Moving the Goalposts).
"I think Marxism is a science/scientific/awesome"
"Here's some material I feel is empirical, and that will prove my point."
"Submit specific material to prove otherwise"

"you have not submitted the material I required you to. I have."
"My point is correct, thus Marxism is (whatever you think it is at this point)."

Or
Quote:
I noted that Marxism makes testable hypothesis, and that these hypothesis have been confirmed with the data. Furthermore I then provided mountains of reference to empirical data by which to support my conclusion. Clearly you do not determine science by empirical data if you do not realize that is already an answer.

There's about an essay worth of quotes for this, including
Quote:
I'm sorry, but your straw man arguments do not discredit Marx as a science.

Quote:
Over time however I believe Marx has been vindicated and Lenin proven incorrect.

Quote:
For example if we advanced computer technology to the point where social scientists could make predictions with 99% accuracy (higher then that of some physical/astronomical theories) and they proposed various theories or laws based on this, it would still be considered unscientific because these are pre-defined as "soft sciences". ...Or if not unscientific then less scientific then say Grand Unified Theories in physics, even though these physical theories do not have a level of predictive certainty reaching anywhere near 99%.

Quote:
But some facets of medicine are not understood, take the disease Fibromanglia Fibromyalgia.
Likewise some social events can have so much social force/inertia behind it that it can be very certain. Take the centralization of capital. That has generally occurred, world wide, in every society, almost without exception.

So, what is that exception? Can you prove that there's more behind Marxism than Fibromyalgia? Actually, forget it. I'm done here. Go back to the Politics forum where you belong, and take your "evidence" with you. neutral
     
Dermezel
Do you think whether or not Marxism is a science or "scientific" is even that important of a distinction?

Can't I for example saying Darwinism is a "science", and is "scientific" and is a "theory"? Are those terms mutually exclusive?


Something cannot be a "science" and a "theory," so no you cannot say that. Or rather, you can say that, but it is a stupid thing to say.

In any event, yes I think it is important to distinguish between "a science" and "scientific."

Demerzel
You just 100% begged the question. I mean do you have any empirical data to support this assertion? So far I have seen you present zero empirical data.


Empirical data is not needed for discussing definitions. If anyone questions the definitions I have used, they are welcome to ask after them. However, you cannot simply throw out definitions on the basis of them not being supported by observed evidence.

Or rather, you can do so, but it is a stupid thing to do.

Demerzel
Yeah you are just way exaggerating this distinction at this point. Words do overlap. Words are ambiguous. Arguing that Marxism is "scientific" but not a science is a pretty weak argument because even according to you the "scientific method" is what determines whether or not a given study is a science. Hence by saying Marxism is "scientific" and not a science what can you even mean? That it is "scientific" but does not follow a "scientific method"? That doesn't even sound coherent.


I never said Marxism was scientific. I said when considering possibilities, one has to allow for the possibility of it being scientific. You cannot me making a hypothetical statement, which I immediately show false, as me saying the hypothetical statement is true.

Or rather, you can, but it is stupid and dishonest.

Demerzel
zz1000zz
Now then, from Wikipedia, there are three main parts to Marxism. For Marxism to be scientific, all three parts must be scientific. Any less, and Marxism merely uses science.


Wow, fallacy of composition.


Before accusing someone of a fallacy, learn what the fallacy is. You cannot apply the fallacy of composition to what I said.

Or rather, you can but...

zz1000zz
Way to take my arguments completely out of context. I noted at the beginning I was talking about his economics, not his politics.


You cannot ask, "Is Marxism a science," then choose to only consider some parts of Marxism.

Or rather...

Demerzel
I'm sorry, but your straw man arguments do not discredit Marx as a science.


If this topic gets moved, are we going to see a new topic, "Is Karl Marx a science?"?

Anyway, I am done responding to you in this thread. Your behavior in it has been absurd and obscene. I can only hope you are a troll, because any other possibility is just too depressing.
 
     
Support terrorism.
Pay your taxes.
 
Golden Dysprosium

Marx employed what's known as "historical science" (more commonly known as histiography, or just history)



Roughly half of science is historical:

Quote:

Isn't evolution just an inference?

No one saw the evolution of one-toed horses from three-toed horses, but that does not mean that we cannot be confident that horses evolved. Science is practiced in many ways besides direct observation and experimentation. Much scientific discovery is done through indirect experimentation and observation in which inferences are made, and hypotheses generated from those inferences are tested.

For instance, particle physicists cannot directly observe subatomic particles because the particles are too small. They make inferences about the weight, speed, and other properties of the particles based on other observations. A logical hypothesis might be something like this: If the weight of this particle is Y, when I bombard it, X will happen. If X does not happen, then the hypothesis is disproved. Thus, we can learn about the natural world even if we cannot directly observe a phenomenon—and that is true about the past, too.

In historical sciences like astronomy, geology, evolutionary biology, and archaeology, logical inferences are made and then tested against data. Sometimes the test cannot be made until new data are available, but a great deal has been done to help us understand the past. For example, scorpionflies (Mecoptera) and true flies (Diptera) have enough similarities that entomologists consider them to be closely related. Scorpionflies have four wings of about the same size, and true flies have a large front pair of wings but the back pair is replaced by small club-shaped structures. If two-winged flies evolved from scorpionfly-like ancestors, as comparative.


http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6024&page=27

Keep in mind anthropology, paleontology, and cosmology are other, well established historical sciences.

Golden Dysprosium
to come up with his whole "class struggle" motiff. He spent a lot of time in the local library pouring through history books to find some common theme; according to Marxism, this is theme class struggle. That's right, the driving force behind humanity's social evolution is worker dis-satisfaction. This is ignorant at bes


Again:

Quote:
It has become fashionable to think that Karl Marx was not mainly an economist but instead integrated various disciplines—economics, sociology, political science, history, and so on—into his philosophy. But Mark Blaug, a noted historian of economic thought, points out that Marx wrote “no more than a dozen pages on the concept of social class, the theory of the state, and the materialist conception of history” while he wrote “literally 10,000 pages on economics pure and simple.”1


http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Marx.html
     
Golden Dysprosium

Now Karl Marx himself is a science?


Uh, if you are going to resort to those kinds of arguments you are obviously at the end of your rope.

Golden Dysprosium
Quote:
I mean do you have any empirical data to support this assertion? So far I have seen you present zero empirical data.
False dichotomy. Your favorite game (aside from Moving the Goalposts).


I have already stated that science is based on comparative standards. You seem to, by contrast, think science is absolute and hence limit yourself to either negative or pseudoscientific arguments (your quoting the Marginalist school and Ayn Rand. )


Golden Dysprosium
"I think Marxism is a science/scientific/awesome"
"Here's some material I feel is empirical, and that will prove my point."
"Submit specific material to prove otherwise"

"you have not submitted the material I required you to. I have."
"My point is correct, thus Marxism is (whatever you think it is at this point)."

Or
Quote:
I noted that Marxism makes testable hypothesis, and that these hypothesis have been confirmed with the data. Furthermore I then provided mountains of reference to empirical data by which to support my conclusion. Clearly you do not determine science by empirical data if you do not realize that is already an answer.


I really don't see what your argument is. Simply put I presented empirical data to verify Marx's hypothesis. You seem to think by dismissing my data as something I feel (an argument I never made) or something you don't personally accept (an argument anyone who doesn't want to accept any science can make) means my data is irrelevant.

I mean just consider:

"Here's some material I feel is empirical, and that will prove my point."

"Here's some material that is empirical, and that will prove my point."

Your entire argument is based on including the word "feel".

Golden Dysprosium
There's about an essay worth of quotes for this, including
Quote:
I'm sorry, but your straw man arguments do not discredit Marx as a science.

Quote:
Over time however I believe Marx has been vindicated and Lenin proven incorrect.

Quote:
For example if we advanced computer technology to the point where social scientists could make predictions with 99% accuracy (higher then that of some physical/astronomical theories) and they proposed various theories or laws based on this, it would still be considered unscientific because these are pre-defined as "soft sciences". ...Or if not unscientific then less scientific then say Grand Unified Theories in physics, even though these physical theories do not have a level of predictive certainty reaching anywhere near 99%.


The straw man arguments presented here are many. Mostly tying Marx's economic theories to his politics as a matter of necessity. As for Leninism being discredited, I have noted the reasons via modernity measurements and studies on collective violence. Last, my argument about computer projections of sociological data was to show the irrationality of your own declaration that physical sciences are more certain that social sciences no matter what.

Golden Dysprosium
Quote:
But some facets of medicine are not understood, take the disease Fibromanglia Fibromyalgia.
Likewise some social events can have so much social force/inertia behind it that it can be very certain. Take the centralization of capital. That has generally occurred, world wide, in every society, almost without exception.

So, what is that exception? Can you prove that there's more behind Marxism than Fibromyalgia? Actually, forget it. I'm done here. Go back to the Politics forum where you belong, and take your "evidence" with you. neutral


I think everyone knows certain facets of medicine are not fully understood. Certain cancers are not fully understood, certain diseases are not fully understood, certain brain diseases are not fully understood.

Again this is to counter your argument that the physical sciences are more certain then the social sciences no matter what. You really don't seem to have any basis for this claim to begin with. All you have done to argue this case is note that it is a belief in popular culture.

In fact, almost all your arguments against Marxism seem populist rather then scientific. You clearly see this as an ideological as opposed to a scientific issue. I mean, why else are you quoting Ayn Rand web sites?
 
     
 
XstraitedgeX
Ekeda
Can't people just accept that communism is wrong and Marx was a hack?


its not communism thats wrong its that the idea of it great but Russia thought they could skip everything and go to communism when in fact there is a cycle (Marx is the founder of it) that for communism or other economic ideals need to follow. also the corrupt leaders didn't help the communism ideal to hold up.

It goes (cant remember whats before capitalism exactly so i didn't include it)

--------&Capitalism will one say change to--------&socialism which one day become----------.Communism which again one day will sprout into an even greater ideal (Marx concluded it stopped there but i don't think it would since everything can be fixed in some way)



also to the whole central capitalism thing at this point in time no country is purly capitalism the US was the last pure capital country but once the government started to buy banks it became a blend of capitalism and socialism.


Actually, communism just...doesn't work. The pilgrims tried it with their first colony, in its purest form. "From each, according to his abilities, to each, according to his needs." It was a dismal failure, and the town starved as a result. Next year, they gave everyone a plot of land and told them to feed themselves. Guess what? Thanksgiving!

Everyone knows what happened to China and Russia, and though the argument can be made that it failed because they didn't follow the ideals of communism, the real reason it doesn't work is because it ignores human nature. When you take away profit motive, profit stops being generated.
     
*facepalm* please don't feed the troll. He thinks my sources come from an Ayn Rand site. rolleyes
Which is interesting because the majority of his come from Marxism.org; obviously, he never got the joke.
 
     
 
zz1000zz

Something cannot be a "science" and a "theory," so no you cannot say that. Or rather, you can say that, but it is a stupid thing to say.

In any event, yes I think it is important to distinguish between "a science" and "scientific."


That depends on what you think the essence of science is.

Quote:
Is Evolution a Theory or a Fact?
It is both. But that answer requires looking more deeply at the meanings of the words "theory" and "fact."

In everyday usage, "theory" often refers to a hunch or a speculation. When people say, "I have a theory about why that happened," they are often drawing a conclusion based on fragmentary or inconclusive evidence.

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence.

Many scientific theories are so well-established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics). Like these other foundational scientific theories, the theory of evolution is supported by so many observations and confirming experiments that scientists are confident that the basic components of the theory will not be overturned by new evidence. However, like all scientific theories, the theory of evolution is subject to continuing refinement as new areas of science emerge or as new technologies enable observations and experiments that were not possible previously.

One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed. For example, the theory of gravitation predicted the behavior of objects on the moon and other planets long before the activities of spacecraft and astronauts confirmed them. The evolutionary biologists who discovered Tiktaalik predicted that they would find fossils intermediate between fish and limbed terrestrial animals in sediments that were about 375 million years old. Their discovery confirmed the prediction made on the basis of evolutionary theory. In turn, confirmation of a prediction increases confidence in that theory.

In science, a "fact" typically refers to an observation, measurement, or other form of evidence that can be expected to occur the same way under similar circumstances. However, scientists also use the term "fact" to refer to a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples. In that respect, the past and continuing occurrence of evolution is a scientific fact. Because the evidence supporting it is so strong, scientists no longer question whether biological evolution has occurred and is continuing to occur. Instead, they investigate the mechanisms of evolution, how rapidly evolution can take place, and related questions.


http://www.nationalacademies.org/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

I would argue that theory, or explanations of observations are the essence of science.

zz1000zz
Empirical data is not needed for discussing definitions.


Kinda. I mean how else are you determining what objects are being defined? If I want to define, say a bird, or a mammal, or a galaxy and I don't use any empirical data at all how exactly am I defining this?

zz1000zz
If anyone questions the definitions I have used, they are welcome to ask after them. However, you cannot simply throw out definitions on the basis of them not being supported by observed evidence.


Wait this happens all the time. In the middle ages heat was defined as something like spirits leaving an object. Now at days it is defined as friction.

Disease was once defined as the "humors" of the body being out of place (hence the practice of blood letting ) . Now at days we define it in a number of ways, primarily with respect to cell-organic breakdown or microbial infection.

As our knowledge grows, our definitions change.

zz1000zz
Before accusing someone of a fallacy, learn what the fallacy is. You cannot apply the fallacy of composition to what I said.

Or rather, you can but...


You are equating the whole of Marxism with a part of Marxism. I.e. his economic theories with his political viewpoints, even though the past majority of his writings concerns economics, not politics.

zz1000zz
You cannot ask, "Is Marxism a science," then choose to only consider some parts of Marxism.


And why not? If I think Marx is right about some things, and wrong about others, why can't I do this?
     
Seltaya
Actually, communism just...doesn't work. The pilgrims tried it with their first colony, in its purest form. "From each, according to his abilities, to each, according to his needs." It was a dismal failure, and the town starved as a result. Next year, they gave everyone a plot of land and told them to feed themselves. Guess what? Thanksgiving!


Again I would like to keep this about Marx's economic theories not his politics, but to address that point: the fact of the matter is much of what you say depends on technology.

Capitalism didn't "work" during the days of Rome, and the Middle Ages because we did not have the technology to make it work. Democracy didn't "work" in the Dark Ages because they lacked the technical means of travel and communication. Even Monarchy wouldn't "work" in the days of hunter-gatherers because it was impossible to create a sufficient food surplus to support a specialized soldiery.

So I'm not sure what you are arguing- that Communism now may not work, or that Communism will never work no matter what. Like even if we developed genetic engineering and cybertechnology and robotics Communism would still be impossible.

Seltaya
Everyone knows what happened to China and Russia, and though the argument can be made that it failed because they didn't follow the ideals of communism, the real reason it doesn't work is because it ignores human nature. When you take away profit motive, profit stops being generated.


The reason it didn't work is because they were not technologically developed enough. Even Lenin admitted this, arguing that unless the USSR linked to a first world proletariat it would probably degenerate. The only one who disagreed with this was Stalin, and that is because he was hungry for power.

Also you do realize capitalism ignores human nature right? I mean the 8 hour work day is not the standard for hunter-gatherer societies. In fact, most hunter-gatherer societies are communal (relatively equal, with 100 or so members sharing resources). And hunter-gatherer society is what evolutionary psychologists (those who actually study human nature) call our "ancestral evolutionary environment" (meaning the environment where our instincts are shaped. )

In other words, given what we know in evolutionary psychology, communism may actually be the default position of human nature. This is why it keeps cropping up.
 
     


"We stand for the maintenance of private property... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."
-Adolph Hitler
 
Dermezel
Also you do realize capitalism ignores human nature right? I mean the 8 hour work day is not the standard for hunter-gatherer societies. In fact, most hunter-gatherer societies are communal (relatively equal, with 100 or so members sharing resources). And hunter-gatherer society is what evolutionary psychologists (those who actually study human nature) call our "ancestral evolutionary environment" (meaning the environment where our instincts are shaped. )
In other words, given what we know in evolutionary psychology, communism may actually be the default position of human nature. This is why it keeps cropping up.

Please stop pretending that Marxism and Darwinism are the same thing; one refers to natural selection being the cause of evolution, the other proposed that change occured through class struggle and revolution. Marx was a Darwin fangirl, but disliked his "crude English style". Only Marxists insist that the two are complimentary theories, solely for the street cred. Chuck thought Karl did a good job on Das Kapital, but otherwise the two theories aren't really miscible. The economic theories Marx created brought up valid points, but mostly Marx and his followers are a bunch of pretentious, megalomanical egomaniacs. The sole reason you want to leave everything but the economics out is because you know the rest is wrong, too.
Quote:
zz1000zz
You cannot ask, "Is Marxism a science," then choose to only consider some parts of Marxism.

And why not? If I think Marx is right about some things, and wrong about others, why can't I do this?

Well, this is what you're doing:
If I wanted to write about Hitler, and say he was a charming, charismatic leader and an icon to the German people. He was a decorated war hero, and a talented artist; he rose from modest circumstances and a dark history full of abuse and suffering, and became the leader of one the most powerful nations on earth. We can just leave out that thing with the Jews; it's not like it's important. We'll just analyze that aspect of him. I mean, can you find anything wrong with this hero of the people, not counting everything that happened after he was elected to office?
The topic says "Is Marxism a science?" no one but a marxist/communist/socialist/idiot would think that. Does it use science? Kind of. It's just horribly lacking and not nearly up to par with the minimum standards. Once again, no one without some bias towards that kind of thinking would agree.
As for that crap above, I think this pretty much says it all:
http://www.froes.dds.nl/WILSON.htm
Now just let this topic die.
     
Is it me, or does the X-mas version of Edmund look like he's Jingling his Bells?
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