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Golden Dysprosium

1. That's not "empirical data". That's just regular old garden variety statistical data compiled over a time period. Compare with something
like this, which follows the empirical method. You're just barfing up numbers to cover up the fact that it's as scientific as the polls we run on Gaia with the 3rd option being "poll whore".


There are three problems with the above line of reasoning. First statistics are quantified empirical data. In many ways they can be considered more reliable then personal experience. That is not to say they are infallible, the initial data can be corrupted, you need standard scientific tests, the data must be replicated, but all this is already true for the data I presented. In fact I picked this example because it shows how many different groups had similar results. Second, your presented standard is that of a controlled medical study with the implication that science should just be limited to controlled laboratory studies. That removes more then just Marxism, or even social science, but cosmology, biology, archeology, and any other science that relies on natural observation. It is sort of an outdated view of science based on the philosophy of positivism. Your comparison with Gaia polling is likewise invalid, since it does not take into account statistical or scientific controls.

Golden Dysprosium
2. there is no "law of mechanization" in science. Mechanization is a (rather cold) business practice to save money and not have to pay workers. It's not something that happens based on inevitability, or even a legal obligation; it's still the decision of the owners of the company whether or not to replace workers with robotics. It's highly unlikely that we'll see it much in the customer service industry, but in terms of factory production it's a big cost saver.


No it is not the decision of owners in the long-term. In a competitive system it is determined by market forces. If another company can sell its products cheaper because of a machine, they have more customers, more profits, and an increased financial basis upon which to further expand- purchasing more machinery, more workers, and more advertisements. If this continues company A may even reach a point where it can never get past or equal to company B again.
 
     
 
Vryko Lakas
I googled "Law of Mechanization" and "The Organic Composition Model." The first returned two results, one in Chinese that I couldn't read, one a 2004 PDF discussing Carl Popper and talking about the role of habit as it concerns pedagogy. The second search returned only this: ]http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=629088


Honestly, while I find your queries into how I use my time rather amusing, I think it has little to do with what side of demarcation Marxism stands on with respect to science.
     
Dermezel
Second, your presented standard is that of a controlled medical study with the implication that science should just be limited to controlled laboratory studies. That removes more then just Marxism, or even social science, but cosmology, biology, archeology, and any other science that relies on natural observation.

Of course it removes Marxism, you dolt. rolleyes Hell, Creationism has more science in it than Marxism. The example I presented uses data references, observations, controlled study, and stats. Judging by the site you referenced, yours was something some hack (apparently a glorified librarian) threw together from a bunch of companies' financial reports. Which is basically what it is; an over-glorified financial report. How do I know this? I went and compared it with Microsoft's financial reports. And that's exactly where the problem begins: it's not "proof" that Marxism is anything close to science, and the social sciences remain science wannabes.
I'm asking you nicely: stop peddling your rattlesnake oil here.
Quote:
No it is not the decision of owners in the long-term. In a competitive system it is determined by market forces. If another company can sell its products cheaper because of a machine, they have more customers, more profits, and an increased financial basis upon which to further expand- purchasing more machinery, more workers, and more advertisements. If this continues company A may even reach a point where it can never get past or equal to company B again.

In the words of a Protagonist: You always have a choice. Unless legislation is involved, it remains the conscious choice of the owners of the company; some goods are mass produced, others are hand-made. The company's size and product determine whether it's best to use more machinery than people.
GM could go back to grease monkeys and conveyor belts if they wanted, but production would be brutally slow; people would have more jobs, but GM would lose money. So, the best option for such a large producer would be mechanization. Or, slave labor, since you get human quality work for mechnical price, perhaps cheaper. Pet stores, however, rely on breeders, which is basically equal to hand-made (since it's sans machinery).
You might want to learn more about what you're arguing for. neutral
 
     
 
Dermezel
Honestly, while I find your queries into how I use my time rather amusing, I think it has little to do with what side of demarcation Marxism stands on with respect to science.

While it's cute that you think I have nothing better to do than follow you around the internets, I was actually curious about whether or not Marxism had something to say on automation in industry. It just thought it was kind of funny that following the terms you used led directly to you on another forum urging the Chinese to buy Japanese factory robots.
     
Romuel
I mean, here in M&R we have kind of a schizophrenia on the subject. We either have 'My faith tells me homos r bad' or we have Eteponge.
Vryko Lakas
Dermezel
Honestly, while I find your queries into how I use my time rather amusing, I think it has little to do with what side of demarcation Marxism stands on with respect to science.

While it's cute that you think I have nothing better to do than follow you around the internets, I was actually curious about whether or not Marxism had something to say on automation in industry. It just thought it was kind of funny that following the terms you used led directly to you on another forum urging the Chinese to buy Japanese factory robots.

http://www.rovang.org/wg/pics/megazord.jpg

It's probably because he's the only one who uses those terms.
Alternate Universe Dermezel
Now Japan is the country furthest ahead in robotics, and it is likewise situated close to China. It would this be wise for China to look into this matter soon, especially while the imperialist powers are still recovering from their last business cycle

It doesn't matter what Marxism has in common with the empirical methodology: it's not a science, it's a system of backwards economic thought. How on earth would it help humanity to believe in a system that inevitably leads to social loafing?
Plus, there's a flaw in your Marxist thinking: by introducing more mechanization into the workplace, we're eliminating jobs. Communism basically works on the idea that everyone works (as if rolleyes ), and then the money goes into one big pot. Then everyone gets their share of it. But lets look at more realistically. More mechanization, more saving money for the execs, less jobs for the people, less money in the pot for the unemployed factory worker.
Quote:
Marx made specific, testable predictions about capitalist development in Capital, so far these predictions seem well founded by economic data.

Kinda like Jim Cramer. Business goes in cycles, hence your first little "law" *snicker*, so it's pretty easy to predict what will happen next. But, like both Marx and Cramer, you can be dead wrong. And, as you can see, they were.
 
     
 
What you hacks tend to ignore is that "mechanization" does not make human labor obsolete. It merely removes jobs for unskilled workers and demands the labor of skilled workers, thus providing incentive for workers to further their education beyond "hit this with a hammer." Did you ever wonder who has to design, build, and maintain these robots?
     

http://badges.mypersonality.info/badge/0/15/150696.png
Minarchist Individualism
Kikarok
What you hacks tend to ignore is that "mechanization" does not make human labor obsolete. It merely removes jobs for unskilled workers and demands the labor of skilled workers, thus providing incentive for workers to further their education beyond "hit this with a hammer." Did you ever wonder who has to design, build, and maintain these robots?

Thank you for coming to our rescue, Captain Obvious. rolleyes
The epic fail in theories like Marx's is that it seems to blatantly skim over the fact that the production industry isn't the only industry. Or, to illustrate my point more clearly:

"The People's Revolution shall librate the oppressed factory workers!" scream
"But....I'm a doctor." neutral
 
     
 
Regardless of whether or not communism is a good idea, or even a feasible idea, Marxism still cannot be treated as a hard science due to lack of usable data. The three main branches of hard science, physics, chemistry and biology, can be done in labs and subjected to controlled experiment, at least to a large extent.
The hard sciences that cannot so easily be done in labs, such as population behaviors and astronomy, have plenty of observational data to work with and can find instances that differ by only one free parameter, thus allowing for conclusive correlations to be drawn.

There have existed no more than five hundred economies from which we can draw data, no two of them similar enough to give us anything resembling a single-parameter difference, and most of these records are far from usable, being incomplete, distorted, or simply full of lies either by the accountants of the time or the historians who came after.
The point of "testable predictions" is to be able to distinguish the predictions of one theory from all the others, but without controlled experiment and without sufficient data to emulate a controlled experiment, there are no tests that will distinguish Marxism from an economic model that just happens to match it on the five hundred examples that we have but gives entirely different reasoning and wouldn't match it under different situations. There are simply too many free parameters, and with each economy having its own unique value for each parameter there is no way to pinpoint from the available data which parameter is the important one.

So whether or not the creation of economic models undergoes the same process that science does, the screening process for those models is inevitably different from that of the hard sciences. Similarly for the other "social" or "soft" sciences; all of them make solid predictions but these predictions are not empirically testable in the strict sense of "test" because the data is terrible.
     
Physics and Mathematics Guild

"It's a rave, you've never done it before, everybody sit the ******** down!"
-MC Cutter
Of course it's a science! Just like astrology or alchemy, and deserving of the same level of respect.
 
     
"What if God wanted to be liked instead of loved? What if He waited until he had the support of the majority? Common Good be damned! Give me something magnificently uncommon!" --Henry David Thoreau
 
Golden Dysprosium

Of course it removes Marxism, you dolt. rolleyes Hell, Creationism has more science in it than Marxism.


How is creationism even a science? I mean you seem to ignore that Marxism is materialist/naturalist, whereas creationism relies on the supernatural.

Golden Dysprosium
The example I presented uses data references, observations, controlled study, and stats. Judging by the site you referenced, yours was something some hack (apparently a glorified librarian) threw together from a bunch of companies' financial reports.


I am interested on this point about how my specific source was a "hack". He holds a degree in the relevant field, is a working member of an accredited university, and presented data which other, similar experts in the field have replicated.
     
Dermezel
How is creationism even a science? I mean you seem to ignore that Marxism is materialist/naturalist, whereas creationism relies on the supernatural.

Marxism=fail, and (as Layra, myself, and everyone else have repeatedly pointed out) it is NOT scientific..
It's funny how you've completely ignored all of that. biggrin
 
     
Is it me, or does the X-mas version of Edmund look like he's Jingling his Bells?
 
No.
     
"It also occurred to him that throughout history man has told only two stories: that of a lost ship searching the Mediterranean for a beloved isle, and that of a god who allows himself to be crucified in Golgotha."
- Borges

Lastfm
Golden Dysprosium
I went and compared it with Microsoft's financial reports.


Perhaps you can show us these financial reports?

Golden Dysprosium
And that's exactly where the problem begins: it's not "proof" that Marxism is anything close to science, and the social sciences remain science wannabes.


I fail to see your logic here. You went and saw Microsoft's financial reports, and that proves all social science is pseudoscience.

In any case, I think we can begin elsewhere, say with Marx's labor theory of value.

It begins with Adam Smith who distinguished between two types of price: market and natural. The natural price, which all prices gravitate towards, whereas market prices are determined artificially by the seller. Smith noted the former is determined by the cost of production. David Ricardo refined this theory by showing that the cost of production is what determines prices, not supply and demand in the long term (Smith believed that supply and demand regulated natural prices). Further Ricardo showed that the cost of production, with respect to trade, is usually determined by two things: living labor (which is wages, etc.) and dead labor (the cost of wages that went into capital previous). Marx's contribution was to show how this labor is exploited by the capitalist who sells the commodity at its full value/natural price, but does not pay his workers the full value for their labor i.e. the capitalist will sell the commodity at full price, but will not pay his or her workers the full price of their contribution.

Hence Adam Smith and Ricardo proved the labor theory of value, and Marx proved how labor is exploited.


First with respect to supply and demand there are, what Adam Smith distinguished as "market prices" and "natural prices".

Quote:
[04] When the price of any commodity is neither more nor less than what is sufficient to pay the rent of the land, the wages of the labour, and the profits of the stock employed in raising, preparing, and bringing it to market, according to their natural rates, the commodity is then sold for what may be called its natural price.

[05] The commodity is then sold precisely for what it is worth, or for what it really costs the person who brings it to market; for though in common language what is called the prime cost of any commodity does not comprehend the profit of the person who is to sell it again, yet if he sell it at a price which does not allow him the ordinary rate of profit in his neighbourhood, he is evidently a loser by the trade; since by employing his stock in some other way he might have made that profit. His profit, besides, is his revenue, the proper fund of his subsistence. As, while he is preparing and bringing the goods to market, he advances to his workmen their wages, or their subsistence; so he advances to himself, in the same manner, his own subsistence, which is generally suitable to the profit which he may reasonably expect from the sale of his goods. Unless they yield him this profit, therefore, they do not repay him what they may very properly be said to have really cost him.

[06] Though the price, therefore, which leaves him this profit is not always the lowest at which a dealer may sometimes sell his goods, it is the lowest at which he is likely to sell them for any considerable time; at least where there is perfect liberty, or where he may change his trade as often as he pleases.

[07] The actual price at which any commodity is commonly sold is called its market price. It may either be above, or below, or exactly the same with its natural price.


And all prices generally gravitate towards natural prices:

Quote:
[15] The natural price, therefore, is, as it were, the central price, to which the prices of all commodities are continually gravitating. Different accidents may sometimes keep them suspended a good deal above it, and sometimes force them down even somewhat below it. But whatever may be the obstacles which hinder them from settling in this centre of repose and continuance, they are constantly tending towards it.


http://geolib.com/smith.adam/won1-07.html

In other words,the market price is the price the commodity is sold at by means of supply and demand by itself, but the artificial price is the price of a commodity via factors like production, rent, wages, etc. In other words, as Smith notes, the natural price is the true price of commodities.

David Ricardo (arguably the most influential economist after Adam Smith) latter elaborated on this:

Quote:
It is the cost of production which must ultimately regulate the price of commodities, and not, as has been often said, the proportion between the supply and demand: the proportion between supply and demand may, indeed,for a time, affect the market value of a commodity, until it is supplied in greater or less abundance, according as the demand may have increased or diminished; but this effect will be only of temporary duration.

Diminish the cost of production of hats, and their price will ultimately fall to their new natural price, although the demand should be doubled, trebled, or quadrupled. Diminish the cost of subsistence of men, by diminishing the natural price of the food and clothing, by which life is sustained, and wages will ultimately fall, notwithstanding that the demand for labourers may very greatly increase.

The opinion that the price of commodities depends solely on the proportion of supply to demand, or demand to supply, has become almost an axiom in political economy, and has been the source of much error in that science. It is this opinion which has made Mr Buchanan maintain that wages are not influenced by a rise or fall in the price of provisions, but solely by the demand and supply of labour; and that a tax on the wages of labour would not raise wages, because it would not alter the proportion of the demand of labourers to the supply.

The demand for a commodity cannot be said to increase, if no additional quantity of it be purchased or consumed; and yet, under such circumstances, its money value may rise. Thus, if the value of money were to fall, the price of every commodity would rise, for each of the competitors would be willing to spend more money than before on its purchase; but though its price rose 10 or 20 per cent if no more were bought than before, it would not, I apprehend, be admissible to say, that the variation in the price of the commodity was caused by the increased demand for it. Its natural price, its money cost of production, would be really altered by the altered value of money; and without any increase of demand, the price of the commodity would be naturally adjusted to that new value.

'We have seen,' says M. Say, 'that the cost of production determines the lowest price to which things can fall: the price below which they cannot remain for any length of time, because production would then be either entirely stopped or diminished.' Vol. ii. p. 26


http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch30.htm

Marx latter develops this principle so as to explain the difference between use-value and exchange value, and the relationship this has to trade and currency.

For example let's examine a simple barter:

Quote:
5 beds = 1 house – (clinai pente anti oiciaς)

is not to be distinguished from

5 beds = so much money. – (clinai pente anti ... oson ai pente clinai)


Marx explains why this is so by simply expanding/evolving the system of barter/trade:

And expand this so we get:

Quote:

(20 yards of linen = 1 coat or = 10 lbs tea or = 40 lbs. coffee or
= 1 quarter corn or = 2 ounces gold or = ½ ton iron or = &c.)


So the first is a basic measurement- x = y. The latter expanded x = a, b, c, d, etc.

From this we can go to a general standard of trade:

Quote:
1 coat
10 lbs of tea
40 lbs of coffee
1 quarter of corn
2 ounces of gold
½ a ton of iron
x Commodity A, etc.
= 20 yards of linen


And from that to money:

Quote:
D. The Money-Form

20 yards of linen =
1 coat =
10 lbs of tea =
40 lbs of coffee =
1 quarter of corn =
2 ounces of gold =
½ a ton of iron =
x Commodity A =
= 2 ounces of gold


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm#S3a3

Marx's distinction is crucial here, because without realizing how the economy evolves, and how exchange is its own value based on labor, as opposed to utility, it is difficult to see why money indeed has any value at all.
 
     
 
Here I would also like to note that it is the alternative theory to Marxism, the notion of "marginal utility" that is (to wax paradoxical) the real pseudo-science:

Quote:
In economics, the marginal utility of a good or of a service is the utility of the specific use to which an agent would put a given increase in that good or service, or of the specific use that would be abandoned in response to a given decrease. In other words, marginal utility is the utility of the marginal use — which, on the assumption of economic rationality, would be the least urgent use of the good or service, from the best feasible combination of actions in which its use is included.[1][2] Under the mainstream assumptions, the marginal utility of a good or service is the posited quantified change in utility obtained by increasing or by decreasing use of that good or service.

This concept grew out of attempts by economists to explain the determination of price. The term “marginal utility”, credited to the Austrian economist Friedrich von Wieser by Alfred Marshall,[3] was a translation of Wieser's term “Grenznutzen” (border-use).[1][2]


Quote:
The “law” of diminishing marginal utility is said to explain the “paradox of water and diamonds”, most commonly associated with Adam Smith[17] (though recognized by earlier thinkers).[18] Human beings cannot even survive without water, whereas diamonds were in Smith's day mere ornamentation or engraving bits. Yet water had a very low price, and diamonds a very high price, by any normal measure. Marginalists explained that it is the marginal usefulness of any given quantity that determines its price, rather than the usefulness of a class or of a totality. For most people, water was sufficiently abundant that the loss or gain of a gallon would withdraw or add only some very minor use if any; whereas diamonds were in much more restricted supply, so that the lost or gained use would be much greater.

That is not to say that the price of any good or service is simply a function of the marginal utility that it has for any one individual nor for some ostensibly typical individual. Rather, individuals are willing to trade based upon the respective marginal utilities of the goods that they have or desire (with these marginal utilities being distinct for each potential trader), and prices thus develop constrained by these marginal utilities.

The “law” does not tell us such things as why diamonds are naturally less abundant on the earth than is water, but helps us to understand how this affects the value imputed to a given diamond and the price of diamonds in a market.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility#Marginalist_theory

Marginalism thus presents the most commonly cited alternative to the Marxist theory of value. The problem however is that marginalism is untestable. It is in fact admitted to be untestable by its proponents, the Austrian School of Economics:

Quote:
When we study economics, we are dealing with observables. The prices of products, exchange rates of different national currencies, and the employment rate are all things we can observe. If we have a theory about how such things work, we can test that theory's predictions with what we observe and tell how good the theory is based on how close our predictions came to reality. A theory about economics will either make predictions about reality that can be observed or it will not. If it does not make any predictions that we can check, it is a useless theory and cannot tell us anything about our world. If this theory does make predictions, it is meaningful because its claims about the world can be found to be true or false. If this theory continuously succeeds at making correct predictions, we say this is a good theory, at least in the situations that we've tested it in. If there are parts of our theory that can be discarded while still retaining all of our theory's predictive power, those parts should be discarded.

Of course advocates of the Austrian school have objections to these arguments and insist that the empirical method is not a good one for economics. I emailed one of them following an article of his I saw at mises.org which rejected the empirical method. He replied to what I wrote with these things, which are pretty standard arguments from the Austrians.

He started by saying that some things, like the law of demand, are set in stone and that if it wasn't true, then we'd have to throw out all our textbooks because we wouldn't know if the law of demand would be true the next day. But this is bad reasoning because if all our textbooks are wrong, we are best off admitting it frankly and starting anew instead of lying to ourselves to make things easier. Also, if an economic law has passed numerous tests and made many true predictions it is very reasonable to believe it will continue to do so, the very reason we empirically test a theory is to find out how reliable it is.

He stated that one of the central tenets of Austrian economics is that the laws of human action are not falsifiable. But falsifiability is an absolute requirement of a scientific theory. If a theory makes predictions about reality, it can be falsified. All we'd have to do is find what predictions it makes, then test if those predictions are true. If a theory makes predictions that turn out to be false, we know our theory is wrong. Our Austrians seem to be saying that if we observe one thing and our theory tells us something else, we should ignore what we just saw and continue believing in our theory. Our theory won't be falsifiable only if it makes no predictions, and if it makes no predictions, it's useless for anything.

He later said that the premises for human action come from the long-term observations of human behavior and don't need to be continually tested to see if they're true. So he's saying here that situations have been observed where some law appears to hold, in fact numerous situations have backed up the validity of the law. What's odd then is that he seems to be saying that if some other situation comes up that contradicts this law, we should ignore this because the law has held up in so many situations before this happened. But of course this new situation isn't any less valid than any of the others, it happened and if we're interested in the truth, we can't ignore it. Part of scientific reasoning is that we try to prove our theories wrong instead of right. We put them to all sorts of tests to see if they always make correct predictions, and if they continuously pass our tests, we call them good theories and depend on them, though of course they're always up for more testing in other situations and to be tested more accurately. If we have a theory that passes all of our tests for a long time, but then we find a new situation where the theory fails, we don't throw out the theory altogether. Instead we say that the old theory is valid under the circumstances where it was successfully tested before and invalid under the new situations. We'd study these new situations and come up with new theories that explained economic behavior there. Finally, we would, if possible, find one theory that could give correct predictions under the new and old situations without any artificial separation between the two.

He also says that the laws of economics are true because of a certain understanding of how human beings act. The problem with this is that the theory that is built up is nothing more than an idealization of what human beings are. It is how a certain person believes that human beings act, but it's a fairly informal way of trying to figure things out and really isn't something we can depend on. So once we have this economic system built up from our understanding of how humans act, we have to scientifically test it to find if it is true.

These arguments are typical of the Austrians. I hope I've convinced you of how unreasonable they are and why any theory of economics must be scientifically tested. For a long time, the social sciences acted like they were immune from scientific testing. Fortunately the tide is turning as we can see from the latest Nobel prize awards. In the future, hopefully every theory will be empirically tested before being accepted as true.


http://anti-state.com/article.php?article_id=381

I find it sort of disingenuous how the opponents of Marxism will claim it is untestable, generally for some unknown, or unstated reason, but will then be so quick to embrace marginal utility, which is admitted to be untestable by its proponents.
     
Golden Dysprosium
Dermezel
How is creationism even a science? I mean you seem to ignore that Marxism is materialist/naturalist, whereas creationism relies on the supernatural.

Marxism=fail, and (as Layra, myself, and everyone else have repeatedly pointed out) it is NOT scientific..
It's funny how you've completely ignored all of that. biggrin


That link isn't even relevant. It is a link to the Oxford English definition of Marxism. It says: Marxism

• noun
the political and economic theories of Karl Marx (1818-83) and Friedrich Engels (1820-95), later developed by their followers to form the basis for the theory and practice of communism.


Now perhaps I am mistaken, but that seems to have nothing to do with the scientific validity of Marxism.
 
     


"We stand for the maintenance of private property... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."
-Adolph Hitler
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