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Alt_Jack
Marx certainly crafted a nice story.
Quote:
The lowly factory workers rebel against their evil employers who are (apparently, though this is demonstratably false) exploiting the workers for their own profit. After violent international anarchy, a socialist utopia is constructed (never really said how) and everything is all rainbows and ponies from there.
I'm sure there would be some pop-ups in "Das Kapital".
His "labor theory of value" has been shown to be mathematically false, as shown above.


Please explain those mathematics in specific detail.
 
     
 
I should also submit, for sake of compiling evidence, that a panel of experts in the field of economics have released an essay basically reiterating many of the criticisms of "neo-classical" i.e. marginalist economics I presented in this thread:

Quote:
2. The crisis is at least partly due to shortcomings a certain theory of economics

"Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholder's equity (myself especially) are in a state of shocked disbelief. … It was the failure to properly price such risky assets that precipitated the crisis. In recent decades, a vast risk management and pricing system has evolved, combining the best insights of mathematicians and finance experts supported by major advances in computer and communications technology. A Nobel Prize was awarded for the discovery of the pricing model that underpins much of the advance in derivatives markets. This modern risk management paradigm held sway for decades. The whole intellectual edifice, however, collapsed in the summer of last year because the data inputted into the risk management models generally covered only the past two decades, a period of euphoria."

— Testimony of Dr. Alan Greenspan, US House of Representatives Committee on Government Oversight and Reform, October 23, 2008

When economists and other scientists study a complex system they begin by asking about what assumptions have been used previously in understanding it, and how well they have done compared to data. So if we approach the crisis in this way, we have to begin by asking about the principles and assumptions that have been used to construct and justify the complex financial instruments whose use contributed to the present instability. We want to know how these theoretical ideas have been tested, and whether or not the present crisis is evidence that the ideas that the financial system have been built on may need to be improved.

In fact, there is an economic theory that shapes much of our thinking, as well as the practices of investment banks and the decisions of economic policy makers. This is called neoclassical economics. It is based on the following assumptions:

i. Most of the time markets are in or close to stable equilibrium.

ii. Participants in markets act rationally to maximize fixed and known preferences described by definite and time independent utility functions.

iii. Participants in markets have perfect knowledge of the information driving the markets as well as all other participants.

iv. Prices are set by a deterministic process of joint maximization of the preferences of all involved in a trade.

v. Fluctuations in prices are small, random and uncorrelated.

vi. There is perfect liquidity so all prices are well defined, and all markets clear.

vii. There is no important difference between markets comprising a few individuals and those comprising millions, so simple models suffice to elucidate the principles that govern markets.

The neoclassical paradigm based on these ideas has had some undisputed successes. At the same time, it appears to have led to the adoption of practices and recommendations, which are at least partly at the root of the present crisis. These included the ideas that,

i. Regulation is limited or unnecessary because markets find and stay close to stable equilibrium where they operate most efficiently, leading to maximally stable economic growth, whereas regulation only leads to slower growth. But we face a potentially precipitous decline in economic growth and prosperity in the wake of some deregulation.

ii. Everything has a value or price, at all times, that can be uniquely determined by some definite objective process. This includes contracts that refer to prices of fluctuating variables at future times. There is experience with futures contracts, which have prices which are set daily by their being actively traded. But we are now seeing these values evaporate.

iii. This trading experience may be generalized to a claim that complex financial instruments which oblige actions to be taken at future times based on conditions not known till then, still have definite values and prices even if they are never or rarely traded. But part of the crisis is due to the fact that the balance sheets of banks and companies holding these contracts cannot be computed because they include instruments whose prices have been revealed as simply hypothetical and are now proving to be indeterminate [1].

iv. Stability can be increased by inventing and trading abstract complex financial instruments rather than principal contracts like stocks and mortgages. Examples are derivatives. Although these predate the birth of Christ and have been a factor in every economy of scale since, our markets have recently been flooded with a host of new ones which cleverly combine functions of different prices at different times into financial instruments whose values are purported to fluctuate less than the values of stocks making them up. The theory behind the possibility of combining fluctuating variables into variables that fluctuate less is critically dependent on the above assumptions, especially that the fluctuations are small, random and uncorrelated. But these assumptions have been shown to be false.

v. It has been argued that these innovative instruments should not be regulated even as much as stock trading because they function as insurance to increase stability. This was based on another false assumption that any mathematical function of the values of stocks at different times has a fixed and determinate value at any time.

vi. Because price determination is a definite process of maximization of known preferences in an environment of perfect knowledge, and because all values are definite, it can be in some instances automated and carried out by computers programmed to trade under specified conditions. But some markets thus operated have failed to function or clear trades.

Before we look more deeply into possible difficulties with the neoclassical paradigm, we have to also emphasize that it has been so influential because it does give important insight into how markets work in some circumstances. Nor has it ignored the possibility that markets can have instabilities. For example, there is a long list of well known market failures (principal agent problems, moral hazard, public goods, menu costs, lemon markets, adverse selection, rent-seeking behavior, incomplete knowledge, incomplete markets, multiple equilibria etc. …) So we do not want to ignore the successes of this paradigm or overlook the role that these well known understandings may play in understanding the current crisis. But we also want to ask if there are alternative ideas, principles and methods of modeling economic systems which might also provide the basis for wise advice and policy.

As a result, in part, at least of belief in the neoclassical paradigm, a very technical approach to trading has come to dominate markets based on complex financial instruments and strategies that require mathematical scientists and computers to carry out. Beginning as small speculative efforts, these now dominate markets. In most markets including equities and credit, the value of derivative contracts now exceeds by an order of magnitude the total value of underlying contracts, which must be traded to fulfill those derived from them.

When physicists made the atomic bomb they realized what they had conceived and immediately felt a sober responsibility to help make the world safe from their invention. At this time there is a responsibility for those with the knowledge and skills to understand the financial instruments involved in this crisis to help first to resolve this crisis and to next turn their attention to the design and regulation of a stable market system. This will involve economists, mathematicians, physicists, biologists, computer scientists and others working together to make a more stable economic system.

In our view, the current crisis does suggest there are weakness in the paradigm of neoclassical economics. In particular:

i. The big markets in the economy appear not to be in equilibrium. Not now, and perhaps also not normally. The fluctuations in the values of stocks, currencies, and commodities are often not random and uncorrelated and, as we have seen recently, they need not be small. Some other paradigm is needed to describe the workings of real markets.

ii. More generally, the theory of competitive general equilibrium is based on assumptions that appear to be too idealized. These include the assumption that at equilibrium prices are set so that all markets will clear no matter how the future unfolds and the assumption that each agent has a view on the value of all possible dated contingent goods [2].

iii. Participants in markets do not have fixed preferences, but the theory of competitive general equilibrium assumes that they do. Preferences change in time unpredictably due to changing tastes and circumstances as well as in response to innovations which introduce new products and eliminate the needs for old products, and we should acknowledge this. The unforeseeable aspects of innovations renders risk assessments problematic.

iv. There has been an unjustified extrapolation from simple models of markets with two participants and two goods (or something similar) to real markets with millions of participants and thousands of goods, a mistake we should not repeat.

v. Participants in markets do not have perfect knowledge, indeed their knowledge and beliefs about the market conditions are sometimes false or unreliable and different participants have different knowledge and beliefs. We should acknowledge this freedom because it is not the case, as sometimes assumed, that the lack of perfect knowledge by traders averages out as noise.

vi. This has the effect that swings in belief can crash markets and hurt people even when much of the machinery of the goods and services economy is healthy and prepared to function well with an orderly availability of capital.

vii. Increasing returns can lead to path dependence in the economy so that the evolution of an economy will depend on historical contingencies. This makes prediction and risk assessment difficult.

viii. There appears to be a basic lack of appreciation of the importance of relative scales. This is because of the misapplication of the neoclassical paradigm that the markets operate near equilibrium. Financial instruments such as derivatives indeed can do little harm except to those who use them, so long as they represent only a fraction of a market. However, an extremely dangerous situation emerges when their use grows to the point where so much equity is pledged in the resulting contracts that a movement in the markets in a non-random direction can introduce an instability in which the contracts are called but cannot possibly be fulfilled. Any meaningful discussion about whether a novel financial instrument requires regulation must involve the scale of its use.


http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/brown08/brown08_index.html

The evidence just keeps piling up in favor of Marxism and in disfavor of Libertarianism.
     
Dermezel
The evidence just keeps piling up in favor of Marxism and in disfavor of Libertarianism.

That's funny, because from the exact same site, in their "About" section:

Quote:
A 1950s education in Freud, Marx, and modernism is not a sufficient qualification for a thinking person in the 1990s.
 
     
 
It's not a science, it's a political philosophy. Big, big difference, which doesn't make it any less valuable.
     
Areliana
It's not a science, it's a political philosophy. Big, big difference, which doesn't make it any less valuable.


I would disagree primarily because it makes predictions that are empirically falsifiable, and has passed the test of replicating/confirming evidence by peer review.

Contrast this to say marginalism, which is untestable on principle.
 
     
 
Dermezel
Areliana
It's not a science, it's a political philosophy. Big, big difference, which doesn't make it any less valuable.

I would disagree primarily because it makes predictions that are empirically falsifiable, and has passed the test of replicating/confirming evidence by peer review.

The "think-tank" you referenced, or as you put it:
Dermezel
...a panel of experts in the field of economics...

which bases themselves on those very ideas, seems to think otherwise. neutral
     
Golden Dysprosium
Dermezel
The evidence just keeps piling up in favor of Marxism and in disfavor of Libertarianism.

That's funny, because from the exact same site, in their "About" section:

Quote:
A 1950s education in Freud, Marx, and modernism is not a sufficient qualification for a thinking person in the 1990s.


Well all that seems to say is that the editor doesn't personally like Marx. Hardly what I would call compelling evidence.
 
     
 
Golden Dysprosium
The "think-tank" you referenced, or as you put it:
Dermezel
...a panel of experts in the field of economics...

which bases themselves on those very ideas, seems to think otherwise. neutral


You do realize that the editor of edge.org and the panel I quoted are two different person(s)?

Here is the panel (who I quoted):

Quote:
MIKE BROWN is Past Chairman of The Nasdaq Stock Market Board of Directors, past governor of the National Association of Securities Dealers, and past CFO of Microsoft Corporation, currently a director of EMC Corporation, VMware, Administaff Inc., Pipeline Financial Group Inc., and Thomas Weisel Partners. Mike Brown's Edge Bio Page.

STUART KAUFFMAN is Professor of biology, physics and astronomy and head of the Institute for Biocomplexity and Informatics, University of Calgary , also emeritus professor of biochemistry at the University of Pennsylvania, a MacArthur Fellow and an external professor at the Santa Fe Institute. Author of The Origins of Order, At Home in the Universe, Investigations and Reinventing the Sacred. Stuart Kauffman's Edge Bio Page.
ZOE-VONNA PALMROSE is PricewaterhouseCoopers Professor of Auditing and Accounting, University of Southern California. Formerly served as Deputy Chief Accountant for Professional Practice in the Office of the Chief Accountant at the Securities and Exchange Commission. Co-author, with Mike Brown, of Thog's Guide to Quantum Economics. Zoe-Vonna Palmrose's Edge Bio Page.

LEE SMOLIN is Founding and senior faculty, Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics. Author of Life of the Cosmos, Three Roads to Quantum Gravity and The Trouble with Physics. Lee Smolin's Edge Bio Page.


Here is who you quote:

Quote:
JOHN BROCKMAN is a cultural impresario whose career has encompassed the avant-garde art world, science, books, software, and the Internet. In the 1960s he coined the word "intermedia" and pioneered "intermedia kinetic environments" in art, theatre, and commerce, while also consulting for clients such as General Electric, Columbia Pictures, Scott Paper, The Pentagon, and the White House.

In 1973, he formed Brockman, Inc., the international literary and software agency specializing in serious nonfiction. He is the founder of the nonprofit Edge Foundation, Inc. and editor of Edge (www.edge.org), the highly acclaimed website devoted to discussions of cutting edge science by many of the world's brilliant thinkers, the leaders of what he has termed "the third culture".


Now let me ask, do you know the difference between an expert with credentials and experience that are relevant to the subject, and one who's experience are not relevant to the subject?

For example, you do see a difference between a molecular biologist talking about DNA, and an astronomer talking about DNA correct?
     
Dermezel
Well all that seems to say is that the editor doesn't personally like Marx.

Actually, a lot of the contributors (i.e scientists, economics PhDs, etc) to that site don't like Marxism. I was smart enough (unlike yourself, who should've check for Anti-Marx sentiment beforehand) to check the site's credibility (which I always do), one would (correctly) assume I'd run a search for Marxism to see if they actually support it, as you've claimed. And they don't.
Which is what made me search it in the first place. I found it odd that A: you submitted a site that wasn't blatantly against Capitalism and B: a panel of economics experts would support Marxism. Clearly, neither they nor their site do. Also, it seems the person I "quoted" is highly reputable in his own right, as the White House and Pentagon don't hire just anyone as a consultant.
Quote:
For example, you do see a difference between a molecular biologist talking about DNA, and an astronomer talking about DNA correct?

Which proves nothing. I can write you a 4-page essay on DNA and it's functions crammed full of Bio jargon and I'm not even out of college yet. Furthermore, the pointless article you provided never mentions anything relavent, nor does it support your ideas about Marxism. Much like Das Kapital Vol.1, it's a critique of economic history. It doesn't say anything about Marxism, and I doubt that the people you've praised support Marxism either.
Quote:
Now let me ask, do you know the difference between an expert with credentials and experience that are relevant to the subject, and one who's experience are not relevant to the subject?
Do you? Half of the people on your little Super Team are physicists (which isn't exactly economics-related), while the other two are an accountant and a Microsoft CFO. I'm curious as to who in your little group is a supporter of a backwards, 200-yr old ideology based solely on factory work.
 
     
 
Here are a few folks who aren't too fond of Marxism:
Quote:
"The greatest crime of Marxism wasn't simply that much of what it claimed was false, but that it claimed to be the sole and utterly complete path to understanding life and reality. - Jaron Lanier

Quote:

During the twentieth century, equally horrific genocides were carried out in the name of Marxism,...The remarkable fact is that the two great ideologically driven genocides of the 20th century came from theories of human nature that were diametrically opposed. The Marxists had no use for the concept of race, didn't believe in genes, and denied Darwin's theory of natural selection as the mechanism of evolutionary adaptation. This shows is that it's not a biological approach to human nature that is uniquely sinister. There must be common threads to Nazism and totalitarian Marxism that cut across a belief in the importance of evolution or genetics. One common thread was a desire to reshape humanity. In the Marxists' case it was through social engineering; in the Nazis' case it was eugenics. Neither of them were satisfied with human beings as we find them, with all their flaws and weaknesses. Rather than building a social order around enduring human, traits they had the conceit that they could re-engineer human traits using scientific—in reality pseudoscientific—principles. In Martin Amis's new book about Stalinism, he argues that intellectuals have not yet come to grips with the lessons of Marxist totalitarianism in the way that they did with Nazi totalitarianism many decades ago. - Pinker


Quote:
What surprises me about the resistance to the application of Darwin to psychology, is the vociferous way in which people want to dismiss it, not even to consider it. Is this a holdover from Marxism or religious doctrines?...Why can't we get over our post-Marxist nostalgia for economic or cultural determinism and accept human reality as it actually is? - Denis Dutton


Quote:
Psychology and the social sciences, of course, consist of little BUT ironic science, such as Freudian psychoanalysis, Marxism, structuralism and the more ambitious forms of sociobiology. Some observers say all these untestable, far-fetched theories are signs of science's vitality and boundless possibilities. I see them as signs of science's desperation and terminal illness. - John Horgan


Quote:
First, Darwin was right. In the realist sense, he is the only one of the big three — Darwin, Marx and Freud — who is still alive. Marxism has shown itself not to work and Freud was wrong about much of his ideas. - Shermer
     
Is it me, or does the X-mas version of Edmund look like he's Jingling his Bells?
I really hate to go wandering in this quagmire (especially since I'm really pressed for time) but I'd like to at least defend Dermezel (of all things!). It's sloppy thinking to go around trying to refute the LTV on the basis that "prices are this way and the LTV predicts that prices ought to be this way," because the LTV is not a theory of price. The LTV is a theory about the nature of value - and hence is compatible with multiple determinations of price. The entailment of the LTV with respect to prices is a degenerate entailment. Which in turn means other means would have to be found to falsify the theory - such as Ernest Mandel gave in his introduction to one of volumes of Capital.

On the other hand, I find Dermy's version of the LTV that he defends to be somewhat more Ricardian than Marxian.
 
     
 
Not according to Popper. It's unfalsifiable.
     
"It also occurred to him that throughout history man has told only two stories: that of a lost ship searching the Mediterranean for a beloved isle, and that of a god who allows himself to be crucified in Golgotha."
- Borges

Lastfm
Before I go to specific replies I think I should note that my opponents (primarily Golden) have used 3 extremely dubious sources/arguments, primarily from the far right-libertarian types.

1- Ayn Rand site. Capitalism.org was presented as having definitive arguments against the labor theory of value. Capitalism.org is an Ayn Rand front site.

2- Marginal Utility. The Austrian school of Economics is mainly responsible for this doozy, and they admitted it is untestable.

3- The Transformation Problem. Again from the Austrian School of Economics (an extreme right wing, libertarian type group, pretty much like Ayn Rand's) which is based on a strawman argument. The labor theory of values notes general prices, not all prices in every condition no matter what. It is the equivalent to arguing against natural selection by saying some freak accident can kill more fit animals.
 
     


"We stand for the maintenance of private property... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."
-Adolph Hitler
 
Dermezel
1- Ayn Rand site. Capitalism.org was presented as having definitive arguments against the labor theory of value. Capitalism.org is an Ayn Rand front site.

I find it interesting that you have not attempted to actually discredit points made by the site, but rather chose to write it off as a "front," as if that would render all information on it false and useless.
     

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Minarchist Individualism
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