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Tags: marxism  science 
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I believe, despite what others may think that many of Marx's assertions have been vindicated by empirical data/testing. Marx made specific, testable predictions about capitalist development in Capital, so far these predictions seem well founded by economic data. Some of these predictions are:

1- The Business Cycle- capitalism will lead to booms and busts. This has never been fully solved in capitalist economies, even welfare states have periodic declines due to overproduction. Likewise more centralized, government run economies are less prone to such disasters. China, for instance, was among the least effected economy during the last two economic recessions, one regional (the East Asian Economic Crisis) and the more current world wide recession caused by the United State's trade imbalance. Likewise centralized, government run economies recover faster. And last, countries which went from government control of the means of production to capitalism, such as the USSR, experienced severe economic collapse and are now more susceptible to periodic recession. Note that Marx did not originate this theory but claimed that these cycles were intrinsic to capitalism and could not be fully ended through regulation, whereas Keynes claimed otherwise. Given the continued presence of current economic crashes in the era where government's will heavily regulate capitalism I would argue that the data shows Marx was more correct then Keynes.

2- The Law of Capital Accumulation- Perhaps the most solid, the law of capital accumulation and centralization states that over time capital will become more centralized and accumulate into ever larger financial institutions. We have seen this directly with the rise of international corporations.

3- Relative-Surplus Value- Along with classes, the emphasis of surplus value as a mechanism which distinguishes capitalism from previous modes of production was an original contribution of Karl Marx, one that has been vindicated over time in the form of "plus-sum" production in game theory models. Marx's argument was that capitalism generates wealth by having more produced at the end of the day, in terms of overall wealth, then at the beginning. This unique contribution has been demonstrated in theoretical economic models i.e. Game Theory. And another auxiliary claim of this proposed mechanism- that relative value will increase for the capitalist and decrease for other classes, even as absolute value increases, has likewise been vindicated by the historically unprecedented rise in inequality.

4- The Organic Composition Model: What I personally call the Mechanization of Capital states that machinery will replace human labor over time. Now at days almost all industrial production and effective agriculture is machine intense. And with emerging tools like the internet and robotics you can do more with less. You can be more productive, or just as productive, with fewer workers.

I would like an analysis, based on a scientific, as opposed to a political standard of Marx's prediction and theories in Capital based on quantifiable empirical data.

Evidence:

Marx claimed capital would centralize and accumulate over time, a claim which has been vindicated by several lines of empirical research and data:

http://www.endgame.org/primer-wealth.html

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth.htm

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9503EFD8153EE033A25753C3A9679C946697D6CF

Second, the relative value of wages would decline:

http://www.ufcw.org/issues/workers_and_the_economy/epiwages.cfm

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_20080220se/

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-11824287.html

Third, Marx states that machines will replace human labor.

http://us-trade-policy.suite101.com/article.cfm/robots_are_replacing_workers

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1TOK/is_6/ai_n25009527/

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED246534&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED246534

This is all current, positive evidence for Marx's predictions.


Also I think it is important to clear up some misconceptions with respect to Karl Marx's theories:

1- Marx's invented the labor theory of value.

The labor theory of value was actually pioneered by the famous economist David Ricardo, who established the cost of production as the primary determinant of prices in the long-run.

Quote:
David Ricardo (18 April 1772 – 11 September 1823) was an English political economist, often credited with systematizing economics, and was one of the most influential of the classical economists, along with Thomas Malthus and Adam Smith.[1]


2- Marx is idealizing labor and ignoring supply and demand.

Marx actually argues against the labor theory of value as a prescriptive similiar to how Darwin argued against social Darwinism. Marx simply notes that in irrational economic systems, like capitalism, labor is treated as the de facto standard of exchange. He is not saying this should be the case, he is arguing that it is the case, and in fact he heavily implies that the economic system should be based more on utility (use-value ) - what we tend to think of as supply and demand.

3- Marxism is all ideology, not science.

Quote:
It has become fashionable to think that Karl Marx was not mainly an economist but instead integrated various disciplines—economics, sociology, political science, history, and so on—into his philosophy. But Mark Blaug, a noted historian of economic thought, points out that Marx wrote “no more than a dozen pages on the concept of social class, the theory of the state, and the materialist conception of history” while he wrote “literally 10,000 pages on economics pure and simple.”1


http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Marx.html

4- Marxism leads to dictatorships like the USSR and the PRC.

Actually it was Lenin's State and Revolution which broke radically from Marx on this question, without supplying any evidence for his arguments at all. Lenin's arguments are purely political and practical, whereas Marx's are scientific. Again, to borrow from Darwinism, it is like comparing the writings of Charles Darwin to social Darwinists like Herbert Spencer.

But you don't have to take my word for it. Just glance at Lenin's State and Revolution and Marx's Capital.

You should notice that Lenin's groundbreaking "book" is actually a pamphlet roughly fifty pages long, full mostly of insults against political opponents. Marx's magnum opus by contrast is roughly 2000 pages of technical economic arguments, observations and material evidence.

5- Marx failed to take into account progressive laws and legislations, he argued capitalism will get worse no matter what.

This is a major point of confusion. Marx did not argue that the predictions made in Capital were inevitable, but that they would occur unless there was political circumvention.

In other words, Marx argued that capitalism is a system. This system follows certain rules- naturally develops a certain way.

Now this means that you can alter the system artificially, say by democratic legislation which protects small businesses. But unless you alter it politically it will tend to develop in certain directions- for example- companies will get larger, more centralized and wealth will become more concentrated over time. An example of this is how corporations tend towards monopoly.
 
     
 
What on earth would make Marxism a science? neutral
MArxism is not science; Marxism is a philosophical system.
Stop trying to pass off Eggos as toast!
     
Why does it matter?
 
     
 
China is in fact a terrible example of "centrally government-run capitalism". Where it is capitalistic, it is not centrally run, and where it is centrally run, it is not capitalism, nor was it particularly good at avoiding large economic disasters.

Specifically, these days the capitalism is largely let loose; there is a total of no business and trade regulation in China, which leads to the usual fun of rampant corruption, lack of quality control, abuse of employees, contract violation, and widespread citizen unrest. China as a whole survived the recent downturn because it has a large cushion of being invaluable to the USA and not caring a wit about the Chinese people.

In the days when the economy was centrally run, we had such spectacular tragedies as the Great Leap Forward, in which thirty million people died of starvation within a few years and the economy was basically halted (although it did almost begin to recover) and the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, during which another bunch of people died, most of China's cultural history went up in flames, in a non-metaphorical sense, the school system, the local government, and the urban economy were entirely destroyed for several years, and rural farmlands overrun by incompetents.


Anyway, as to your original point, economics and economic theories are considered to be "social science", which we here in the physical sciences often dismiss as "soft science"; this is not because of anything intrinsically malformed with the theories from a philosophical point of view, but rather because these theories are difficult to test due to the sparsity of data and the inability to perform controlled experiments to test such theories. As such, theories on economics have to make a large number of assumptions and to extrapolate from very few examples, where it is not entirely clear what are the relevant similarities and differences between these examples. Economics has a bit more respectability than the other soft sciences since it claims to have at least a veneer of mathematics pasted onto it, but there are instances where this veneer has failed utterly.
     
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Can't people just accept that communism is wrong and Marx was a hack?
 
     
 
Quote:
What on earth would make Marxism a science? neutral
MArxism is not science; Marxism is a philosophical system.
Stop trying to pass off Eggos as toast!

Economics are a "soft science". Marxism is an economic model among other things.
There's barely anything philosophical about Marxism. It's all about history and sociology and economics.
     
MyxineDamion
Quote:
What on earth would make Marxism a science? neutral
MArxism is not science; Marxism is a philosophical system.
Stop trying to pass off Eggos as toast!

Economics are a "soft science". Marxism is an economic model among other things.
There's barely anything philosophical about Marxism. It's all about history and sociology and economics.

Yeah, but he's trying to amp it up to "hard science", hence the Eggos/toast remark.
 
     
 
Golden Dysprosium
MyxineDamion
Quote:
What on earth would make Marxism a science? neutral
MArxism is not science; Marxism is a philosophical system.
Stop trying to pass off Eggos as toast!

Economics are a "soft science". Marxism is an economic model among other things.
There's barely anything philosophical about Marxism. It's all about history and sociology and economics.

Yeah, but he's trying to amp it up to "hard science", hence the Eggos/toast remark.

He's making it out to be about as "hard" as other economic models are made out to be, as far as I can tell.

Blame economics for being overly pretentious.
     
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MyxineDamion
Golden Dysprosium
MyxineDamion
Quote:
What on earth would make Marxism a science? neutral
MArxism is not science; Marxism is a philosophical system.
Stop trying to pass off Eggos as toast!

Economics are a "soft science". Marxism is an economic model among other things.
There's barely anything philosophical about Marxism. It's all about history and sociology and economics.

Yeah, but he's trying to amp it up to "hard science", hence the Eggos/toast remark.

He's making it out to be about as "hard" as other economic models are made out to be, as far as I can tell.
Blame economics for being overly pretentious.

I do. Damn economics students. stare
 
     
 
Layra-chan
China is in fact a terrible example of "centrally government-run capitalism". Where it is capitalistic, it is not centrally run, and where it is centrally run, it is not capitalism, nor was it particularly good at avoiding large economic disasters.


I never said China was centrally run capitalism.

I said it was a centrally run workers' state. Only someone uneducated in Marxism would not include that.

Layra-chan
Specifically, these days the capitalism is largely let loose; there is a total of no business and trade regulation in China, which leads to the usual fun of rampant corruption, lack of quality control, abuse of employees, contract violation, and widespread citizen unrest. China as a whole survived the recent downturn because it has a large cushion of being invaluable to the USA and not caring a wit about the Chinese people.


Wrong on both points. China's economy is very state-run, with all large banks being state-owned, and the the Communist Party of China holding the majority of voting power on all major industries, even those where they do not own the most shares.

Layra-chan
In the days when the economy was centrally run, we had such spectacular tragedies as the Great Leap Forward, in which thirty million people died of starvation within a few years and the economy was basically halted (although it did almost begin to recover) and the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, during which another bunch of people died, most of China's cultural history went up in flames, in a non-metaphorical sense, the school system, the local government, and the urban economy were entirely destroyed for several years, and rural farmlands overrun by incompetents.


1- Actually 13 million people may have died from famine. There is no telling how much was caused by the Warlords Era, plus European Imperialism, plus the first Civil Wars between Nationalists and Communists, plus the invasion by Japan, plus the Second Civil Wars. Women were liberated and birth rates likewise lowered. Stats. on death rates are generally based on birth rates on this issue. Mao resigned after hearing the news.

And China's life expectancy, even under Mao, doubled from 30 to 60 years. So even if true, more people were saved in the long-term. And the results were not 30 million, but more like 13, and only cause the economy was already damaged by roughly 4 wars and in China famines are collateral (a river experiencing flooding up north tends to flood southern neighbors, this is why China was collectivist early on. )

Layra-chan
Anyway, as to your original point, economics and economic theories are considered to be "social science", which we here in the physical sciences often dismiss as "soft science"; this is not because of anything intrinsically malformed with the theories from a philosophical point of view, but rather because these theories are difficult to test due to the sparsity of data and the inability to perform controlled experiments to test such theories.


Such nonsense. The social sciences have quantified data and meta-statistics. The distinction between "hard" and "soft" science is subjective.

Let's just, as a case study, go into homeless statistics:

Quote:
The 2001 Population Census data:

* 99,900 houseless people in Australia (105,304 in 1996)
* 54% adults over 24 years of age
* 10% under the age of 12 years
* 36% young people between 12 and 24 years
* 42% of houseless people were female
* 58% were single (58,116)
* 19% were couples (18,840)
* 23% were families (22,944 people or 6,745 families


http://www.homeless.org.au/statistics/

Layra-chan
As such, theories on economics have to make a large number of assumptions


Not Marxism. You are thinking the Austrian School which admits to placing axioms/assumptions over observational data.

Marxism is based directly on observable, testable, data. It makes predictions, and those predictions can be directly tested against empirical evidence.
     


"We stand for the maintenance of private property... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."
-Adolph Hitler
Dermezel
Layra-chan
As such, theories on economics have to make a large number of assumptions

Not Marxism. You are thinking the Austrian School which admits to placing axioms/assumptions over observational data.
Marxism is based directly on observable, testable, data. It makes predictions, and those predictions can be directly tested against empirical evidence.

Because clearly, Marxism has aaaaalllll the answers. rolleyes
The fact that you're trying to push Marxism as empirical in what appears to be an attempt to convert us all to (quel suprise) Marxism is pretty lame. And why did you pull up homeless stats?
As for economics and other social sciences, Mr. Feynman said it best:
Richard Feynman
Because of the success of science, there is, I think, a kind of pseudoscience. Social science is an example of a science which is not a science; they don't do things scientifically, they follow the forms—or you gather data, you do so-and-so and so forth but they don't get any laws, they haven't found out anything.

Marx was the head of the drinking club at his University, Feyman is a Nobel Prize winner who worked on the Manhattan Project.
 
     
Is it me, or does the X-mas version of Edmund look like he's Jingling his Bells?
 
Ekeda
Can't people just accept that communism is wrong and Marx was a hack?


its not communism thats wrong its that the idea of it great but Russia thought they could skip everything and go to communism when in fact there is a cycle (Marx is the founder of it) that for communism or other economic ideals need to follow. also the corrupt leaders didn't help the communism ideal to hold up.

It goes (cant remember whats before capitalism exactly so i didn't include it)

--------&Capitalism will one say change to--------&socialism which one day become----------.Communism which again one day will sprout into an even greater ideal (Marx concluded it stopped there but i don't think it would since everything can be fixed in some way)



also to the whole central capitalism thing at this point in time no country is purly capitalism the US was the last pure capital country but once the government started to buy banks it became a blend of capitalism and socialism.
     
XstraitedgeX
also to the whole central capitalism thing at this point in time no country is purly capitalism the US was the last pure capital country but once the government started to buy banks it became a blend of capitalism and socialism.

I'm curious, you're not referring to the recent government bailouts when you say "started to buy banks" are you?
 
     
Romuel
I mean, here in M&R we have kind of a schizophrenia on the subject. We either have 'My faith tells me homos r bad' or we have Eteponge.
 
WTB people who understand why the commercial paper marker freezing up was a bad bad thing.
     
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XstraitedgeX
Ekeda
Can't people just accept that communism is wrong and Marx was a hack?


its not communism thats wrong its that the idea of it great but Russia thought they could skip everything and go to communism when in fact there is a cycle (Marx is the founder of it) that for communism or other economic ideals need to follow. also the corrupt leaders didn't help the communism ideal to hold up.

It goes (cant remember whats before capitalism exactly so i didn't include it)

--------&Capitalism will one say change to--------&socialism which one day become----------.Communism which again one day will sprout into an even greater ideal (Marx concluded it stopped there but i don't think it would since everything can be fixed in some way)



also to the whole central capitalism thing at this point in time no country is purly capitalism the US was the last pure capital country but once the government started to buy banks it became a blend of capitalism and socialism.

We've been a blend of socialism and capitlism for years...

Social Security... and much of Mr. FDR's plan's which still fester today.
 
     
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Yes, that's me getting a wedgie! Base 10 for the Win!
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