If you are against gay marriage, you are a bad Christian.

[Deep Vermillion]

AciDSniper

That's a split hair's difference at most.

Topics in the Recycle Bin are repeats of previously established threads, threads in the Chatterbox don't belong (or have ceased belonging) in any of the other forums. 3nodding

Calmer

Aye, but the issue here is of scripture and/or Christian sect's rules as regards marriage, as opposed to the 'status quo' that regular Christians go by in real life.

What makes you a good or bad Christian, I would assume, is more about how you act in regards the Bible - and possibly your sect's official view, dependent on its authority - on marriage.

Honestly, the majority of Christians would probably say that a "good Christian" is someone who believes in Jesus really hard. But the Bible disagrees.

[Elf Lord Chiewn]

Calmer

Elf Lord Chiewn

I'd go even further to say that it is not the blessing of the church which sanctifies - or even validates - a marriage. It's God, the legal system, or a combination of the two, as far as I'm concerned. While the legal system cannot sanctify a marriage, God can. While the legal system allows marriage, it is validated, at least in a secular sense. While God allows marriage, it is validated in the divine sense. The church marriage ceremonies are meant to be before God, but by no means must marriage be done before men, or with the silly customs pinned to it in popular culture.

Ah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was the Churches intrinsically which blessed the marriage: rather that the Churches were the middle man, as it were, in requesting God's blessing upon the union.

The churches are the followers of Yeshua. The blessing may be requested by many people or just those looking to partner. Provided, of course, that God's blessing is something that needs to be petitioned for. As I understand it, in Ye Olde Biblical Tymes, people were single, got it on, and were married ever after.

Calmer

Elf Lord Chiewn

This, of course, makes me heretical as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. I'll see about formulating something to clarify my position.

(apostate actually, unless you've been baptised) The Sacrament is a fairly big one for the Catholics, and there are a few verses from Paul's letters (and possibly Mark I think) as regards the 'Christian' side of matrimony that I'll try and dredge up when I'm not tied up with university course research.

I'll look forward to it.

[apocalypticangel]

I had to do a double take when I saw the thread. It was confusing as hell to see Elf Lord's name and the topic title changed. Of course I figured it out now.

That being said, I am in complete agreement. Homosexuality is NOT a sin and therefore any Christian who judges, condemns, or who otherwise makes life more difficult for them... is a BAD Christian.

Of course while I am here, I may as well provide some scripture on the matter, as I love to do. Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn , and you will not be condemned ; pardon, and you will be pardoned. Mt 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Romans 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone * of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And I don't even like Paul! Oh yeah there is that whole 'love your neighbor' thing, which appears in Matthew 5:43, 19:19, 22:39, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27, Romans 13:9, Galatians 5:14, and James 2:8.

Deep Vermillion

It seems to be in the Recycle Bin, actually. Did someone bump an even older debate on homosexual marriage or something?

A few days ago, I recall seeing another thread on homosexuality that I haven't seen in ages, if I'm not mistaken. As Elf Lord said, there have been a great deal of old threads being bumped back to the top lately.

[PoeticVengeance]

Judas L. Blackthorn

I'm a bad Christian, but a good Satanist :-O

I'm against Gay Marriage and I'm all for protecting the sanctity of marriage.
As long as I have the right to vote, my vote will always be "NO"!

Define "sanctity".

And then justify using that word in relation to a secular process that makes it easier for couples to function and recieve certain rights and benefits by entering a commited relationship through marriage.

[PoeticVengeance]

RonnieRoswell

I may not agree with it but at the same time I am not going to judge a person for it. If they want to be gay, then I say let them by all means but at the same time I don't agree.

Keep in mind that it has nothing to do with wanting to be or not wanting to be homosexual.

Those urges are yours whether you want them or not.

[PoeticVengeance]

IceDust3

So I agree with most of the stuff that you said, but are you not judging your fellow man right now by calling them a bad Christian? Gay is gay we all have something that is untrue about are selves...and no one on this earth can 'cast the first stone' either way...but others see things quite differently and are entitled to ...based on the teaching and beliefs...

that was a mouth-full...sorry for the ramble sweatdrop

Key here is that Christians are specifically called to not judge their fellow man.

As an Etherist I have no such rule.

[Marshal67]

lol

Oh God, I knew it would happen, I just did not know which of us would do it.

Anyway, I completely agree, to a point. It probably does not make you a "bad" Christian. I do not believe in levels of Christendom; I believe in Christian and Non-Christian.

But other than that spot on old chap wink

Oh, and I forgot. Since I am a bit miffed at being left out, here is a link to my profile with more information in it.

[PoeticVengeance]

Calmer

You don't seem to distinguish between marriage as a legal term and a social construct, and the Christian form of marriage as a religious term and construct. Or are you saying that some of the vows taken within many Christian marital situations (including, I believe, that God blesses the union, and the relationship created between God and the couple) are just made up by the pastors? Are you going to address, for example, its position as a Sacrament, in the case of the Catholic Church?

He is actually referring to the Christian form of marriage as a religious term and construct.

Christians have no right to do anything about secular marriage, as it has nothing to do with religion.

What he (and most of us) are stating is the following.

There is no biblical reason for any Christian sect to consider homosexuality wrong, and to prevent homosexual marriages to occur within the church, as well as outside of it.

So Christians that do so are bad Christians because they are going outside of the teachings of Christ, and even outright ignoring them in some cases.

The Catholic Church is especially guilty of this, as its dogmatic law contradicts Scripture in a lot of cases.

Quote:

Although some Christians do wish for non-heterosexual unions to be prevented from happening altogether in their countries (and therefore refer to marriage as a 'Christian institution' hence the straw man), there's a lot more concern about the types of marriage allowed within their denomination.

We know.

Quote:

It would, after all, be ridiculous to put Churches in a position where they must bless marriages that their religions do not approve of, be they remarriages of legally (but not religiously) divorced Christians, or of non-heterosexual nature.

He's not saying (nor am I or any other) that Christian churches should be forced to bless marriages of divorced peoples or homosexuals.

He's saying that any Christian church that does not endorse a marriage between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is not following Christianity at all, but a form of Puesdo-Christianity.

This is more of a "shame on you, churches, for not actually following Jesus" thread then a "We will make you do this" thread

[PoeticVengeance]

Calmer

Morluna

I'm glad to see this is back.

True. Repeat topics are awesome like woah. 3nodding

Kind of requires an active previous topic to be a repeat.

As opposed to a previous removed topic that got nailed with spammers and idiots and boxed as a result.

[Elf Lord Chiewn]

It had to be done. Good to see you in here, Marshal.

What, then, must a person keep to in order to be Christian?
And what happens after someone messes up?

[PoeticVengeance]

Elf Lord Chiewn

This, of course, makes me heretical as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. I'll see about formulating something to clarify my position.

Considering that a good amount of the Catholic Church's dogmatic laws are blasphemous against the Scriptures, I think all the justification you need is that going randomly against Scripture is bad to negate the heresy charge.

[Elf Lord Chiewn]

PoeticVengeance

Elf Lord Chiewn

This, of course, makes me heretical as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. I'll see about formulating something to clarify my position.

Considering that a good amount of the Catholic Church's dogmatic laws are blasphemous against the Scriptures, I think all the justification you need is that going randomly against Scripture is bad to negate the heresy charge.

Making the Church's position an appeal to authority.

I daresay that many of its rules and teachings are less than justified. 3nodding

[PoeticVengeance]

fuzzycandy

You are definlenty wrong by saying I'm a bad christian because I don't think Gay marriage is right.

Your support verses, the ones 'Love youe neighbor' doesn't mean we have to support homosexuality.

What about the ones that detail how Christ fulfilled mosaic law and replaced it through that fulfillment?

Because the only parts of the Bible that might treat homosexuality as bad are in Mosaic Law.

Quote:

yes Like the bible says I should love a murderer, just not love what the murderer was doing.

Because Jesus taught not to cause harm to others and not to kill.

Where did Jesus say that homosexuality is wrong?

Quote:

you are NOT a bad christian though AT ALL. you can be immature in your faith or be unwise about christiananity, but we all suffer from sins, and I still don't think it's a sin to be against gay marriage.

Actually the word bad here is used in the same context as bad plumber or bad truck driver.

If you don't believe that water moves through pipes, you're a bad plumber.

If you haven't read the parts of the Bible that detailed what it means to be messiah, and continue to follow the incorrect laws because of that then you are pretty bad at being a Christian.

Quote:

Even if it WAS a sin, then we wouldn't be bad christians. BECAUSE that would mean every christian was a bad one since they all suffer from any ONE sin

Once again, bad is being used in terms of your skill at your "job" of being a Christian.

If a painter doesn't paint well then he isn't a good painter, if a Christian believes things that Jesus didn't teach based on rules that he replaced, then they aren't a very good Christian.

[PoeticVengeance]

Elf Lord Chiewn

PoeticVengeance

Elf Lord Chiewn

This, of course, makes me heretical as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. I'll see about formulating something to clarify my position.

Considering that a good amount of the Catholic Church's dogmatic laws are blasphemous against the Scriptures, I think all the justification you need is that going randomly against Scripture is bad to negate the heresy charge.

Making the Church's position an appeal to authority.

I daresay that many of its rules and teachings are less than justified. 3nodding

Hear that boys and girls?

Using the position of the Catholic Church, Catholic Dogma, and the Cathechism to support an argument against homosexuality from the Christian perspective is fallacious.

So don't do it.

And yeah, Elf, I agree the Catholic Church's laws make very little sense from any perspective even a Scriptural one.

(Although they do make sense from the perspective of control and power over the population)

[Elf Lord Chiewn]

PoeticVengeance

Elf Lord Chiewn

PoeticVengeance

Elf Lord Chiewn

This, of course, makes me heretical as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. I'll see about formulating something to clarify my position.

Considering that a good amount of the Catholic Church's dogmatic laws are blasphemous against the Scriptures, I think all the justification you need is that going randomly against Scripture is bad to negate the heresy charge.

Making the Church's position an appeal to authority.

I daresay that many of its rules and teachings are less than justified. 3nodding

Hear that boys and girls?

Using the position of the Catholic Church, Catholic Dogma, and the Cathechism to support an argument against homosexuality from the Christian perspective is fallacious.

So don't do it.

And yeah, Elf, I agree the Catholic Church's laws make very little sense from any perspective even a Scriptural one.

(Although they do make sense from the perspective of control and power over the population)

Indeed, and many signs seem to point in that direction, though that is an assertion I am not currently willing to make.

I find it amusing that the Catholic Church doesn't like marriages that don't involve two Christians, but that baptism makes you count as one forever. It's as though someone realized that Levitical Law wasn't valid any more and tried desperately to make a new set of rules that would mimic their long-winded flavor.