If you are against gay marriage, you are a bad Christian.

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Elf Lord Chiewn

deadmanjake

This was recently sent to me, and it has a connection to what we are discussing.

I]http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/24864/Fox_News_Baptist_Protestor.html?autoplay=true

I can count on one finger the time I have agreed with any stand Sean Hannity has taken, and that program is it.

I detest that woman and everything she stands for, and I wonder that she continues to walk the earth long past her expiration date.
I agree here with the Sean Hannity thing, saying "You`re insain" to that woman may be a little of the pot calling the kettle black but it`s the truest statement he`s made in his career.

I don`t hate and I don`t anger easy but this angers me, I still don`t hate but I am truely perplexed over the logic or really lackthereof that her church has put into this. Does she not realize the USA Government agrees with her, that the majority of people and voters are fighting tooth and nail to keep Homosexual marrages banned and if anything are working towards making homosexuality illegal again.
Since this is the case in her country why would she DARE say that God is killing solders as Punishment in the USA?
I mean if thats the spin she has to take for the death of her countrymen fine but wouldn`t one then think "Oh s**t God is killing people! What are we currently doing? Going to war... Oppressing Homosexuals... HMM MAYBE IT`S THAT!`

[Lykus]

Marshal67

Ishi Giant

FREE WILL!

Can you prove we have free will darling?

Concerning the nature of free will vs. determinism, the truth and the knowing of the truth of that matter really has no verifiable consequences. In as much as we have free will, it is either actual free will as per the definition, or it is illusory free will as per determinism, in which case we still have it, illusory though it may be.

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tylara67

Kulie Abell

NO! Gays are gay!

...the ******** does that mean???

That when people embrace their sexuality they can find happy and fullfilling lives.

*Sage nod*

Or it can traslate to "I`m a raving loony!"

Take you pick

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Lil sodapop

Gay is wrong. And so is judging. so don't tell me I'm a bad christian. I don't judge gays. I just think it's wrong. God made man and woman to come together, get married and become one, then have children. and god has a special person out there for everybody. God would not put a man with a man or a woman with a woman. If anybody is gay then they need mental help.

...

I really hope this is sarcasam because if it`s not then someone needs to figure out what the word "Judging" means...

[Marshal67]

Lykus

Marshal67

Ishi Giant

FREE WILL!

Can you prove we have free will darling?

Concerning the nature of free will vs. determinism, the truth and the knowing of the truth of that matter really has no verifiable consequences. In as much as we have free will, it is either actual free will as per the definition, or it is illusory free will as per determinism, in which case we still have it, illusory though it may be.

This all may true, but can we not just have been predesinted to think and reason that way?

I think it is impossible to tell, as you posed. It could be an illusion, as so it could be fact.

[Lykus]

Marshal67

Lykus

Marshal67

Ishi Giant

FREE WILL!

Can you prove we have free will darling?

Concerning the nature of free will vs. determinism, the truth and the knowing of the truth of that matter really has no verifiable consequences. In as much as we have free will, it is either actual free will as per the definition, or it is illusory free will as per determinism, in which case we still have it, illusory though it may be.

This all may true, but can we not just have been predesinted to think and reason that way?

I think it is impossible to tell, as you posed. It could be an illusion, as so it could be fact.

That's all possible, but it still doesn't change the fact that the consequences of this are unverifiable. I mean, barring the idea of Many Worlds Interpretation, events only have one true outcome, regardless of whether the universe is deterministic or not. The only real difference I can think of is that people could use determinism to claim no responsibility (Faulty reasoning, in my opinion, as the ability to explain something does not automatically relieve oneself of accountability) but even in a world of free will people would do this.

(Edit: and even with Many Worlds Interpretation, every possible outcome for every event happens, so there's still no difference.)

Anyway, this is mostly offtopic.

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Emeraldemily

1 ) I don't care for Anael's thesis. It is one persons opinion and not rock solid.

And yet that the funny thing, Until someone can come up with an argument against it it`s not an opinion, it`s a Theory, so until you can prove the theory wrong it`s a kind of fact. It`s not like he`s saying "This is so because I say so" there are resons there that you can argue against and if you can`t argue against them then maybe somethings wrong with you and not him.

Quote:

2 ) How can you point fingers at Christians who hold high thier morals and beliefs, when you yourself are breaking such a Biblical law as, Thou shalt NOT judge, the very same one you are accusing us of doing.

Well first off, no one here claimed not to be a hypocryt. Nor has everyone in here claimed to be Christian either.

PLUS

Pointing out the Bible says nothing about Homosexuality is not a judgement call per say but simply a sharing of knowledge, calling someone a Bad Christian is a judgement call however which is why I stand to say that the people who activly think homosexuality is a sin are not Bad Christians simply Not Christians. Which then isn`t a judgement but a statement of facts. You can call yourself a bird till you`re blue in the face but untill you grow some feathers and a beak you`re just another wino on the street.

Quote:

You can not in good respect say that God allows Homosexual acts

Considering that everything that engages in Homosexuals Acts dosn`t burst into flames I`m willing to hazard that yea God allows for them, But that`s all part and parcel with that free will thing, God allows for all sorts of s**t to happen.

Quote:

and we, in the same right, can not say that He does not allow Homosexual acts. You have no solid proof and neither do we, so all we can do is go on believe in what WE CHOOSE to believe and not what others THINK we should believe in.

Funny thing is that to claim to be a Christian you kind of have to obay the Commands set by Christ and Judging to the extent of oppressing Homosexuals based on something that someone else made up.
Well needless to say that`s not really following Christ`s commands...

Quote:

America is the land of the free and in no right do you have the ability to push someone down for thier beliefs.

Just as Christians have no rights to force their beliefs to infringe on the rights and liberties of others?
ZANY, so it seems you`re pro Gay marrage then huh?

Quote:

Now, I MUST make myself clear...the problem of your finger pointing is that it is pointed at the wrong thing. You have taken one thing and twisted it horribly. God asks us to love thy neighbor. Yes, in my heart I love the whores, the murderers, and the rapists, BUT I DO NOT love what they so or what they stand for. In my belief, I DO NOT love what Homosexual people stand for. They, in my mind are commiting a sin, and continuing to do so with the idea that the black hearted world will stand behind them, which they are. You have no right to tell me what to believe and what not to believe, neither me to you. Judgment is left to God alone. So stop being so childish and leave us to believe what we want. You have nothing to stand on when judging who is a good Christian or not.
A little saying comes to mind..."the pot calling the kettle black."
Please, for the sake of sanity, let this lifless subject DIE! I can guarantee that it will NEVER be settled.

Not unless people are willing to scrutanize their own bigotry.
To hate what they are or what they do or anything about them is to hate a flaw in the hevenly creator for you cannot look upon a man and say "Brother I love you but I hate your existance" How can you love someone yet hate their actions? How can there ever be love when they have been marred by that hate? Love is not approval, love is not permission, love is not saying "do this or do that" Love simply IS. And to pesonally or even with any justification say something is right or wrong in your or even God's view is to make a Judgement call on God.
This is a very tough decision to make, because it not only compels a Christian not to judge wheather something like lieing, stealing or yes, even homosexuality is right or wrong, but simply love them.
Paul outlines what love is in 1 Cor 13, speaking that love and works out of love are greater then hope and faith.
Faith, so even one's faith in the Bible, or faith in what they believe must fall short, become the second man to love, and as I stated above, if you love, HOW can you judge any action as right or wrong?
Bookmark page 15 gotta go to work

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Lil sodapop

and god has a special person out there for everybody.

Prove it. I'll accept verses.
Yannoo oddly enough that one there proves once again God Loves lesbians since once again the world population is leaning towards majority women by quite a few thousand...

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FreeArsenal

linaloki

I've read it. It says to me that Christians should concern themselves with the people of the world that are hurting as opposed to blabbing on about stuff that they shouldn't be. Such as things that cause hurt to people.

If you feel I am causing hurt, then I appologize. I feel that people are causing much larger hurts, however, by judging, hating, and despising homosexuals.

In response you choose to judge them as to whether they're a good or bad Christian?

I don't feel you're hurting people, I just feel you can do a better job. smile

By deeming them Not Christians (As there is not such thing as a bad Christian)
Are we denying them rights?
Are we treating them as bad people?
Are we blaiming natural disasters on them? Wars? Desieses?
Is our bigotry towards their plight going to have them dealing with depression later in life because deep down they fear that maybe they were BORN wrong and their very thoughts and emotions will lead them to an eternal afterlife of torment?
Will anyone go kill themselves because we said they`re a bad/not a Christian?
Will hearing about our thoughts towards the Bible cause them to turn away from Christianity, Renounce their God and hate all other Christians?
No?

Then beyond maybe forcing a person to look at themselves and consider their faith we are not harming anyone in any way.
Unlike telling someone that while you love them they may go to hell, well I`ve SEEN the hurt that causes for everyone involved...

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cherrymastadon

it was an honest question, I wanted to know how many people in here have attended a bible college.

I have, In fact Theology was directly my Minor to boot. Luthren Collage as well which while it has the official stance of being against homosexuality any of my Theology teachers with half a braincell agreed with my assesment of the bible which comes to the conclusion that Homosexuality is unmentioned or is only mentioned in such vauge situations that to take that as a condement would force one to go hand in hand with condeming Hetrosexuality.

Quote:

i don't really have anything else to say about the subject in my own opinion, i stated it, it's done.

It`s my opinion that you`re a blueberry muffen of creamy goodness.

See isn`t it funny at how unfounded opinions can be wrong?

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cherrymastadon

my first reason is that this is the first time, ever, that this argument has been presented to me this way, and I need time to think/pray about it and research it myself. As of right now, my stance is that it is someone else's opinion, someone else's interpretation. I will say that it looks and sounds legitimate.
For example. I agree with the whole thing about leviticus not applying to us anymore. But it is my opinion that the three words that do not necessarily mean homosexuality, just might. It depends on who is interpreting it. "effeminate pervert" "man, bed" it sounds like homosexuality. the key word is SOUNDS. maybe it's not. maybe it is. but right now the only solid "proof" i have that homosexuality is a sin is what acts says, and i need to look at it a little closer, by what is stated here. i hope that will suffice

Well in any situation that is a very Christian standpoint and I`ll thank you for your consideration and openness into into the topic.

If you have any questions, concerns or counter arguments please feel free to direct them into the thread, Someone will address them and hey once in a while they may be polite about it too.
*Non-chalantly eyes Poe, Elf and Peer*

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FreeArsenal

Eh, I have a question... if people who actually believe the Bible are wrong in interpreting it, how can I trust that people who do not believe in it are interpreting it right?

And how can I trust that one person's written thesis is correct above all the other thesii (is that a word) out there?

Well there are some ways of thinking about that.

First if you are reading within a Christian perspective read Mark Matthew Luke and John.

Focus mostly on what Jesus says and really consider what that guy was all about, Heck even go as far as to JUST write out was he says and then cross examine what was repeated. The stuff that was said the most times (And said the same) will probably be the most important stuff.

Then whenever listening to someone elses inturpretation consider
How are they getting their information?
Are they being historically accuret in the intuperetation.
Does it sound plausable.

And finally the most important part.
Considering what Jesus said, and the type of person he seemed to be baised on what he said. Do you think he would agree or disagree with this inturperatation.

So Jesus speaks about love.
So if the intuperatation would cause people to hate something, it`s probably not JC approved.
If the intuperatation demands people accept those not normally accepted into society, to include the unincluded, and demands that people think and love and care for one another.
The I`d hazard a guess that maybe that`s the one you should go with.

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PoeticVengeance

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PoeticVengeance

Elf Lord Chiewn

PoeticVengeance

Elf Lord Chiewn

This, of course, makes me heretical as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. I'll see about formulating something to clarify my position.

Considering that a good amount of the Catholic Church's dogmatic laws are blasphemous against the Scriptures, I think all the justification you need is that going randomly against Scripture is bad to negate the heresy charge.

Making the Church's position an appeal to authority.

I daresay that many of its rules and teachings are less than justified. 3nodding

Hear that boys and girls?

Using the position of the Catholic Church, Catholic Dogma, and the Cathechism to support an argument against homosexuality from the Christian perspective is fallacious.

So don't do it.

And yeah, Elf, I agree the Catholic Church's laws make very little sense from any perspective even a Scriptural one.

(Although they do make sense from the perspective of control and power over the population)

Part of the fun fun of the Catholic Church is that they have this circular scripture from John

Basically they say Jesus says Peter has well.. God`s power.
And because they (Pope) decends from peter and Has Gods Power they have the power to say they they were given the power,

So because they say that the line is true and the line says they tell the truth the line then is true.

...
Yea anyway that is the only thing the RCC has holding them up when it comes to WHY their allowed to make decisions that are not really scripturally founded or add to scripture. Which is a whole OTHER kettle of fish in which I find them suspiciously close to claiming they are God.

I don`t trust the Roman Catholic Church at all. The weirdest thing is most Roman Catholics agree with me but the whole Tradition thing keeps them there...

Yeah the RCC is a fun little paradoxical crazy time.

Yea it`s a little insaine, The funniest thing is they also have this "Tradition" clause hidden away somewhere where basically IT states that because they`ve had *blank* opinion it must be true because yanno it`s old and s**t.

So when people finally turned around and said "Wait! that dosn`t make sense why are we listening to you??" they reply with

Because you did before so why stop now?

And people AGREE with this.

ARGH SHEEP!

I think it comes down to the whole RCC dosn`t make you think, agree with what they say, sign the dotted line, pay some money once inna boo and you don`t acctually have to try and be a good person, just continue ignoring the plight of the world and you`ve still got your golden ticket to hell Heaven.

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Elf Lord Chiewn

At least they've got you, Sapph.

Now to get rid of their bigotry...

Althought the downside is that Sapph is now the person those "I`m not a bigot, I have a gay friend" guys are talking about.


Just because you have a friend that`s gay dosn`t mean *They* think youre not a bigot...

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Natas Ferret

deadmanjake

ty_ping

angel_magic2007

IceDust3

True..you've got me there...but some laws dont apply to todays world. So here is the questions how does one decide what laws to follow and which ones not to?

The old laws set up by Moses was outsetted by Christ death on the cross. Jesus when preaching marriage and divorce never talked about homosexual marriage. Hebrews 13:4 says very clearly that sexual immorality is wrong ande is punishable by God. Hebrews 13:4 "Marriage should be homored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge tghe adulterer and all the sexually immoral."

Anyone else find it ironic that one one had she says the Torah is no longer valid due to Jesus, and then turns around and quotes from the Torah as her justification against homosexuality?

Is it Irony or just Ignorance? Do tell us please, because that makes my head hurt.

Er, Hebrews is in the New Testament.

However, I don't see how the verse quoted applies to homosexual marriages.

oh snap well nevermind...

Still non applicable anyway.