If you are against gay marriage, you are a bad Christian.

[IcarusDream]

Anarchist Miracle

IcarusDream

I always thought that arsenokoites was a pretty clear reference to Lev 18:22 of the LXX (which was the OT source used, read, and cited by the NT patriarchs):

Lev 18:22 LXX: "καὶ μετὰ ἄρσενος οὐ κοιμηθήσῃ κοίτην γυναικός βδέλυγμα γάρ ἐστιν"

And what should we see but arsenos and koiten? Note also the verb κοιμηθήσῃ from the same root.

Surely not the "proof" anyone is looking for, but interesting nonetheless.

I wonder what other verses use the words arsenos and koiten, and if there are any others in which they both appear.

Other forms or words rooted on these two appear in these places:

Lev 18:22 - Men violating the marriage bed (koiten) by sleeping with other men
Lev 20:13 - Same as previous
Numbers 5:20 - Woman violating the marriage bed (koiten...) by sleeping with men (arsenos) who are not her husband
Numbers 31:17 - Kill every woman who slept in bed (koiten) with a man (arsenos); essentially kill all non-virgins, so you know that you have truly wiped out your enemy, lest any of the non-virgins be pregnant.
Judges 21:11 - Same as previous. A construction to say: "not a virgin"

Quote:

Not really, considering that this is also to be expected if Leviticus is referring to temple prostitution and "arsenokoites" refers to pederasty.

I do not believe either of those things. You should try to show me how you come to think of them with any certainty.

Also, how would it be any less interesting that the same language is used even if your two suppositions are correct? I find the use of the verb koimethese most interesting. It perhaps lends most credence to the translation of "men who lie with men," koimethese being of the verb meaning "to lie (with)."

[Tactivity]

And what if I'm not Christian? I was just addressing your title (since you clarified what you meant in your first post)

[linaloki]

IcarusDream

Anarchist Miracle

IcarusDream

I always thought that arsenokoites was a pretty clear reference to Lev 18:22 of the LXX (which was the OT source used, read, and cited by the NT patriarchs):

Lev 18:22 LXX: "καὶ μετὰ ἄρσενος οὐ κοιμηθήσῃ κοίτην γυναικός βδέλυγμα γάρ ἐστιν"

And what should we see but arsenos and koiten? Note also the verb κοιμηθήσῃ from the same root.

Surely not the "proof" anyone is looking for, but interesting nonetheless.

I wonder what other verses use the words arsenos and koiten, and if there are any others in which they both appear.

Other forms or words rooted on these two appear in these places:

Lev 18:22 - Men violating the marriage bed (koiten) by sleeping with other men
Lev 20:13 - Same as previous
Numbers 5:20 - Woman violating the marriage bed (koiten...) by sleeping with men (arsenos) who are not her husband
Numbers 31:17 - Kill every woman who slept in bed (koiten) with a man (arsenos); essentially kill all non-virgins, so you know that you have truly wiped out your enemy, lest any of the non-virgins be pregnant.
Judges 21:11 - Same as previous. A construction to say: "not a virgin"

Quote:

Not really, considering that this is also to be expected if Leviticus is referring to temple prostitution and "arsenokoites" refers to pederasty.

I do not believe either of those things. You should try to show me how you come to think of them with any certainty.

Also, how would it be any less interesting that the same language is used even if your two suppositions are correct? I find the use of the verb koimethese most interesting. It perhaps lends most credence to the translation of "men who lie with men," koimethese being of the verb meaning "to lie (with)."

You might find this interpretation interesting.

[IcarusDream]

linaloki

You might find this interpretation interesting.

What a dangerous way to go about interpretation! I think you might just as easily start generalizing (what I call this method) the laws of the Pentateuch so that more things are apparently prohibited!

But it is interesting, of course. The ancient Rabbis were incredibly clever. They had to be; but I have few doubts whether R. Ishmael would reject this argument.

[jaden kendam]

Tactivity

And what if I'm not Christian? I was just addressing your title (since you clarified what you meant in your first post)

Then you aren't a bad Christian?

[Totrue-Tufaar]

If you aren't a Christian, don't concern yourself with these things. As long as you don't hurt people or try to force false views like the first post here on others, then you go along with your life.

[jaden kendam]

Totrue-Tufaar

If you aren't a Christian, don't concern yourself with these things. As long as you don't hurt people or try to force false views like the first post here on others, then you go along with your life.

What do you mean by false views like the first post?

[Totrue-Tufaar]

The begining posts ignore multiple instances in the Bible that counter his claims. These cover what marriage is, that Christians are to judge and help other Christians, that you can not practice homosexuality and be right with God, and so forth. When I brought up some of the verses in this thread in the past I was scoffed and sneered at, with claims that they were covered in the begining page. Most of them were not, and those that were had biases from the thread creator. There are the matters of him using a quasi-ethnic slur, claiming that non-Jews don't know the Bible as well as Jews.

[linaloki]

Totrue-Tufaar

The begining posts ignore multiple instances in the Bible that counter his claims. These cover what marriage is, that Christians are to judge and help other Christians, that you can not practice homosexuality and be right with God, and so forth. When I brought up some of the verses in this thread in the past I was scoffed and sneered at, with claims that they were covered in the begining page. Most of them were not, and those that were had biases from the thread creator. There are the matters of him using a quasi-ethnic slur, claiming that non-Jews don't know the Bible as well as Jews.

Where is marriage defined in the Bible, and as what?

Where are Christians told they are to judge, and in what instances?

Where does the Bible condemn homosexuality (the attraction to the same sex)?

[Totrue-Tufaar]

linaloki

Totrue-Tufaar

The begining posts ignore multiple instances in the Bible that counter his claims. These cover what marriage is, that Christians are to judge and help other Christians, that you can not practice homosexuality and be right with God, and so forth. When I brought up some of the verses in this thread in the past I was scoffed and sneered at, with claims that they were covered in the begining page. Most of them were not, and those that were had biases from the thread creator. There are the matters of him using a quasi-ethnic slur, claiming that non-Jews don't know the Bible as well as Jews.

Where is marriage defined in the Bible, and as what?

Where are Christians told they are to judge, and in what instances?

Where does the Bible condemn homosexuality (the attraction to the same sex)?
1. As I don't keep a list of the verses with me I can not immediatly find the verse mentioning specifically that it will be one man and one woman, but I can find multiple places refering to married couples as such. If you can find anywhere were homosexual marriage is supported, apparently without sex as that is banned with no exceptions, then please show me.
2. This page has many verses refering to judgement. http://www.thestormshelter.net/judging.html
3. Leviticus 18:22, right there with no beastiality and the indepth description of who having sex with is considered incest.

[Tactivity]

jaden kendam

Tactivity

And what if I'm not Christian? I was just addressing your title (since you clarified what you meant in your first post)

Then you aren't a bad Christian?

Apparently

[jaden kendam]

Totrue-Tufaar

1. As I don't keep a list of the verses with me I can not immediatly find the verse mentioning specifically that it will be one man and one woman, but I can find multiple places refering to married couples as such. If you can find anywhere were homosexual marriage is supported, apparently without sex as that is banned with no exceptions, then please show me.

Don't have to show in the bible that homosexual is supported, just have to show that the bible doesn't condemn it.

Totrue-Tufaar

13. Leviticus 18:22, right there with no beastiality and the indepth description of who having sex with is considered incest.

Using this verse means you have ignored Collosians 2 and Deutoronomy 4:1-30. Pretty sure this verse was covered in the opening.

[Totrue-Tufaar]

The person did mention that he was using his own translations, correct? And that he is no expert.

[linaloki]

Totrue-Tufaar

linaloki

Totrue-Tufaar

The begining posts ignore multiple instances in the Bible that counter his claims. These cover what marriage is, that Christians are to judge and help other Christians, that you can not practice homosexuality and be right with God, and so forth. When I brought up some of the verses in this thread in the past I was scoffed and sneered at, with claims that they were covered in the begining page. Most of them were not, and those that were had biases from the thread creator. There are the matters of him using a quasi-ethnic slur, claiming that non-Jews don't know the Bible as well as Jews.

Where is marriage defined in the Bible, and as what?

Where are Christians told they are to judge, and in what instances?

Where does the Bible condemn homosexuality (the attraction to the same sex)?

1. As I don't keep a list of the verses with me I can not immediatly find the verse mentioning specifically that it will be one man and one woman, but I can find multiple places refering to married couples as such. If you can find anywhere were homosexual marriage is supported, apparently without sex as that is banned with no exceptions, then please show me.
2. This page has many verses refering to judgement. http://www.thestormshelter.net/judging.html
3. Leviticus 18:22, right there with no beastiality and the indepth description of who having sex with is considered incest.

1. And I can already off the top of my head simply mention Israel and David as examples of polygamy that makes the "one man, one woman" theory suspect.
2. That website rather proves Elfy's point. Yes, one should judge in a discerning way. However, the judging condemned by Elfy, myself, Jesus Christ and that website is the type most often used when people judge, especially concerning sin. "Using people’s sin as an excuse to lower or belittle them. Harsh punishment without encouragement to follow. Cursing a person or prophesying destruction into their lives. Sentencing with no mercy. Correcting someone when guilty of the same thing." Treating homosexuals as something lesser, as unequal, certainly fits in this segment.
3. That mentions nothing of either attraction or lesbians, which makes the claim that it condemns homosexuality somewhat laughable.