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dice_14
I used to agree with this thread until I read this
http://www.layhands.com/IsHomosexualityASin.htm
Please post individual arguments from a source. To post an entire website without elaborating is just rude.

Quote:
but how do you know if theres 'bad' christians
check dictionary.com OR websters.
One definition for 'bad' is
2. having a wicked or evil character; morally reprehensible
I would assume that Elf Lord and the other regs on this thread are using this definition:
Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: 1bad
Pronunciation: 'bad
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): worse /'w&rs/; worst /'w&rst/
Etymology: Middle English
1 a : failing to reach an acceptable standard : POOR


Quote:
So theres such thing as a wicked christian?
If you looked in the bible, God never spoke of christians not being any good (from what I know of)
Considering that the term Christian didn't exist when most of the Biblical books were written. But let us not forget that Yeshua spoke very poorly of the Phaisees, and who used to be a Pharisee? Paul of Taurus.

Quote:
What a christian is is believing in God and that he died for your sins. can you believe that God died for your sons in a BAD way?

Show me in the bible what defines a bad christian and a good one, please.
Matthew 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law ?"

22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.

22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

If you are not following these laws, then you are a bad Christian, by the definition that I have provided.
dice_14
I used to agree with this thread until I read this
http://www.layhands.com/IsHomosexualityASin.htm


Everything in that website has been countered by material in the first and second post.

In detail.

Read them.

Quote:

but how do you know if theres 'bad' christians
check dictionary.com OR websters.
One definition for 'bad' is
2. having a wicked or evil character; morally reprehensible


Another definition for bad is this:

Incapable at showing the expected aspects of said category or label.


That fits a Christian that doesn't read and follow the Scriptures

Hence you are a bad Christian

Quote:

So theres such thing as a wicked christian?


Quite a few actually. Of course, being a wicked Christian would be being a bad Christian too, as Christians are not supposed to be wicked.

Quote:

If you looked in the bible, God never spoke of christians not being any good (from what I know of)

What a christian is is believing in God and that he died for your sins. can you believe that God died for your sons in a BAD way?

Show me in the bible what defines a bad christian and a good one, please.


The Bible tells you how to be a Christian.

You aren't good at it if you don't believe homosexuality is not a sin.
linaloki's avatar
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PoeticVengeance
IceDust3
PoeticVengeance
IceDust3
If your true to god ...your going to play by his rules ALL of them.
If your untrue you pick and choose which one you want to!

By the by you didn't comment on the whole 'what right do you have to judge them' thing.


And one of his rules tells you that the Old Laws are now no longer applicable.

So you appear to be ignoring that important one.


So if there is a law that says that the old laws no longer apply, then why do we have Seventh Day Adventists?


Because people are exceedingly bad at reading the older translations.


And because people are bad at knowing what they're talking about. Can't forget that.
linaloki
PoeticVengeance
IceDust3
PoeticVengeance
IceDust3
If your true to god ...your going to play by his rules ALL of them.
If your untrue you pick and choose which one you want to!

By the by you didn't comment on the whole 'what right do you have to judge them' thing.


And one of his rules tells you that the Old Laws are now no longer applicable.

So you appear to be ignoring that important one.


So if there is a law that says that the old laws no longer apply, then why do we have Seventh Day Adventists?


Because people are exceedingly bad at reading the older translations.


And because people are bad at knowing what they're talking about. Can't forget that.


Yep. Can't forget about that at all.

^^
Morluna
I'm glad to see this is back.


u guys are somethng else
linaloki's avatar
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JakeJekal83
Morluna
I'm glad to see this is back.


u guys are somethng else


Could you please contribute to the topic at hand?
I may not agree with the issue of gay marriage, but I see the issue of divorce to be a far more pressing concern to me.
Son of Krypton
I may not agree with the issue of gay marriage, but I see the issue of divorce to be a far more pressing concern to me.

Well, since divorce isn't the issue at hand, could you expand on why you do not agree with the issue of gay marriage?
SoundDoctrine
Son of Krypton
I may not agree with the issue of gay marriage, but I see the issue of divorce to be a far more pressing concern to me.

Well, since divorce isn't the issue at hand, could you expand on why you do not agree with the issue of gay marriage?
Ok, I'll see what I can do, though I haven't heard exactly what it would entail in great detail.

I believe that the actual act of homosexuality is wrong, because it takes place outside of the current boundaries of marriage. I refuse to get into the discussion of whether God doesn't like homosexuals or not, becauswe I believe he loves everyone, and Fred Phelps out at that psycho church in Kansas is probably headed to hell faster than the gays he hates. But I digress.

The institution of marriage has been around longer than any other institution in history, before religion, and certainly before any type of government. The anthropological record has many examples of male-female pairing for life for protection, companionship, and the good old roll in the hay every once and again. I don't know if they found any evidence of same-sex pairings, but if they did, they didn't last more than one generation, simply because of the biological implications of being unable to reproduce.

Personally, I don't understand the mentality if a homosexual individual, simply because I'm not one, and I can't understand what I'm not very well. But I do know they want companionship, and either a biological function, or maybe some kind of psychological episode occurred at a young age, and now they find the same sex attractive for some reason.

I feel same-sex marriage could be very damaging to the family because it affects so many different things in culture. It could teach that the traditional gender roles of a father and mother are unnecessary, forone. I've also heard people compare it to interracial marriages and things of that nature. However, racism is about keeping races apart, whereas marriage is about bringing people together. In addition, they've done studies of interracial children and single-sex household children, and while interracial children have little problems adjusting to "normal" life, children raised with two mothers or fathers have a considerable harder time about it.
Son of Krypton
SoundDoctrine
Son of Krypton
I may not agree with the issue of gay marriage, but I see the issue of divorce to be a far more pressing concern to me.

Well, since divorce isn't the issue at hand, could you expand on why you do not agree with the issue of gay marriage?
Ok, I'll see what I can do, though I haven't heard exactly what it would entail in great detail.

I believe that the actual act of homosexuality is wrong, because it takes place outside of the current boundaries of marriage. I refuse to get into the discussion of whether God doesn't like homosexuals or not, becauswe I believe he loves everyone, and Fred Phelps out at that psycho church in Kansas is probably headed to hell faster than the gays he hates. But I digress.

The institution of marriage has been around longer than any other institution in history, before religion, and certainly before any type of government. The anthropological record has many examples of male-female pairing for life for protection, companionship, and the good old roll in the hay every once and again. I don't know if they found any evidence of same-sex pairings, but if they did, they didn't last more than one generation, simply because of the biological implications of being unable to reproduce.

Personally, I don't understand the mentality if a homosexual individual, simply because I'm not one, and I can't understand what I'm not very well. But I do know they want companionship, and either a biological function, or maybe some kind of psychological episode occurred at a young age, and now they find the same sex attractive for some reason.

I feel same-sex marriage could be very damaging to the family because it affects so many different things in culture. It could teach that the traditional gender roles of a father and mother are unnecessary, forone. I've also heard people compare it to interracial marriages and things of that nature. However, racism is about keeping races apart, whereas marriage is about bringing people together. In addition, they've done studies of interracial children and single-sex household children, and while interracial children have little problems adjusting to "normal" life, children raised with two mothers or fathers have a considerable harder time about it.


Could you prove the bolded part?
deadmanjake
Son of Krypton
SoundDoctrine
Son of Krypton
I may not agree with the issue of gay marriage, but I see the issue of divorce to be a far more pressing concern to me.

Well, since divorce isn't the issue at hand, could you expand on why you do not agree with the issue of gay marriage?
Ok, I'll see what I can do, though I haven't heard exactly what it would entail in great detail.

I believe that the actual act of homosexuality is wrong, because it takes place outside of the current boundaries of marriage. I refuse to get into the discussion of whether God doesn't like homosexuals or not, becauswe I believe he loves everyone, and Fred Phelps out at that psycho church in Kansas is probably headed to hell faster than the gays he hates. But I digress.

The institution of marriage has been around longer than any other institution in history, before religion, and certainly before any type of government. The anthropological record has many examples of male-female pairing for life for protection, companionship, and the good old roll in the hay every once and again. I don't know if they found any evidence of same-sex pairings, but if they did, they didn't last more than one generation, simply because of the biological implications of being unable to reproduce.

Personally, I don't understand the mentality if a homosexual individual, simply because I'm not one, and I can't understand what I'm not very well. But I do know they want companionship, and either a biological function, or maybe some kind of psychological episode occurred at a young age, and now they find the same sex attractive for some reason.

I feel same-sex marriage could be very damaging to the family because it affects so many different things in culture. It could teach that the traditional gender roles of a father and mother are unnecessary, forone. I've also heard people compare it to interracial marriages and things of that nature. However, racism is about keeping races apart, whereas marriage is about bringing people together. In addition, they've done studies of interracial children and single-sex household children, and while interracial children have little problems adjusting to "normal" life, children raised with two mothers or fathers have a considerable harder time about it.


Could you prove the bolded part?I can't prove it, but I think several people have done studies on it. I have no idea where to look though.
Son of Krypton
SoundDoctrine
Son of Krypton
I may not agree with the issue of gay marriage, but I see the issue of divorce to be a far more pressing concern to me.

Well, since divorce isn't the issue at hand, could you expand on why you do not agree with the issue of gay marriage?
Ok, I'll see what I can do, though I haven't heard exactly what it would entail in great detail.

I believe that the actual act of homosexuality is wrong, because it takes place outside of the current boundaries of marriage. I refuse to get into the discussion of whether God doesn't like homosexuals or not, becauswe I believe he loves everyone, and Fred Phelps out at that psycho church in Kansas is probably headed to hell faster than the gays he hates. But I digress.

The institution of marriage has been around longer than any other institution in history, before religion, and certainly before any type of government. The anthropological record has many examples of male-female pairing for life for protection, companionship, and the good old roll in the hay every once and again. I don't know if they found any evidence of same-sex pairings, but if they did, they didn't last more than one generation, simply because of the biological implications of being unable to reproduce.

Personally, I don't understand the mentality if a homosexual individual, simply because I'm not one, and I can't understand what I'm not very well. But I do know they want companionship, and either a biological function, or maybe some kind of psychological episode occurred at a young age, and now they find the same sex attractive for some reason.

I feel same-sex marriage could be very damaging to the family because it affects so many different things in culture. It could teach that the traditional gender roles of a father and mother are unnecessary, forone. I've also heard people compare it to interracial marriages and things of that nature. However, racism is about keeping races apart, whereas marriage is about bringing people together. In addition, they've done studies of interracial children and single-sex household children, and while interracial children have little problems adjusting to "normal" life, children raised with two mothers or fathers have a considerable harder time about it.

I understand your concerns but with the translational issues of Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6 and 1 Timothy 1:10 there's no clear condemnation of homosexuality anywhere within the New Testament and there's no proof that a monogamous homosexual relationship would inherantly lead to sexual idolatry. Of course if it were a sin it would be an issue of relationship with God related to the risk of sexual idolatry which only applies to believers.

I am yet so see any evidence from the APA or any other respected psychology organization that suggests that living with two parents of the same sex would be any worse of a situation than living within a single-parent family. Also unnatural does not equal wrong, I for instance was born through c-section and there are many other unnatural things that have a great positive affect in our world. Lastly God's commandment to reproduce is part of the abrahamic covenant and is only bound to the Hebrews.
EDIT: All of the translational issues are explained in the second post of this thread.
Son of Krypton
SoundDoctrine
Son of Krypton
I may not agree with the issue of gay marriage, but I see the issue of divorce to be a far more pressing concern to me.

Well, since divorce isn't the issue at hand, could you expand on why you do not agree with the issue of gay marriage?
Ok, I'll see what I can do, though I haven't heard exactly what it would entail in great detail.

I believe that the actual act of homosexuality is wrong, because it takes place outside of the current boundaries of marriage.

What are the current boundaries of marriage and why do these boundaries exist?
Can you prove that these boundaries are necessary?
Quote:
I refuse to get into the discussion of whether God doesn't like homosexuals or not, becauswe I believe he loves everyone, and Fred Phelps out at that psycho church in Kansas is probably headed to hell faster than the gays he hates. But I digress.

I agree.
Quote:

The institution of marriage has been around longer than any other institution in history, before religion, and certainly before any type of government. The anthropological record has many examples of male-female pairing for life for protection, companionship, and the good old roll in the hay every once and again. I don't know if they found any evidence of same-sex pairings, but if they did, they didn't last more than one generation, simply because of the biological implications of being unable to reproduce.

But in today's day and age, why does any of that even matter? Why can't a homosexual person marry the person they love? With our current population, is reproduction even a big deal?
Quote:

Personally, I don't understand the mentality if a homosexual individual, simply because I'm not one, and I can't understand what I'm not very well. But I do know they want companionship, and either a biological function, or maybe some kind of psychological episode occurred at a young age, and now they find the same sex attractive for some reason.

Think of it this way, could you just turn gay?
Have you always been hetrosexual?
Why do you feel attracted to the opposite sex?
I am also hetrosexual, and I understand homosexuality to be what I feel, only towards the same sex. I've liked guys ever since I can remember, and I've never been attracted to girls like I'm attracted to guys. So if I take my feelings for guys, and then think that a lesbian has these feelings for girls, then I have a better understanding of it, even though I am personally not a lesbian.
Also, just because you don't understand them why should you deny them their rights based on that?
Quote:

I feel same-sex marriage could be very damaging to the family because it affects so many different things in culture.

But if we as a whole were more accepting to homosexuals, wouldn't any negatives you would find that they bring about in our culture dissipate?
Like, right now there's a lot of intolerance and bigotry towards homosexuals, and one would obviously find this a negative. But I personally do not find it a negative towards the homosexual, but towards the society.
Homosexuals need to be granted their rights and society needs to be more accpeting.
Perhaps when they are accepted, the bad things society puts on them will go away.
Quote:
It could teach that the traditional gender roles of a father and mother are unnecessary, forone.

Why is this a negative?
Quote:
I've also heard people compare it to interracial marriages and things of that nature. However, racism is about keeping races apart, whereas marriage is about bringing people together.

So why should homosexuals be denied their right to bring people together?
By denying them the right together, aren't you just separating people unfairly?
Quote:
In addition, they've done studies of interracial children and single-sex household children, and while interracial children have little problems adjusting to "normal" life, children raised with two mothers or fathers have a considerable harder time about it.

Please post your sources for these studies.
SoundDoctrine
Son of Krypton
SoundDoctrine
Son of Krypton
I may not agree with the issue of gay marriage, but I see the issue of divorce to be a far more pressing concern to me.

Well, since divorce isn't the issue at hand, could you expand on why you do not agree with the issue of gay marriage?
Ok, I'll see what I can do, though I haven't heard exactly what it would entail in great detail.

I believe that the actual act of homosexuality is wrong, because it takes place outside of the current boundaries of marriage.

What are the current boundaries of marriage and why do these boundaries exist?
Can you prove that these boundaries are necessary?

I've been of the understanding that marriage was to take one wife or husband and love, care for, and honor them until one of you dies.In primitive cultures it was probably like finding a companion to raise offspring and then simply staying with them.

I think the boundaries are necessary because is same-sex marriage is allowed, who's to say what next type of relationship could fall under the umbrella. There could be people that want to marry farm animals, appliances, and a while host of other things, and if these were to all be allowed, society as we know it could collapse. I'm not saying it will, just that it's a possibility.

Quote:
I refuse to get into the discussion of whether God doesn't like homosexuals or not, becauswe I believe he loves everyone, and Fred Phelps out at that psycho church in Kansas is probably headed to hell faster than the gays he hates. But I digress.

I agree.
Quote:

The institution of marriage has been around longer than any other institution in history, before religion, and certainly before any type of government. The anthropological record has many examples of male-female pairing for life for protection, companionship, and the good old roll in the hay every once and again. I don't know if they found any evidence of same-sex pairings, but if they did, they didn't last more than one generation, simply because of the biological implications of being unable to reproduce.

But in today's day and age, why does any of that even matter? Why can't a homosexual person marry the person they love? With our current population, is reproduction even a big deal?
Good question, why does it matter? I don't understand why people get divorced and then claim something like "Irreconcilable differences" or some other lame excuse.

Why couldn't I be free to marry two women if I wanted to? The definition of love has been so skewered, especially over the last century, that it more means lust than anything else. Sure, there are many examples of the old kind, but those are slowly going out of the picture. Love has so many meanings that people forget what kind they are actually feeling. For instance, the term "Puppy love" is also infatuation, namely, attraction on a mostly physical scale. Most young couples that have sex before marriage fall into this category, because the saying once went, "Puppy love feels real to the puppy," andf they either lack the self-control, or simply don'tcare about anything but satisfying the beast they just let themselves go.

And as for reproduction, yes our population is growing almost exponentially, but there is an imbalance in gender in many places, often through government programs (See: China's One child rule), which will lead to problems, especially if many men compete for the affections of few women.
Quote:

Personally, I don't understand the mentality if a homosexual individual, simply because I'm not one, and I can't understand what I'm not very well. But I do know they want companionship, and either a biological function, or maybe some kind of psychological episode occurred at a young age, and now they find the same sex attractive for some reason.

Think of it this way, could you just turn gay?
Have you always been hetrosexual?
Why do you feel attracted to the opposite sex?
I am also hetrosexual, and I understand homosexuality to be what I feel, only towards the same sex. I've liked guys ever since I can remember, and I've never been attracted to girls like I'm attracted to guys. So if I take my feelings for guys, and then think that a lesbian has these feelings for girls, then I have a better understanding of it, even though I am personally not a lesbian.
Also, just because you don't understand them why should you deny them their rights based on that?
I don't see myself as gay, but I don't think I've always been heterosexual, aside from a time when I was young and thought girls had cooties.

I feel attracted to the opposite sex because I can see a girl and think to myself, "Wow, she's very pretty," Or "Wow, she would make a great girlfriend to some lucky guy." I look at my girlfriend, and I can see someone I can grow old with, and someone whom I can protect, love and care for.

The last question is a very good one, and as of now, I don't have any true answer for you, but I'll be sure to let you know when I do get one.
Quote:

I feel same-sex marriage could be very damaging to the family because it affects so many different things in culture.

But if we as a whole were more accepting to homosexuals, wouldn't any negatives you would find that they bring about in our culture dissipate?
Like, right now there's a lot of intolerance and bigotry towards homosexuals, and one would obviously find this a negative. But I personally do not find it a negative towards the homosexual, but towards the society.
Homosexuals need to be granted their rights and society needs to be more accpeting.
Perhaps when they are accepted, the bad things society puts on them will go away.

Perhaps, but there's also a lot of intolerance towards Christians, with the negatives coming down somewhere in the middle. Christians have done a mediocre to awful job of showing the love of Christ to people, with many not showing any love at all. But society hasn't been very forgiving, particularly with the advent of political correctness, and the removal of God from the public square. But I digress.

Personally, speaking as a human, I'd be more than willing to give them all the rights they want, but as a servant of something greater than myself and that says the act of homosexuality is wrong, I can't, but I can show them the love of God as well as I can, by listening to them and granting them a voice to hear their opinions on things.
Quote:
It could teach that the traditional gender roles of a father and mother are unnecessary, forone.

Why is this a negative?

Single parent homes and broken homes have directly led to increases in crime, poverty, and many other things, through no fault of their own. Thes children simply have no way to learn any better, and the cultural revolutionm back in the 60s started it all, by appealing to humankind's base instincts, that of satisfying one's own desires first.
Quote:
I've also heard people compare it to interracial marriages and things of that nature. However, racism is about keeping races apart, whereas marriage is about bringing people together.

So why should homosexuals be denied their right to bring people together?
By denying them the right together, aren't you just separating people unfairly?
I don't have an honest answer here either, but as is evidenced in culture, people can be in relationships together for a long time and never have to get married. It's usually only when some kind of rights are involved somewhere, that it becomes an issue.
Quote:
In addition, they've done studies of interracial children and single-sex household children, and while interracial children have little problems adjusting to "normal" life, children raised with two mothers or fathers have a considerable harder time about it.

Please post your sources for these studies.
I have no sources, other than a Focus on the Family Video I saw the other day. Still you'd be better off finding a slightly more "Neutral" source.

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