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Your opinion?

I knew it all along. 0.61755485893417 61.8% [ 1576 ]
Good points, but I'm not convinced. 0.15399686520376 15.4% [ 393 ]
You're wrong, and I will post my rebuttal. 0.11481191222571 11.5% [ 293 ]
But it's True Love! 0.11363636363636 11.4% [ 290 ]
Total Votes:[ 2552 ]
InleDeath
Maybe the writer is making Edward do this because her spouse is like this and her religion forces her to love him anyway. neutral


I don't think anything can force love. I think you mean to say, it forces her to tolerate abuse.

I'm quite confident that Meyer truly believes Edward is a perfect guy, the one any woman would want and be lucky to have. She truly believes in his greatness. I'm also sure that she isn't aware of the fact that Edward is abusive. She is under the mistaken impression that his behavior is normal and even desirable. (And this horrible impression is most unfortunately being shared by women/young girls who are completely ignorant about abuse)

And she writes abuse with amazing accuracy and perception. I really don't want to start assuming things about her personal life, so I'll hold back my thoughts on the matter. However, to me, there can be no doubt that she has known abuse. The fact that she finds abuse normal and desirable and writes it perfectly shows as much.
Aldorel's avatar
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I think Meyer, like most of us, has seen enough abusive relationships romanticized in the media to write them fairly well without intending to. Personal experience is not necessary.

1) Please stick a spoiler-warning on your post. I know Death Note has been around for a while, but there still might be people who would be disappointed to your post.

2) Why are you using Light "God complex" Yagami and Misa-Misa-StalkerWithACrush as an example of a healthy relationship? The only reason I hesitate to call Misa an abusive girlfriend is that Light is so clearly worse.

3) Romeo and Juliet didn't tell each other that they were planning on following the other into that Great Big Beyond, they just downed the poison and got up close and personal with the dagger. If Romeo had said "Juliet, when you die, I'm coming with you," that could easily be abusive.

Committing suicide over a boyfriend / girlfriend's death = mentally unwell.
Telling boyfriend / girlfriend that you're planning on doing so = abusive.

4) Misa is saying "I don't think I could live without you", as in: "you are the sole source of meaning in my life right now." This is pretty bad, because it (theoretically) makes Light responsible for her happiness. But Misa's statement is still "in theory", so to speak. Edward's statement is more like "When you were in critical condition in the hospital, I got so freaked out by the idea of losing you that I made specific plans to kill myself."

Specific instance of potential loss + Specific suicide plans =/= misguided "romantic" talk.

Specific instance of potential loss + Specific suicide plans = "My boyfriend will actually kill himself if I take an action that results in my death."

This very quickly leads in to a chain of logic that ultimately restricts the girlfriend's actions in unreasonable ways.

BF will kill self if GF takes action that leads to death.
GF does not want BF to die.
To avoid death of BF, GF must avoid actions that might lead to her death.
GF must not:
- Take up high-intensity sports such as rock climbing or martial arts
- Join the army
- Eat foods high in trans fats
- Drive
- Walk anywhere alone at night

Depending on how neurotic GF is, this risk avoidance can get pretty restrictive pretty fast.

UltimaMage3
~Gait~
Another thing you need to understand is that abuse is all about context. There are SO MANY things abusers do that, in different context, wouldn't actually be abuse.


I'm using it as a comparison because somehow, despite, say, Bella not minding that Edward watches her sleep, the OP and many others continue to tout that as abuse, despite the context which proves it not being that way at all.

If you're not going to accept one thing, don't accept another that sounds like it, I'm saying

"Context" refers, first and foremost, to the immediate circumstances surrounding an action. Let's say we're arguing about whether a doctor should give a patient radiation treatment for cancer. What's our first question: "Does the patient currently have an aggressive cancer?" or "Will the patient have an aggressive cancer in five years?" If the patient doesn't have cancer now, there's no reason to give them radiation treatment. (It won't prevent future cancers.)

Another example. You have just signed a lease on an apartment. You have agreed to move in on August first. On July 23rd, you show up on the front lawn with all your stuff in boxes. Clearly, this is unfair to the people who are still living in that apartment. Even if you know for a fact that the apartment will be yours in a week, you can't move in because it isn't your apartment now.

With that in mind, the context of Edward watching Bella sleep:

A boy has become fascinated by a girl at school, with whom he has no real relationship. In an effort to understand Girl, Boy climbs up to her window and sneaks into her room while she sleeps. He sits down and watches her, and considers rifling through her personal belongings.

This is pretty freaking creepy. The fact that Bella later says that she doesn't mind him watching her sleep is not relevant, because at the time he first enters her room to watch her, they are not dating, she is unaware of his presence in her room, and she has not given him permission to enter her room.

I repeat: the most important part of context is the immediate context - the circumstances as they stand at the time an action is taken. At the time that Edward first took the action of watching Bella sleep, she had not given him permission to do so. Therefore, the relevant context is: Edward has entered Bella's bedroom without her knowledge or permission and is watching her sleep.

~Gait~
IIRC, she only really got concerned and wanted to become a vampire after a dream she had in which she looked like her grandmother while Edward was still immortal and looked as young as when they'd met. Her vanity is not something that Edward can control.

But he can control how often he says something to the effect of "Bella, you're such a fragile human." (I'm agreeing with Gait here.)

~Gait~
Covertly? You're giving far too much credit to Edward for Bella's own stupidity and vanity.

I know it seems like we're painting Edward as a sadistic mastermind, but look at it this way. Edward frequently says things to the effect of, "Because I am a vampire, I can do anything you can do, but better." If he does not realize that this will make Bella want to become a vampire, he is being very, very stupid. As a mindreader, he should know that many people would consider sunlight a fair trade for superpowers.

If he does realize that his words will make Bella want to be a vampire, then he's being cruel for teasing her with it and then denying it to her.
Izumi Shikibu
Aldorel
(Second post is summary of points for the busy.)

When it comes to media influences, we are most concerned with what our heroes do. After all, they are supposed to be the most admirable of people. A villain’s actions are assumed to be questionable, but the hero is, well, essentially noble. Why is it, then, that no one seems to be concerned that Edward Cullen, hero of the bestselling books Twilight and New Moon, is an abusive boyfriend? His actions repeatedly demonstrate a dangerous mentality of dependency and control.

The first thing any girl hears in a dating violence discussion is that jealousy is not love. Yet Edward is critically jealous of Jacob Black, one of Bella’s family friends. In a confrontation at the end of New Moon, Bella is genuinely afraid for Jacob’s life. Fans of the series might say “Oh, but Jacob is a werewolf – they’re historical enemies.” Would this excuse an English beau from threatening an Irish friend?

Jealousy is a control tactic. As such, it is often paired with isolation – a technique most familiar in cult dynamics. As soon as Edward and Bella begin dating, Edward repeatedly criticizes her friends as ‘shallow.’ Bella soon stops going anywhere with other friends. Not having formed strong bonds before Edward appears on the scene, Bella never bothers to form them at all. The isolation is so complete that when Edward leaves in the beginning of New Moon, Bella spends three months in a depressed state before rediscovering her other friends.

Abandonment is a control tactic in its own right. It is emotionally jarring, disruptive, and, if timed properly, can convince the target that their life is less worthwhile without the abuser. I have been the subject of this treatment myself – and, if it were not for my close friends, it would have worked. Thanks to isolation, Bella has no such friends. When Edward resurfaces, she immediately clings to him more desperately than before. He has become her only lifeline.

Of course, Edward resurfaces in that he attempts suicide. I don’t care what Romeo and Juliet says: suicide is not romantic. Apart from being mentally unstable, this is characteristic of abusive boyfriends. Many abused women remain with their boyfriends because they believe that they still love each other. They often feel responsible for their boyfriend, who tells them “I can’t live without you.” For obvious reasons, Bella doesn’t want to be responsible for Edward’s death. But because of this fear for his life, she stays in a self-destructive relationship.

This sense of responsibility for his welfare also extends to lying to her father. Encouraged deception is a red flag for an abusive relationship. Yes, you can argue that Bella shouldn’t tell her father about Edward’s vampirism for the same reason that she wouldn’t tell anyone if he had AIDS: respect for privacy. But it is expected that she would tell her father when she is with her boyfriend. Lying is unnecessary. You can argue that Edward does not encourage her to lie, instead asking her to tell someone where she is. But this statement is consistently followed with “So I know that if I kill you, I’ll get in trouble for it.” Predictably, it has the opposite effect: Bella, out of her sense of responsibility for her boyfriend, keeps their dates secret. Thus serving Edward’s ends.

This scenario, in which Edward frightens Bella, is scattered throughout Twilight. Fear is emotional abuse. It can also be used to assert control. Fans might say that Edward is constantly telling Bella how much he wants to kill her and giving unnecessary displays of strength in order to convince her not to stay with him. Why, then, doesn’t he take the lead and stay away from Bella? Because he’s “selfish.” If he is unable to stay away from her, he has no right to scare her. Calmly explaining the danger – once, as accurately as possible, without hyperbole – will suffice. And then a boy who really cared would help her take necessary precautions for her own safety. For example, telling Charlie when they would be together. Or, having Carlisle chaperone. But that would prevent Bella from swooning over his “devotion.”

Finally, Edward refuses to allow Bella to make her own decisions. She insists she does not want to go to the prom – he brings her there without telling her. She insists she doesn’t want a birthday party – he gives her a surprise party. She does not want to leave Charlie while James is loose – he throws her in the back seat and tells his brother to hold her down. When she resists, he either works around her back or manipulates her decision, kissing her until she forgets her argument. Real boyfriends respect their girlfriend’s right to a decision. Abusive boyfriends must make all the decisions – using force if necessary.

Add the fact that Edward is prone to watching Bella while she sleeps, and you have one very unhealthy relationship. This is not “love against all odds” – this is emotional and occasionally physical abuse. But this is quickly becoming the modern girl’s image of True Love. Dating violence is an explosive problem as it is – largely because people are unable to recognize it when it occurs. Abuse is seen as normal.

Are you frightened yet? I am.


Twilight is by no means one of my favorite novels and I agree that you've made a few good arguments, but I don't think that Edward is abusive.

Edward isn't jealous of Jacob, he seems to realize that Bella isn't romantically interested in him. He's more worried that Jacob will lose control and hurt Bella.


Weird, as far as I know it wasn't Jacob who put Bella in various dangerous situations.
And it wasn't Jacob who was attracted to her 'cause she smelled like dinner.
Edward is not a good boyfriend. The end. gonk
I don't even understand why girls love edward cullen so much. I mean look at him!
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He looks like a frickin *****!
panic switch's avatar
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This as always been why I liked James when I read the books.
He was pure abusive power! Unlike sneaky little Edward who isn't nearly as badass.

Dammit, I really wanted James to just eat her and end the story there. It could have been so lovely.
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Yummy...
Blueyay's avatar
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i read all the books and jacob ends up dating bella's daughter so shut up
-x- Lupess -x-'s avatar
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Blueyay
i read all the books and jacob ends up dating bella's daughter so shut up
And that's not creepy at all. [/sarcasm]

It's hard to say goodbye my love, hard to see you cry my love...hard to open up that door, when you don't know what you're going for...
I've read the Twilight series and I thought it was okay and the relationship between Bella and Edward was nice((I'm so neutral lol)). But when I read Aldorel's post on page 1, I realized Edward is not the perfect guy. If he is a guy. Maybe an extremely ugly woman. Anyway, I am now sincerely doubting their "perfect" relationship. Plus, Bella's really annoying. Why the hell wouldn't she go with Jacob? He's funny, goodlooking, and doesn't creep into her bedroom late at night while she's sleeping.
Rini-sama's avatar
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Kudos to you for this
Aldorel. You just pwned the Twilight series. XD

Congratulations. -throws confetti- Lol.
This is amazing XD
Twilight has gone way too far.
Love Mara
Minari
asiansportchic
NONE OF THESE HAVE NAYTHING TO DO WITH BEING ABUSIVE!!!!! GET THAT IN UR HEAD!!!
btw-to all u jacob lovers, ppl think edward is dangerous, Jacob can do worst, he can bite, scratch,etc. Edward can bite her and turn her into a vampire, which she WANTS to be!
The sleeping is wierd yeah, but every1 has flaws.
AND EVERYTHING ELSE WAS BELLAS CHOICE!!!!! NOT EDWARDS!!!!!!!
HHHEEELLLLOOOO!!! even tho edward some how dazzeled her, she should how enought will power to control it, and she does! so stop dissing cause u rather would have edward to urself.


Calm down and remember that I'm a human being, please. Just because I disagree with you (and present better points, personally), doesn't mean I deserve multi-exclamation points.

First: They may not be physically abusive, but manipulation, domination, disrespect, coercion, etc. are abuse.

Second: You say she should have more will power, but that's blaming the victim. If a mother beats her child, would you say it's the child's fault for not being strong enough to defend itself? Bella has low-willpower, but Edward is the one who takes advantage of it. Not something a respectful boyfriend does!

Third: I think Edward is a disgusting, foul, inconsiderate p***k. I'd rather have Mike, thanks.


If you hate the book so much why don't you just leave it alone? Instead of over analyzing everything to pieces. Its a romance, they are in love, its fiction, there doesnt have to be proof of them being in love, its a book, not reality, hes not abusive, these things are just how Stephenie Meyer was trying to show the reader how Edward felt about Bella. If you hate it oh so much why do you keep thinking baout it? Why dont you jsut leave it alone and wipe every memory of ever reading it out of your head? It bothersme when people over analyze everything, its a romance book, nothing more, so stop looking so deep into it already, jeesh.


@asiansportchic:
My gods, that is some of the worst spelling and grammar I've ever seen. where to start... ah yes.

Caps lock does not make your post more meaningful.

About the Jacob thing, he is just as dangerous as Edward. Except he doesn't have the whole shark/bloodlust thing going for him.

About the 'everyone has flaws' point, most flaws dont include a combonation of breaking and entering and invasion of personal space.

Once again, my caps lock comment. And coersion doesn't count as her own choice.

Dazzling is just that: dazzling. It is generally subtle, and one who does not know it, or possibly does know it, still might not have the willpower to overcome it. And Bella certainly does not have strong willpower.

I do not like Edward. Period.

@Minari:
I sincerely thank you for not losing your temper and pointing out your side of the argument while being respectful of the others' points. *bows*

@Love Mara:
My father once told me that one of the most effective strategies for countering fanatics was to be able to quote said *object of fanaticism* back at them. Sure, he was talking about quoting the Bible to christians, but I think it applies to any situation don't you think? *smile*

To Aldorel:
I never liked the whole Edward/Bella relationship and have had doubts about it the whole time. Thank you for creating this and giving a name to my suspicions. I give my utmost respect to your eloquence.

To no-one in particular:
Has anyone noticed that the people who are completely for the Edward/Bella relationship tend to have worse spelling and grammar?
Jade Pixie's avatar
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wow... everyone put so much thought in to this book and make up so many arguements about it...
it's a book.
you like it or you hate it...
the end.
putting so much analysis in to it is such a waste of time.
Harry Copperfield Dresden's avatar
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Jade Pixie
wow... everyone put so much thought in to this book and make up so many arguements about it...
it's a book.
you like it or you hate it...
the end.
putting so much analysis in to it is such a waste of time.

Maybe so but putting THIS must obsession into the book is also a waste of time. Isn't it? People should know just how much insanity can spread. Us haters are trying to make sense why the hell these people are SO obsessed with just a book.
Credits for this thread. I give you thumbs up!

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