Guma-chan:
1. Actually, rock climbing the way my stepdad does it is a lot safer than trying to dance when you're recovering from major, life-threatening injuries. You get ropes and harnesses and everything's tested and retested and can support several hundred/thousand pounds. And indoor climbing is even safer because all the protection is bolted in there like crazy. Football is more dangerous. Cheerleading is more dangerous.
2. Edward failed to communicate with her about his worries and then lied to her, saying "You're not good enough for me." How in the heck is that supposed to not hurt? She's already demonstrated self-esteem issues!
The one thing you hear over and over is that in a good relationship, you need communication. If Edward does not attempt to communicate and decides to use a hurtful lie instead. Even if he didn't really want to work it out, how hard would it be to say: "Bella, I'm not comfortable being this close to you any more because it scares me?"
3. But have you repeatedly made similar mistakes with the same friends? Have you done blatantly wrong things like forging their names on important paperwork or used physical force to intimidate and/or restrain them? Have you sabotaged their car because you think their new friends are no good?
Also, sarcasm is perfectly acceptable in formal debates if used well. I went to a formal debate just recently and it was used quite nicely. However, asking "Have you sent them into a three-month depression" would be a little crude, and, more importantly, wouldn't actually make my point.
laxxx10
Also, you cant say well what if it was her hair? That is like saying Jacob playfully punches Bella, but what if he really hit her hard? It did not happen and it was not implied that he was going to at all, so that is completely a moot point.
Abuse often starts small. Shoving turns into punching turns into broken bones. That's why it's relevant.
laxxx10
Edward is going to spend the rest of eternity with Bella, I think that pretty much means that they want to share the big things in life together. Edward just wants to make it official.
Which is fine, except that what he said was "I want everyone to know you're mine and no one else's." That's very different from "I want to share my life with you."
laxxx10
It doesnt really matter if you think because she was being rude, because I felt that she was. I understand how to read between the lines and I am able to do it. But there becomes a point where you read too far into things and you just twist the meaning around to something that it does not mean.
And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But sometimes it's a phallic symbol, and sometimes it's a very blatant phallic symbol.
Also, twisting things into something they don't mean has to be separated from "interpreting things in a way different from what the author has said they mean." There is good evidence in Edward's actions supporting my point of view, so I don't care what SM says. She's twisted her own canon often enough.
laxxx10
Im not saying that because Edward gave her a romantic dinner that it means that he didnt trick Bella to go to the prom. What I was saying was that if Bella really did not want to go then she definitely had the chance to stay at her house, and she didnt. Also, Bella was afraid of dancing and once they got to the prom Edward showed her that she could dance standing on top of his feet. He said that if she didnt like it that she didnt have to do it again, and she ended up liking it.
I don't think that suddenly arriving at prom and having your boyfriend pressure you to go in counts as having the chance to stay at her house. She was not told that they were going to prom when they were still at her house. And she was very, very upset when they arrived. If Edward had shown her the "dance on my feet" thing before they'd gone to prom and she'd decided it was OK, fine. But he just tossed her in the pool and told her to swim.
laxxx10
Edward knows that the prom will not be one of the most important things in Bella's life. But it is a common human experience, and since Bella's human life will be cut short because of him he wants to to have as many common human experiences as she can. In the long run of a human, it may or may not be important. But most vampires like to remember their human life, and they like being able to have common human experiences, whether they were good or not.
Still, this is *Bella's* call, not his. Again, see: real compromise.
laxxx10
Yes, Edward leaves a dent in the car and saves Bella. But Bella has no idea what is going on then. It is obvious to her that he is not human, but she doesnt know what he is. In the meadow, everything is out in the open and he just shows her what he can do, for many reasons. One of the reasons is that he wants her to know his capabilities so that she knows the risk that she is taking. Edward is not like hey I think that i should slam some branches around to scare Bella. No. He wants her to realize the risk that she is taking and he really wants her to stay with him but understands if she is too afraid to be with him.
It doesn't matter if she knew he was a vampire then. She saw him do something inhumanly strong, and she was lucid enough to remember that.
This is more than just "realize the risk." It's intimidation. That's *bad*, no matter what (if anything) is going through his head about the time. And what about his constant statements that "I wish you were more afraid of me", "You should be more afraid of me", and "A little fear would do you good" ? Did that mean anything? If it doesn't mean anything, can we also ignore his statements that he actually cares about her? We're getting some serious MPD Ed here...
laxxx10
Because Edward can not risk revealing himself more than he already has. He cant use his super reflexes to stop the car because then that will show Bella again that he is not human. Edward says he will drag Bella back. But do you honestly think that he would literally drag her back? No. He would most likely pick her up and carry her. Reading between the lines.
Picking her up and carrying her is just as much physical abuse as dragging her around would be. It's the use of physical force to make her do something she doesn't want to do.
laxxx10
Many people stay in abusive relationships because of fear. They dont want to anger someone that is abusing them because they are afraid of the consequences, so they dont leave. Some stay in it beause they forgive or forget. But I personally dont think that Bella is in either of those categories because I dont think she is being abused, but Im still pointing that out.
We've already pointed out that there are many different reasons that people stay in abusive relationships, thanks.
laxxx10
He is not saying that she is physically his equal. When Edward compares her to a kitten, he is talking completely physical. He does not mean that she cant possibly ever get as angry as he can. He is just comparing the two of them physically not emotionally.
The demeaning, diminishing nature of the statement is *still there*. If he's saying "Yeah, she's angry, but it's not like she's physically capable of ripping anything apart like I am", that's *still* diminishing and discounting her anger. You just don't comment on something like that if you're really concerned for how someone is feeling, because if you care, you're too busy caring.
laxxx10
Alice and Emmett had to "beat it into his head" that it was a good idea. Do you think that if Alice came up with the idea, that Edward would just accept it? No. Emmett and Bella would have to "beat it into his head" that it was a good idea.
That just shows that Edward's not disrespecting Bella alone, not that he's not disrespecting Bella.
laxxx10
Edward just wanted to get Bella out of that mess as fast as he could and thought about nothing else. There could have been harm in just driving around because James could have attacked them. I said this earlier, but Bella has no experience with killer vampires, Emmett and Alice do. So it would make more sense if Edward felt safer trusting Alice and Emmett on this one.
James could have attacked them if they were driving straight out of there just as easily as he could have if they were driving around the area at random and at similar speeds.
Question: When did Emmett and Alice get experience with killer vampires? It was Jasper who was in the army.
Also, it doesn't matter if she doesn't have any experience with vampires, because she can (we assume) think for herself, and she knows her own family and she knows the resources that she can draw on to help her get through this. He should at least respect her intelligence enough to think that she might possibly come up with a good plan, and therefore at least hear out the plan.
laxxx10
I think this point is kind of really just arguing about the entire topic, its too general. You think that Edward has made too many mistakes because of all the things that you feel that he has done wrong. I think that he has made some but not an unreasonable amount because I feel he has done less things wrong. Its really too broad.
Not any broader than the questions "Does God exist?" "Is the death penalty justice or not?" or "How can we have strong relationships?", and those get debated plenty.
laxxx10
Of course Vampires can be dangerous. But I dont see why because Emmett killed his singer, means that Edward will kill his. I never tried to say that vampires werent dangerous, but Edward knew that he was under control. Once he knew that Jacob was under control, he didnt worry. The Emmett reference really has nothing to do with it.
And just because Sam hurt Emily doesn't mean that Jacob will hurt Bella.
Edward didn't think at first that he was under control, but he still stayed around Bella. He has no reason to hold Jacob to a higher standard, and even if he did, he'd still have *no right to keep Bella from her friends, even if he thinks it's for her own good.*
laxxx10
No I havent brought up that argument. It was not really Edward's decision to let Bella chose, Bella was going to chose Edward or Jacob whether Edward said you can chose or whether he didnt say that. I just feel that Edward had always known that Bella wanted him more than anything.
And I just feel that if you know that your SO likes you best, then there's no honorable self-sacrifice in saying "choose that other guy if he makes you happy." That's like offering someone some of your fine wine when you know that they don't drink alcohol.
laxxx10
You feel that he was jealous and acted in a jealous way. I feel that he was trying to protect Bella, and that was how he acted, I never said he acted in a jealous way because I dont think he did. Again, he obviously didnt need to be jealous. Alice did not kidnap Bella. Even though Bella didnt want to have a huge sleepover, she was still fine with being with Alice, not thrilled but she was still fine with having a sleepover with her best friend. Edward loves Bella, if he can protect her from being hurt, he will. That is just what people do, you dont have to be in love with someone either. You just try to protect people because you dont want to see them in pain. Physical or emotional.
Okay, so kidnapping was a strong word. But it's not too far off:
wiki
In criminal law, kidnapping is the taking away or asportation of a person against the person's will.... A majority of jurisdictions in the United States retain the "asportation" element for kidnapping, where the victim must be confined in a bounded area against their will and moved. Any amount of movement will suffice for the requirement, even if it is moving the abductee to a house next door
Bella has been taken to the Cullens' house and told that she had to stay there with Alice. If Bella wanted to leave, she would not have been allowed to do so. Actual force was not used, but Bella sure as heck knew that she wouldn't have been able to get away if she'd fought back and/or run. In fact, if I remember correctly, Bella had plans that she had to change because she was being placed in protective custody on her boyfriend's authority.
No, you probably wouldn't be able to charge anyone with anything in a court of law, but the essential dynamic is there. It doesn't matter if she's "fine with it", having resigned herself to the fact that it's pointless to fight or argue. It's a violation of her personal freedom.
I am part of the Western World. So is SM. Odds are you are too, although I could be wrong. But the western culture is very much into this little thing called "personal freedom." And that means, among other things, that people should be allowed to choose certain personal risks that they are willing to take. And being with Jacob is one of those risks.
laxxx10
He understands that she is angry but doesnt understand why. He feels that this is an experience that humans have that Bella should want to do and he does not understand why she dreads it. Idk if the fact that he doesnt understand the motivations behind her feelings means that he doesnt respect her feelings.
If he doesn't understand the motivations behind her feelings and therefore decides that she must not have a good reason for feeling that way and acts as if she shouldn't feel that way, then yes, it is disrespecting her feelings.
laxxx10
I understand that you think that Edward's personality is the problem. I said that in response to someone saying that Bella and Edward should not be together because it is unhealthy for a relationship to cause physical pain. I wasnt trying to say that Edward does things out of thirst.
No, I know you're not. But you're saying that of course the relationship is going to have problems because Edward is a vampire, when in fact his vampirism does not have anything to do with his disrespectful, controlling, and abusive behaviors. It is unhealthy for a relationship to cause physical pain. And that applies no matter what species people are.
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