EDIT: You responded twice while I was typing this out? Dang.
And yes, that's pretty much what he's doing with his Dazzling. It is indeed very creepy.
I can't spell shmeilia easily either.
sweatdrop Can I call you shrockie?
3nodding
Back to the main post...
If you're not replying to her, you might have problems, because I'm not going to repeat any points that she's already made in this conversation.
laxxx10
Edward used marriage as a part of his bargain because he wanted it to be official that Bella was his, which is very reasonable.
No, it's not. You should marry someone because you love them, because you want to make a commitment to them, and because you want to share the big things in life together. You should not marry someone because you want to assert your claim on them.
laxxx10
First of all, I will not be replying to shmeiliarockie anymore. There is not need to be rude or insulting just because you disagree with what I think. You can easily disagree with somone and be nice and at least civil about it, its the mature thing to do. You may think that I am not going to repost becuase you think that I am running out of arguments, that is not true but you can think what you want.
Frankly, I don't think she was being that rude. She did haave a very valid point in that it's very important in literary analysis and in life to be able to see the inferences and connotations, to read between the lines for the meaning rather than just accept the denotated or apparent meaning. This is, among other things, where irony comes from, and if you can't understand irony you're missing out on half of literature right there.
If you
must have "forgiveness" explicitly stated in the context of abuse:
Rev. Dr. William Wong
Forgiving and forgetting allows the abuser to act as if nothing wrong had ever happened and this allows the cycle of abuse to continue.
Quote:
Phase III:The Honeymoon Stage
Apologies by the abuser, gives gifts, begs for forgiveness, promises it won't happen again, vows to change, and the victim forgives. This stage may not last very long. The tension building stage will always return.
~second one found
here.
There. The victim forgives. Temporary normalcy. Then tension returns.
laxxx10
Edward can be irritated because he doesnt understand why Bella is angry and why she does not want to have human memories it doesnt mean that he is angry with Bella. In the twilight outtakes, Edward takes Bella to her house for a romantic dinner before the prom. If Bella really opposed to going that strongly than she could have simply stayed home. Bella did not really want to go to the prom but she went because Edward was going. People in relationships go somewhere that they obviously dont want to just because they want to be with someone they love, people in healthy relationships do things like that.
Not in that way. Not by one member tricking the other into something that they really don't want to do. My stepdad is a big rock climber. When they met, my mom was afraid of heights. He really wanted her to try rock climbing - she insisted that she'd hate it. Did he drive her out into the mountains, saying they were going on a hike, and sit her down at a rock wall and insist that she get on it?
No. He asked her if she'd be willing to try it just once, and promised that if she didn't like it, she'd never have to try it again. She liked it. They now climb together regularly. This was an example of an actual compromise - you will agree to try it once for me, in full knowledge of what you're getting into, and I agree to respect your opinion if you never want to do it again.
The full knowledge is really important here. My mom knew ahead of time: "Okay, I've agreed to go rock climbing today. I'd better prepare myself for that mentally." She was not told she was going rock climbing when they arrived at the wall. (And they went indoors, which is easier for beginners.)
So how does this apply to Edward's case? Try to make it an actual, informed compromise instead of just dragging Bella along. Ask Bella: "what would possibly convince you to come to prom with me? Dancing lessons for weeks beforehand so you don't feel awkward? An agreement that you don't have to dance, and can just sit around and look pretty? Bringing a camera, taking paparrazi pictures of everyone else, and giggling about it?" Hopefully, he'll hit on something that'll make Bella feel more comfortable at Prom, and she'll be able to get herself mentally ready to make the best of it.
Throwing her into the middle of it - not helpful. Not respectful. Not good. Not OK.
And the romantic dinner doesn't change the fact that he's essentially betraying her trust. If someone threw you a party and then shaved your head while you slept, would you say "well, he threw me that great party, so I'm OK with the shaved head bit"?
laxxx10
Edward or somebody in his family will eventually change Bella into a vampire, Edward knows this from the beginning, Alice continues to see it. Even though Edward knows it will happen, he still doesnt want it to, so he tries to give Bella a normal human life because he knows that it will eventually be taken away from her and he doesnt want her to regret not doing something. We are talking about the prom incident right now, Edward left after he took Bella to the prom.
If you are an introvert and do not feel like you fit in with your classmates, have very few real friends, and your one notable personality trait is the fact that you are clumsy, is prom likely to be a happy memory?
No. I didn't think so.
Heck, SM herself had a hand in a guide to "surviving prom". Does that sound like a vital memory that you just have to have? Sure, it's a typical human memory that most people have. Breaking bones is a pretty common experience, too. Do you think we should just snap one of Bella's arms so she can get one of those cool casts?
I've brought this up before, and I will again, but I have two introverted friends who do not like to dance. One of them came to the prom and sat out most (but not all) of the dances. She had fun. The other skipped prom. She didn't care.
My mom remembers prom seeming like a really big deal when she was in high school. In the long run, she says, it doesn't matter.
There are bigger things in life than prom. Edward is over
one hundred years old. He should know this.
laxxx10
In the meadow Edward shows Bella his capabilities because she doesnt really know what he can do. Yes, he wants to scare her because he thinks that Bella shouldnt be with him and that its not safe for her. He wants her to know the risks that she is taking by being with him. What is Edward trying to get out of Bella when he shows her his capabilities? He is not trying to get anything out of Bella. He does calm her down afterwards because he wishes she wasnt scared but understands why she is. He tells Bella that he wont hurt her again but he never did hurt her in the first place.
A car hit him.
He left
dents in the
car.
I think that's a good enough example of his capabilities.
Whether he gets anything out of it directly or not, fear is not a healthy thing in a relationship. Period.
He didn't hurt her? I think that she sounded pretty hurt when she realized he'd taken her to the prom. Not to mention the manhandling shmeilia quoted for us. And then we've got those Three. Blank. Months. in New Moon. Hm....
laxxx10
Of course Bella was pissed off because Edward wouldnt let her drive. Edward told Ms. Cope that he would take Bella home himself and he wanted to keep his word. Many times in the series Bella tries to make her injuries seem like no big deal when in reality they usually are. Even that early in the book, Edward can see that Bella does not want to be the center of attention and tries to make her injuries seem like no big deal, so Edward doesnt know if Bella is lying to him about how she feels, she has done it before. Edward is trying to be cautious and keep Bella safe. I never said that you were making any of this up so I dont know what point youre trying to make.
So why won't he let her drive, and in her own truck? Why can't he just sit in the passenger seat? If it looks like she's about to faint at the wheel, then, sure, he can take over. With his reflexes, it's not like he can't just reach over and grab the steering wheel in a real emergency. That's the whole point of having an adult sitting next to a new driver on a learner's permit.
But no, he insists on
driving, in his car when there's no reason he can't jsut ride in her car, and then
threatens to use physical force if she won't go along with it. He is not playing. She is not amused. This is serious.
Threats of physical force are never OK in a romantic relationship.
laxxx10
If you say 'Im not trying to be rude' and then say something rude, it really doesnt matter because you were still rude. So if youre not trying to be rude then try actually not being rude. Many victims stay with an abuser because they are afraid of what the abuser will do if they leave. Yes the link does say that the abuser will apologize but it does not say that the victim accepts the apology! The abuser may apologize and the victim just does not leave out of fear of what the abuser will do, which means that they stay together and the cycle keeps repeating itself.
Again, see quotes above. Frequently, the victim remembers the fun they've had during the low-tension stages of the relationship, and forgives them and stays in the relationship in the hope that it'll be like that again. And sometimes, it is like that again for a while.
Then tension erupts again.
laxxx10
Just because I interpret something differently than you do does not mean that I am wrong so you dont have to treat me like Im dumb because Im really not. Yes Edward thinks Bella feels like she is big and intimidating, because Bella does think that. Edward also thinks that Bella is not as big and intimidating as she thinks she is because she really isnt! If you compare Bella and Edward then Bella is like a kitten compared to Edward, she cant do much harm to him. Yes he thinks she is cute but that does not mean that he doesnt realize that she is angry and understand that. Edward can think that Bella and her anger is cute and still take her seriously, he can do both at the same time.
How? If you're taking it seriously, you're thinking "Gee, this person isn't happy. What could have happened to upset them? Could I have done this? Can I help?" Explain to me how it makes sense to say "Gee, this small and harmless person is upset. Could I have done this? Aww, how cute."
The "cute" thought diminishes the weight you're putting on the "upset" thought and prevents you from thinking about what that person really needs.
Also, in most contexts someone is "cute" when you're looking down on them. Don't tell me that a lion is looking at the kitten hissing at it and thinking "Gee, this kitten is my equal. They are upset. I'd better take it seriously."
laxxx10
Think of the situation that Edward is in. The person that he loves is in serious danger of being killed by a vampire because he put her in danger. He is not thinking logicaly, he is just thinking about Bella being as far away from James as possible. When Bella says her idea Edward was still not thinking straight, it wasnt until Emmett and Alice calmed him down until he realized that Bella was right. Also, Bella had no experience with anything like that at all. Alice, Emmett and Edward have had a lot more experience with vampires and the entire situation, so Edward probably felt safer knowing that other people who are experienced think that Bella's idea is good.
He wasn't even listening until Alice and Emmett beat it into his head that it might be a good idea. This isn't wanting a second opinion on her idea before going with it - this was blocking it out.
How someone acts under stress and time pressure tells you a lot about that person, because there's no time for them to cover up their core impulses with socially dictated behaviors.
Under pressure, Edward's impulse was to take control and to disregard what Bella was saying - and he tried to hold on to this control even after the point at which the immediate physical danger had passed. What was there to lose just driving aorund randomly for a few minutes while figuring out the next step?
laxxx10
No Im not saying that Edward should have taken Bella's things. I am saying that Edward thought that it would help Bella. He may have been right, he may have been wrong but it doesnt matter he still shouldnt have. But he thought it would help Bella, thats why he did it, he made a mistake in taking it and should have left Bella to do with it what she pleased. To me, this is one of the only mistakes that Edward made where he made a decision that he should have left up to Bella. So if youre using that expression then are you saying that in a relationship a person is only allowed one mistake and after that the relationship is ended?
No, she's saying after two or three mistakes the relationship should end. (If I remember correctly: "I can forgive one of these mistakes, or even two if I really think he's sincere, but five?"
wink And that seems perfectly reasonable to me, given that some of these mistakes are pretty darn big ones.
Edward has made more than two or three mistakes.
laxxx10
Dont overexaggerate. Im sure this is not the hundredth time you have posted it.
Maybe not, but it's probably the hundredth time
I've posted it.
laxxx10
And its not like you keep saying it in multiple posts and I keep ignoring what you are saying, you are the one that keeps repeating yourself in the same post. I do not have time to sit here and read over 100 pages of this, so yeah I will probably bring up an argument that has already been put on here.
I'm pretty sure that you're repeating yourself at least as much as we're repeating ourselves within this conversation. I can go back and count the number of times you've posted a variation of "he just wants her to have human memories" if you'd like.
laxxx10
Edward did not think it would be safe for Bella to see Jacob. Neither did most of Edward's family or the pack. Jacob is a young werewolf and the scars on Emily's face prove that young werewolves are very dangerous.
And the fact that Emmett
killed his singer proves that even older vampires are very dangerous.
laxxx10
Once Jacob proves that he has more control than most young werewolves, Edward thinks its safe and allows Bella to see him. Edward does not like Mike at all but really has no problem with Tyler, Bella does not really like Tyler because he thinks he is taking her to prom and doesnt like that Mike makes things awkward. Edward does not like Mike because Edward can hear all of the vulgar things that he thinks about Bella and feels that it is insulting to think like that. Edward also hears Mike's insulting thoughts about the Cullens, how Jacob feels about Edward and Bella dating, and the rude things he thinks about Edward. Although Edward doesnt like Mike and has valid reasons not to, he doesnt ever prevent Bella from seeing him or Tyler. Bella just does not want to see Mike or Tyler.
I for one am a huge proponent of the idea that one should not be negatively judged based on one's thoughts. I can be very uncharitable in my thoughts, but I try to treat everyone with respect. Therefore, although by my own standards I should excuse Edward for mentally disliking someone for what he finds in their thoughts, I don't think that he has a valid reason to act on it.
Besides, Edward's the one who's constantly thinking about killing Bella and drinking her blood. It doesn't get much more vulgar than that.
Finally - "allows" Bella to see Jacob? Doesn't that word set off alarm bells? A boyfriend should never have to "allow" you to spend time with one of your friends.
laxxx10
Edward knew that he had Bella, and Jacob knew too. Edward always knew that Bella wanted him more than anything else in the world. Edward just tries to make Bella happy and keep her safe. Edward had rubbed it in Jacob's face enough in Eclipse. If Edward was trying to rub it in Jacob's face then why would he leave Bella and Jacob alone at the wedding, if he were trying to rub it in he would not give them alone time, he would be trying to rub it in.
Can't comment on what he did at the wedding. Haven't read it. Although I can say that leaving Jacob alone with Bella might do just as well to rub it in as standing there with her might be. There's no way that Jacob's going to forget that it's a wedding and that she's not exactly getting married to him.
And if Edward always knew that Bella would choose him, doesn't that totally invalidate the "We know Edward cared because he let her choose between him and Jacob" argument that keeps popping up here? (Not sure if you've brought that one out, but I thought I'd point that out.)
laxxx10
Edward felt that it was unsafe for Bella to see Jacob. Nobody wanted her to end up like Emily because Jacob couldnt control his anger. He took a part from her truck and had Alice be with her to make sure she would be safe. Edward had no reason to be jealous over Jacob because Bella had obviously chosen him. I wont go into detail because I already did earlier in this post.
He had no reason to be jealous - and yet he acted in a jealous way. Hm. Interesting.
"Had Alice be with her." Nice euphemism for "kidnapping" there.
IT IS NOT EDWARD'S JOB TO KEEP BELLA SAFE FROM EVERY PRESUMED THREAT.
laxxx10
In the kitten quotes it shows that Bella thinks of herself as a lion but Edward knows that in comparison she is a kitten, but he still understands that she is angry and still thinks she has a right to be angry!
Which is why he had an annoyed expression on and told her not to be difficult. Because that's a perfect way to let someone know that you respect their feelings and think they have a right to feel that way - tell them to bottle it up, and not show it.
laxxx10
No human relationship should cause physical pain, but we are dealing with the supernatural. The Cullens try to be as normal as possible. It is not their fault that the scent of human blood makes their throat burn. It is also not Edward's fault that Bella's blood is the best blood that he has ever smelled. So should vampires never be allowed to have any type of relationship with a human? Should Edward and Bella not be together because of something that is completely uncontrollable?
Edward hasn't done these abusive things out of his thirst. It is not Edward's thirst that is getting in the way.
It is Edward's personality.
And in that situation, they should not be together.
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