Sharae_Daniken – If my arguments are unjustified, tell me why.
Endearment
I had to laugh out loud for that. But in all honesty, he watches her because he loves her and by watching her he gives Bella a sense of security. If Bella didn't consent to him watching over her while she slept she would've kicked him out and told him he freaked her out by 'stalking her'. Also, Bella actually ASKS Edward to spend the night with her. It's not an invasion of privacy at all. It's his protectiveness that makes him a great boyfriend. Even though he's not human, he's not perfect.
Edward watched her in her sleep
before she said it was ok. This is similar to raping your fiance because they’d be ok with sex after you’re married.
If you have not asked
now and gotten a yes
now, it’s not ok. Even if the answer will be yes
later. The "yes" later does not make it retroactively ok.
Yes, rape is much worse than general stalkerness. That was an analogy.
”Azadetruth”
No. You danced around it, talking about things you had already "explained throroughly", which were irrevelant to my arguement. And when it did have to do with what I was saying, you answered it incorrectly. So, I posted why it was wrong, I didn't further talk about my "question".
Take the Edward's reverse psychology point. In my first post, I asked for evidence on that, and you said you hadn't explained this before in the board, only labeled it as "reverse psychology" and leaving it at that. Just now, you admitted it was just due to "lack of communication".
No, I did not say that I hadn’t explained it before in the board – both I and my fellow debaters, such as Mizzy, have explained it several times – and I certainly didn’t say that I just labeled it “reverse psychology” and left it at that. For starters, I have no idea where the term “reverse psychology” first came up. It wasn’t anywhere on the first two pages. It might have been me somewhere in the thread, it might have been someone on the abuse side or it could have been a fan trying to discredit the idea. In any case, the term is mostly used for convenience, because it conveys the idea that the literal meaning of a statement isn’t always the real message of that statement. That is what I’m trying to get across here. The gap between what he’s literally saying and what he’s actually communicating.
(And, just for reference, wikipedia defines "
reverse psychology" as "the term that describes the outcome where advocacy of one course of action persuades another person to do the opposite." and notes that it doesn't have to be an intentionally used tactic. Edward's advocacy of telling her father persuades Bella not to tell her father. I'm not unjustified in calling it reverse psychology even if it's poor communication and not intent that's causing the problem.)
And I did give you evidence in the form of the citation I was primarily basing my argument on, along with a detailed description of my interpretation of that statement.
Finally, I did not say that it was “just a lack of communication,” as in a lack of communication and nothing else. I said he was “
not so much using reverse psychology as he is failing to communicate clearly.” Meaning, again, that that there is
definitely a dangerous gap in his verbal communication even if you don’t want to go so far as to say he’s using reverse psychology on her. I can understand that.
Contrary to appearances, I don’t like to throw around controversial words. I like to remind people that a relationship can be bad for you even if you don’t call it “abusive” and that someone can be misleading even if they aren’t using “reverse psychology.” Maybe that’s a mistake. Maybe I should say “being unclear, manipulative, pushy, and threatening, and through this combination being royally and blatantly nasty to Bella” If that’d be easier to talk about, let me know.
”Azadetruth”
So: Edward tells/encourages Bella to lie to father=wrong. There's no evidence here, we already know this.
I’ve given you evidence, and an explanation, and pointed out that by carelessly deceiving Charlie (sneaking into Bella’s room), he’s encouraging Bella to lie no matter what he’s verbally telling her to do.
”Azadetruth”
And: Edward using reverse psychology on Bella, causing her to lie=wrong. Due to a request that was unclear, Bella took it to her own interpretation what she should do about it and what she thought was best for him. That's all there is to it.
And the request is unclear because Edward doesn’t seem to care enough about whether Bella tells Charlie or not to talk about the issue and clarify the request. The proper response to Bella’s decision not to tell Charlie, from someone who cared, would be along the lines of “Why don’t you want to tell your father? Don’t you think he’d want to know we’re dating? Do you think he’d disapprove of me? Are you worried I’d get in trouble?”
A cryptic, threatening statement is prone to misunderstandings. And sulking is all but a confirmation that Bella shouldn’t budge and decide to tell Charlie after all. Since when have you re-thought your position due to sulking?
I agree that your interpretation is valid in that it’s probably what Edward meant to say and probably what he expected her to get out of it. But if a speaker’s intent is misunderstood, it is the speaker’s responsibility to make their words understood. If they know that they’re misunderstood and don’t try to clarify, the misunderstanding is
their fault.
”Azadetruth”
And the other question of "where does he ever say this", I was simply curious. I know he said it, I just didn't know where.
Ok, no problem. I’m just not always sure of what part of my argument you want me to explain, and thus overexplain rather than underexplain.
”Azadetruth”
But that was never my question. Ed doesn't know Bella's thoughts, so you're talking about Ed isolating himself from others, right now. Did I ever say that wasn't true? Nope.
I think that we’ve found our misunderstanding. The point isn’t that Ed is isolating himself from others – I’m trying to take Edward as an example to show that generally, knowing peoples’ thoughts isolates you from them and that
therefore, telling Bella about her friends’ shallow thoughts is isolating her from them.
”Azadetruth”
Well, I'm not talking about Ed's mind reading causing him to isolate himself from others.
When he tells Bella she's superior from them, he does give her something to think about, but she chooses not to make her opinion about her friends be changed by it. So he's not isolating her from them.
”Azadetruth”
Obviously though, it isn't working, 'cause Bella isn't affected by it. So Ed hasn't being trying to persuade her to change her mindset.
”Azadetruth”
To the actual point here, Ed doesn't try to brainwash Bella to think the same thing about her friends, he simply states his own opinion about them. Like I already mentioned, it doesn't affect her at all.
Why do you think she isn’t affected by it?
Here, let me give you an example – a person has cancer, and it’s looking bad. The tumor is growing quickly. The doctors prescribe a new drug treatment. The cancer stops growing. There’s no change in the size of the cancer after that, but does that mean that the medicine has had no effect? No – in fact, it may have saved the patient’s life.
Bella’s relationship with the girls was growing and developing. She meets Edward and all of a sudden everything stops. She stops spending time with the girls, stops getting to know them. Her relationship with them stays the same. But that doesn’t mean that Edward hasn’t had an effect, because we know that her relationships shouldn’t just be holding steady. They should be
growing. By New Moon, Bella has known Angela and Jess for almost a year, but she acts like she’s only known them for a few months.
”Azadetruth”
Hm? I'm confused as to what you're trying to say here. First you say Ed isn't encouraging her to think for herself. OK, that doesn't really make you abusive. But then you say he does encourage her to be with her friends, but that is not effective. So what, do you want him to force her to it, because that works better...? And, I'm not talking about the college application. If I didn't think that was wrong, I would post an arguement about it, but I do think it's wrong.
I’m saying that if Edward really wanted her to spend time with her friends, he would not be pushing her to spend time apart from him because he isn’t good for her – Bella obviously disagrees. He would, for example, tell her that he thought Angela was nice and trustworthy. Or he would ask Bella why she’s so dismissive of her own species.
He is very pushy about the fact that he is “bad” for Bella. But when he tries to talk about it, it leads to
1) I could kill you without noticing.
2) I could make you lose your soul.
3) It’s bad that you feel safe around me.
That is not communication. And although I hate to bring reverse psychology back into this, if I were dating Legolas and he said “it’d be good for you to spend more time with other humans,” I’d think “yeah, right” and probably spend even more around him just because I felt like it. Especially if he was punctuating his archery practice with speeches about how dangerous elves are.
See my point?
Whether or not he’s doing it intentionally (and personally, I think he isn’t), everything he says is a further encouragement for Bella to isolate herself.
”Azadetruth”
Yeah, I know that. I was just saying that it was what she could possibly feel if she was feeling pressured by Ed, which she isn't.
She isn’t feeling pressured by Ed to be a vampire. But that doesn’t mean she isn’t being pressured in other ways.
I think this is important in the same way it’s important to say that someone can be physically hurt without being hit.
”Azadetruth”
My whole point is that it's not a control tactic to make her stay in the relationship. I didn't deny it was controlling in general, just not controlling her in that sense. Bella knows she's free to leave him.
Ok, she’s free to leave him. I think we all understand that. But controlling in general is still bad and still abusive.
”Azadetruth”
I was saying it was irrevelant because I wasn't discussing the whole aspect of the abusive relationship. I was especifically talking about Ed's telling Bella to lie.
Ok, it’s not directly related to that specific point. I apologize. I just like to tie as many things as possible back in to my main point. I wil try to restrain myself.
”Azadetruth”
There's a difference between treating someone disrespectfully, and disregarding their intelligence. If people who disregarded how smart you were, were to be abusive, a lot of parents would be labeled as so. Not taking your opinion into consideration, is disregarding you. Not believing you can handle something on your own, is disregarding you. Forcing you to do something they think is best for you, is disregarding you and abusise. Not with the other scenerios, though. Also, there's a difference between disregarding someone in your mind, and acting upon it. You can disregard someone's ability to take her of themselves. But if you act upon it by controlling their lives, that is abusive.
And this is what Edward
does. Treat Bella as if she isn’t capable of making her own decisions. Even if it’s possible to have a healthy romantic relationship with someone who doesn’t take your opinion into consideration, Edward is disregarding her in his actions, not just in his thoughts.
If I may reference the original issue…
”The Last Mizzy”
Edward didn't leave her because he didn't want to be with her, right? He didn't leave because it was the choice he wanted to make for himself. He did it because he wanted Bella to be safe and normal. But Bella didn't want to be safe or normal. She chose to forsake both to be with Edward. That is her decision and she is perfectly capable of making it. But Edward clearly demonstrated that he thinks he knows not only what is best for their relationship, but what is best for her life. This shows a complete disregard for Bella as an intelligent, capable person. This shows that he is abusive.
”Azadetruth”
Well, I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about the act of breaking up with Bella, not the process in which he did it.
No, the act of breaking up is not inherently abusive. But (if I may use an analogy) sex isn’t abusive either – until it’s nonconsensual.
”Azadetruth”
I haven't ever said that that was correct. I was saying if Ed is the boyfriend in that relationship, he has every right to act as a boyfriend and break up with the girlfriend.
Ok, I can accept that. I don’t think it was right of him to be dishonest about his reasons (what happened to the nice, generic “I don’t think it’s working out” or even “I don’t feel comfortable in this relationship”?), but I can agree that it’s a grey area.
”Azadetruth”
The especific arguements I picked at, I did not pick because of the emotional abuse you see in then, I did because I did not think they were right. I'm not excluding everything else that does entail to be emotionally abusive.
Ok, I gotcha. And I understand that these two arguments – isolation and encouraging deception – are my two weakest arguments, because it is open to interpretation.
Maybe it’d be easier just to strike those out of the essay and rely on my cast-iron arguments. But I like to keep them in there because I think there’s definitely something weird going on between those lines.
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