RAW 5-5-2014 Discussion Thread

[Rumblestiltskin]

Niji no Jojishi

Again, Bray has a legit hold on the crowd and the fans that he has won over are going to stay with him

And, again, so did Wade and Miz...and the fans didn't. You're assuming that they're going to stay with him, but watch how quick the fans duck out on the Wyatts if the WWE drops him back to the midcard or lower...like they've done with just about every heel who has lost a feud to Cena.

Quote:

because... another difference between Bray and every guy you mentioned is his in ring talent.

Don't get me wrong...Bray's got talent...but he's not THAT good. Hell, his best matches so far have been with the Shield. But other than those matches, he really hasn't put on any solid matches with anyone. They've been watchable, but he's no Daniel Bryan or CM Punk when it comes to ring work.

Quote:

Again, I dont see Cena just losing to Wyatt all together because if you really pay attention to the last two PPVs, Wyatt cannot hold a candle to Cena kayfabe in the ring. Cena could have won 50 times at Extreme Rules if 1) the rest of the Wyatts werent there and 2) with the Wyatts there was smart enough to not try to escape and pinned Bray after the AA of the top rope. That was a win. 3) he just moved the kid out of the way. Bray, even 2 extra ppl AND Luke Harper in the cage with him didnt seem like he had much of a chance of beating him.

And that's the ******** problem. Cena is too OP. Nothing phases him. No one beats him. Even by superhero standards, that's awful. There's no emotional investment. There's no character arc. There's just "Cena overcomes 'the odds.'" And that's why he's been getting booed for the past ten years.

Quote:

That is all to explain why Cena has to fight Bray again and win this angle.

No...he doesn't need to win. Know why? CAUSE HE'LL STILL BE TOO OP. In fact, having him lose and face the fact that there is a guy that he couldn't beat, that he couldn't stop, and that is swaying the audience, makes him a bit vulnerable. And the Cena character NEEDS vulnerability. The guy is in a 3-on-1 feud, and people are expecting him to win....There is something wrong with that scenario.

Quote:

Now to the point of Bray losing value via a loss. 1) The fans are solid behind Bray

...For now. Again, you are ASSUMING they will always be behind them...but fans are fickle.

Quote:

and 2) Look around. Where are the villians? Who besides Kane and the Authority have a shot at being the heel against Daniel Bryan? To me, he is one of the top heels in the business right now. At present time. Not THE top but one of the top ones.

Sure, Bray is definitely the next big name to take on Bryan...WHICH IS WHY HE NEEDS THE WIN. It doesn't make sense for Wyatt to lose, and then earn a title shot, cause that would make Cena the next number one contender...not Bray. In fact, the lack of villains is ANOTHER reason why Cena needs to lose. If Cena wins, that's another villain who isn't in contention for the title.

Quote:

That being said, losing to Cena is the only way that feud ends because Cena wouldnt just let it go. That is HELLA uncharacteristic.

He will if they move him on to something else. And that could be part of the storyline. He couldn't beat Bray...he couldn't stop "the message." He now has to face the fact that he lost. Hell, Sheamus was just talking about picking his spots...turn him heel, have him feud with Cena. Have it be something like Sheamus being pissed that he was always behind Cena, and now, he has the opportunity to finally get ahead of him. It keeps Cena out of the main event, gives him a feud to keep him relevant, and it plays on the history of the two characters...which is much better than "Cena just wins LOL"...

[Lord of the Vine]

Niji no Jojishi

Rumblestiltskin

Niji no Jojishi

Rumblestiltskin

Niji no Jojishi

Ugh.... The Shield is soooooooo much better than the Wyatt family but Evolution saved them from fulfilling my dream of eliminating Bray with that Triple Powerbomb. emotion_facepalm

Obviously, they aren't going to take out Bray after he beat Cena. This will probably build up to a Wyatt/Bryan feud at some point.

But my dream... emo

Either way, you are right. But Cena is still going to have to get his win over Bray, first. After than, a Wyatt/Bryan feud would be perfect at the moment. Best heel vs Champion situation.

...Cena did win over Wyatt...at WMXXX. And honestly, they shouldn't let Cena win this. They should move him on to a different feud. The idea of Wyatt holding some kind of power over the WWE is far and beyond more interesting than another typical Cena win. Besides, they're going to need strong heels for Bryan, and he won't have any if Cena just keeps beating them all....

Though, it being the WWE, that's precisely why they're going to have Cena win...

Well, I think that Cena winning again wont really put a dent in Bray's booming popularity. It would enhance it because the new Wyatt fans would HATE seeing Cena win, again. They can take that energy and add it to a Bryan/Wyatt feud. You cannot keep giving the fans every victory they want to see. It adds to the drama surrounding everything in the story.

People were getting tired of Bryan looking incredibly weak going into all of his title opportunities. If Bray loses clean in this feud, that's it. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

There are only two ways this can end: Cena loses clean, or Cena loses.

[Astra the Fae]

...Didnt CM Punk beat Cena a few times or are we erasing that Cena has lost before and isnt that op.

[Lord of the Vine]

[Rumblestiltskin]

Astra Green

...Didnt CM Punk beat Cena a few times or are we erasing that Cena has lost before and isnt that op.

The key word is "clean." CM Punk has never beat Cena clean. The only ones to do it within the past ten years were Rock and Bryan.

[Niji no Jojishi]

Dion Necurat

This is what I was thinking. But they should have used the pic with the kid sitting on his lap. Very disturbing.

[Astra the Fae]

Rumblestiltskin

Astra Green

...Didnt CM Punk beat Cena a few times or are we erasing that Cena has lost before and isnt that op.

The key word is "clean." CM Punk has never beat Cena clean. The only ones to do it within the past ten years were Rock and Bryan.

No. The key word is loss or lost. A loss is a loss whether its clean or not.

I hate to paraphrase A Song of Ice and Fire...but its either you win or lose. There is no middle ground.

[Rumblestiltskin]

Astra Green

Rumblestiltskin

Astra Green

...Didnt CM Punk beat Cena a few times or are we erasing that Cena has lost before and isnt that op.

The key word is "clean." CM Punk has never beat Cena clean. The only ones to do it within the past ten years were Rock and Bryan.

No. The key word is loss or lost. A loss is a loss whether its clean or not.

I hate to paraphrase A Song of Ice and Fire...but its either you win or lose. There is no middle ground.

In terms of the record book, sure. There is no "lost, but it wasn't a clean finish" category. But we're not talking about the record book...we're talking about establishing credibility. And beating Cena in a cheap win isn't an accomplishment. It doesn't establish credibility, because at the end of the day "well, Cena would have won, if it weren't for x." And that's what all those losses were about. It was never about establishing credibility with a heel. It was about how "well, Cena's going to need to avenge that loss." It was just another pit stop in the "John Cena beats everyone" story.

Also, you're claiming that a guy who is in a 3-on-1 feud which he is expected to win "isn't that OP"...That's like the very definition of being overpowered.

[Sandokiri]

Rumblestiltskin

Astra Green

...Didnt CM Punk beat Cena a few times or are we erasing that Cena has lost before and isnt that op.

The key word is "clean." CM Punk has never beat Cena clean. The only ones to do it within the past ten years were Rock and Bryan.

The Bryan win also had behind-the-scenes aspects to it - Cena's arm was legit injured during their match, and/or they didn't want a Cena-Orton rivalry but did want Orton to end up with the belt. As for the Rock, Cena wound up reversing the pro-Rock outcome to that rivalry and beating Rock at WM29.

@Astra Green: That's Cena's other problem: while he's not necessarily OP / untouchable in individual matches, he certainly has been on a storyline level. Consider the whole Nexus thing, for example: poor Johnny was forced to do heely things, but they never corrupted him and he ended up destroying the stable.

Even with the Wyatt storyline, he's not being corrupted so much as being portrayed as a betrayed messiah, who will most likely (but most disfavourably) Sailor Moon his way out of the Wyatt trap and care-bear-AA Bray's thralls into being magically de-programmed or somesuch.

[Rumblestiltskin]

Sandokiri

Rumblestiltskin

Astra Green

...Didnt CM Punk beat Cena a few times or are we erasing that Cena has lost before and isnt that op.

The key word is "clean." CM Punk has never beat Cena clean. The only ones to do it within the past ten years were Rock and Bryan.

The Bryan win also had behind-the-scenes aspects to it - Cena's arm was legit injured during their match, and/or they didn't want a Cena-Orton rivalry but did want Orton to end up with the belt. As for the Rock, Cena wound up reversing the pro-Rock outcome to that rivalry and beating Rock at WM29.

That's kind of irrelevant, really. I mean, Cena's gone out on injury before, and the match to "put him out," if he doesn't outright win it (like he did against Brock), they still have the arbitrary screw job finish. So I don't think Cena giving Bryan a clean win had anything to do with him taking time off. It was more about Cena wanting to put Bryan over (and, well...we saw how far that went).

Also, kind of a side note, since you're an admin, any ideas on when we'll be getting any kind of mod or assistant assigned to this forum? Cause right now, there isn't one...and while I know this forum is relatively quiet, you'd think there'd be at least someone who is responsible for the forum...

[Sandokiri]

Rumblestiltskin

Sandokiri

Rumblestiltskin

Astra Green

...Didnt CM Punk beat Cena a few times or are we erasing that Cena has lost before and isnt that op.

The key word is "clean." CM Punk has never beat Cena clean. The only ones to do it within the past ten years were Rock and Bryan.

The Bryan win also had behind-the-scenes aspects to it - Cena's arm was legit injured during their match, and/or they didn't want a Cena-Orton rivalry but did want Orton to end up with the belt. As for the Rock, Cena wound up reversing the pro-Rock outcome to that rivalry and beating Rock at WM29.

That's kind of irrelevant, really. I mean, Cena's gone out on injury before, and the match to "put him out," if he doesn't outright win it (like he did against Brock), they still have the arbitrary screw job finish. So I don't think Cena giving Bryan a clean win had anything to do with him taking time off. It was more about Cena wanting to put Bryan over (and, well...we saw how far that went).

Also, kind of a side note, since you're an admin, any ideas on when we'll be getting any kind of mod or assistant assigned to this forum? Cause right now, there isn't one...and while I know this forum is relatively quiet, you'd think there'd be at least someone who is responsible for the forum...

We can look into it.

[Lord of the Vine]

Sandokiri

Rumblestiltskin

Sandokiri

Rumblestiltskin

Astra Green

...Didnt CM Punk beat Cena a few times or are we erasing that Cena has lost before and isnt that op.

The key word is "clean." CM Punk has never beat Cena clean. The only ones to do it within the past ten years were Rock and Bryan.

The Bryan win also had behind-the-scenes aspects to it - Cena's arm was legit injured during their match, and/or they didn't want a Cena-Orton rivalry but did want Orton to end up with the belt. As for the Rock, Cena wound up reversing the pro-Rock outcome to that rivalry and beating Rock at WM29.

That's kind of irrelevant, really. I mean, Cena's gone out on injury before, and the match to "put him out," if he doesn't outright win it (like he did against Brock), they still have the arbitrary screw job finish. So I don't think Cena giving Bryan a clean win had anything to do with him taking time off. It was more about Cena wanting to put Bryan over (and, well...we saw how far that went).

Also, kind of a side note, since you're an admin, any ideas on when we'll be getting any kind of mod or assistant assigned to this forum? Cause right now, there isn't one...and while I know this forum is relatively quiet, you'd think there'd be at least someone who is responsible for the forum...

We can look into it.

Hell, you could probably put in a good word for either me or Rumble.

Maybe if we slip you a $20? wink

Kidding, of course. Bribery is bad.

...

I'll leave this here...

[Rumblestiltskin]

Dion Necurat

Sandokiri

Rumblestiltskin

Sandokiri

Rumblestiltskin

Astra Green

...Didnt CM Punk beat Cena a few times or are we erasing that Cena has lost before and isnt that op.

The key word is "clean." CM Punk has never beat Cena clean. The only ones to do it within the past ten years were Rock and Bryan.

The Bryan win also had behind-the-scenes aspects to it - Cena's arm was legit injured during their match, and/or they didn't want a Cena-Orton rivalry but did want Orton to end up with the belt. As for the Rock, Cena wound up reversing the pro-Rock outcome to that rivalry and beating Rock at WM29.

That's kind of irrelevant, really. I mean, Cena's gone out on injury before, and the match to "put him out," if he doesn't outright win it (like he did against Brock), they still have the arbitrary screw job finish. So I don't think Cena giving Bryan a clean win had anything to do with him taking time off. It was more about Cena wanting to put Bryan over (and, well...we saw how far that went).

Also, kind of a side note, since you're an admin, any ideas on when we'll be getting any kind of mod or assistant assigned to this forum? Cause right now, there isn't one...and while I know this forum is relatively quiet, you'd think there'd be at least someone who is responsible for the forum...

We can look into it.

Hell, you could probably put in a good word for either me or Rumble.

Maybe if we slip you a $20? wink

Kidding, of course. Bribery is bad.

...

I'll leave this here...

Do you know how many people in this forum would throw a hissy fit if I were put in any position of authority here? I've already been accused multiple times by completely different people of "manipulating the forum" and "having everyone wrapped around my finger." Doesn't matter how many times I've explained that's not the case, people still try and justify that the reason why their arguments don't work is because I'm telling everyone what to think (even though I've never told anyone to do anything in here). If I were even given a forum assistant status, it'd be like a nuclear war has just started for these people...

And that's why, I'm nominating myself as your new forum leader. I promise to rule over my fellow Gaians with both tyranny and contempt. ALL HAIL ME!