Gold Sink Auction Idea (Feedback + Pricing)

[EmmaWight]

I've been back to Gaia for a few days now after a frustrated hiatus. I threw in the towel back in May(ish) when the announcements got waaaaaay to frequent for me to pretend to care. A lot of this was caused by the insane amount of cash shop updates that I just didn't care about. I can understand Gaia needing to finance itself, and the avatar system is a creative and often fun way of doing it, but I was just so annoyed that it was shoved down my throat all the time.

Naturally, I started to miss gaia, so I came back for a day in the middle of July.
Just for a day.
Just a look at the marketplace.

I didn't come back for a more consistent stay until now, and even then I can't help but look around the site with a lot of stomach roiling uneasiness. The gold system has gotten way out of hand, and in my opinion there is very very little that gaia staff can ultimately do to stop it. Sure, they could make more gold sinks, but users will have to actually use them for the system to get fixed.

TL;DR: Gaia gold inflation is too goddamn high for it to be very enjoyable anymore.

So what I propose, getting back to one of my favourite past-times on Gaia, is a gold sink auction. It would work like pretty much any other auction, accepting ONLY gold as payment. Following the auction I would feed every last bit of it into a sink (probably a guild fund, since they accept the largest donations as far as I could tell).

I know that ultimately, with the nearly insurmountable amount of gold in the system, I'm not single-handedly going to even make a dent. What I do hope to achieve though is getting a mentality and a message out there. I want Gaia to be enjoyable for newcomers like it was for me, where I worked hard to get even a little bit of gold and got either items or artwork. Now it seems, unless you have a good spot of real cash to spend, it isn't going to be the once fun and welcoming community it used to be.

So what I want from you guys is...
Prices. I have no idea how much my artwork would go for on here anymore, and I want things to be scaled correctly. Auctions were always a little inflated (as is their nature) so I want things to be scaled a bit higher that my art would go for in the art shops forum. You can find samples here. I'd like to know what your bribe amount and your autobid maximum would be for a fullbody with no background..

Feedback. What do you think of the idea? Do you agree that inflation has gotten totally out of hand? Would fellow artists be up for an idea like this? Are their better methods of gold sinking out there that I haven't found?

Ideas. Have something you want to add? To criticize or share? Have at it! I want to learn what Gaians would think of a plan like this.

[Abyssal Wyvern]

pludonuto

(I'm gonna be really wordy so I apologize haha, I have just a couple of points to say as food for thought )
I wouldn't really consider myself a gaian rather than someone who stumbles here sometimes to do art for another website that isn't mabinogi-related so I haven't paid attention at all to the inflation until recently when I agreed to do a joint shop with a friend of mine (who is a very avid and up to date) gaian.

I actually don't understand why inflation has been this high in the first place, I would assume it's the people who run gaia's responsibility to maintain the markets? (Sorry I don't quite understand how it works here). I read a lot of posts about frustrated gaians who dislike the inflation. When I first started doing art for this website earlier this year I got like 20-50mil here and there, then earlier this summer I was getting 800mil max, and now I'm getting offers of 25bil per drawing and I'm really just like, confused more than anything haha. I mean I'm flattered but still really confused.

Here's a point I can make though with this inflation, it would take me around 3 art pieces or so to buy an item I'd want or something earlier this year when I first joined. If I wanted the same item right now, it still takes the same amount of artwork but the money paid is just adding in more zeros to me. So all in all the inflation really has't affected me as an artist who makes their income here via drawing. Same effort, can buy the same things because I can raise my own prices accordingly and still get interested clients.
I'd like to know how this affects people who cannot draw though. This gold sink idea is geared towards people who merchant/make gold via playing the gaian games here, yes? You mention new people but I want to know your opinion on how new gaians primarily make their income.

Here's the next part about this idea; I can agree that this is a good idea in thought because it evens out the playing field for everyone to have equal opportunity to have fun on this website again, but what about "gold generators" (sorry I do not fully understand this term and where it comes from on this website), are these things frequent enough to cancel out your efforts even if you did get a lot of artists on board with this idea?
Or are you saying you want this plan to occur for an indefinite amount of time to continuously cancel out the incoming gold?

Another thing to note is that this effort to change the mentality of how the gold is handled is entirely dependent on the people participating. You might get a lot of backlash for trying to start a community induced gold sink (not sure, but just saying as a possibility). When and if you get a ton of people on board with this idea do you plan on making your/the artist group's intentions public? If people dislike this idea they might not order from the artist groups. Again, I'm not sure how people think about this but it's a good idea to keep this in mind.

[EmmaWight]

Cquiles

Don't you worry about being wordy ;>

Inflation basically exploded with the introduction of gold generators. Stuff like Flynn's Booty or Flynn's Chest (which I admit I would open shops accepting those items exclusively) introduced trillions more gold into the system that caused it to spiral out of control. Gaia did remove them from the cash shop for a time, however they've introduced a new one as well.

For art commission gaians these changes generally don't mean too much, but even I didn't start out that way when I first got here. I earned gold by bumping threads, playing games, wandering through towns, and through raffles/lotteries. I didn't get into the art shops scene until 3 years after I joined.

Whether people like or dislike this idea and that sentiment transferring into whether or not they want to buy art isn't that much of a problem I think. I know there are many people out there who are tired of the inflation, and many who are indifferent. I have yet to find anyone who is outright supportive of it though. Another thing is that I could easily take the hate, being raised on the internet has maxed out my capability to ignore the ignorant or hateful.

Ultimately, gold for the avatar system is one of the biggest draws of the site, and unless you have the Gcash to back it up, you're not going to get very far. I don't think that's fair to new users and I want to do something to change it.

So my intentions would be 100% public (why try to hide it?), and the amounts would be recorded in the sink guild. I don't plan on changing my avatar anymore (I only ever used it as an art reference, and I have tektek for that), especially because I am using 100% gold shop items for it. This is my new goal when I'm on Gaia, and I'm going to do my best to make it happen.

[Annaving]

Honestly, no user-initiated gold sink will make a difference in the midst of all the gold generators that are consistently released. It could raise awareness, but that is pretty much it. You also run the risk of perpetuating the problem because many commissioners now use the cash shop as a way to turn rl funds into gold to commission artists. It's the main way that non-artists afford art.

I have been bothered by the same issue, though, and have been thinking about how to address it. I propose an alternative idea:

Would it be possible to run an "art trade" auction instead of an art for gold auction? You communicate the same message - "inflation sucks and I refuse to participate it in" while also benefiting from the auction.

For example, you offer a set type of art: fullbody cg chibi. Then other artists can "bid" by offering their art. First person might offer a fullbody sketch. They may be "outbid" by someone offering a fullbody cg + background. Obviously it becomes a lot more subjective due to considering the art quality....

Anyways, I have wanted to try it myself but I think I lack the activity to keep the thread alive. I am curious as to your thoughts.

[C e r u l e a n]

Cquiles

I'd like to know how this affects people who cannot draw though. This gold sink idea is geared towards people who merchant/make gold via playing the gaian games here, yes? You mention new people but I want to know your opinion on how new gaians primarily make their income.

(I'll try not to be too wordy too sweatdrop )

Pegging back on what pludonuto said about bumping threads, playing games, etc, non-gaian artists still primarily make their income on Gaia that way. Everyday, my 'first post' on Gaia is 125g and I think it goes down steadily after that. I don't play games so I can't speak for that very much, but the most I ever made hanging around Towns from shaking trees is about 20g/shake (assuming there was any gold left). Assuming I can make 500g from posting everyday plus 500g for hanging around towns (assuming I don't spend more than 5 or more hours on Gaia >.>; ), that's 1k a day. In one year, that's 365k, but that's not even enough for afford the least sought after item (by which I mean, donation, rig, chance items). But considering the rate of inflation, 365k would be the new 10g or something next year. >.>

It used to be that you can make at least 100k a day through bootygrabs and a few other things, I think, (sourced from a Gaian's guide to making more gold on the user run GaiaOnline Magazine), but... even 100k is worthless now. Unless you're a good artist or got a head start (either by having rich gaia friends or starting early on Gaia way before inflation hit), no one is very likely to move up gold income ladder >.>;

I went to the Gaia Panel at Anime Expo this year. One user claimed she was 40 days old and found it discouraging she couldn't even get the 'nice items' and asked (was it DJ?) the only panelist there what they were doing to bridge income gap. His answer was that she just got 10mil gold that day (or however much they were gonna give us), JUST because she came to the panel. A lot of people laughed, including me, but, only because it was a quick-save answer from the panelist--in that he had no answer and a joke was probably better than, "I'm sorry, but you're basically screwed and on your own." When I was walking out, I overheard her say something along the lines, "Great, now I can go buy myself a button on Gaia that's pretty much worthless." Seriously, 10mil gold? It's... depressing -.-

@pludonuto: My skepticism says it's not likely to be very popular but I commend you for the thought. It would need to be at a scale large enough to effect the Gaia economy, and not everyone on Gaia will come to obtain art. You/we would need to think bigger and more outside the box to make any significant change.

On the other hand, I really like Annaving idea of an art-trade auction except that not every auction bidder is an artist and not every artist is at the same level. It also hits a much smaller market than originally intended: point being, not every buyer is an artist. It seems to defeat the purpose.... Even if the idea becomes popular and takes on its own life, branching off from what it intended, I can see things getting spiraling down really fast, and not in an entirely good way.

In a nutshell, I've nothing. Just some thoughts. sweatdrop

[Annaving]

C e r u l e a n

On the other hand, I really like Annaving idea of an art-trade auction except that not every auction bidder is an artist and not every artist is at the same level. It also hits a much smaller market than originally intended: point being, not every buyer is an artist. It seems to defeat the purpose....

That is the downside... I suppose the only way it would be successful is if we put enough pressure on the consumers to stop buying gcash items as a way to afford art. Those that cannot draw are pushed to rlc and those that can draw can cut out the middle man (gaia gold) and trade art for art.

The most frustrating thing for me is that I can't even effectively use gaia gold to commission art anymore. If I sell art for gold, I'll then use the gold to commission another artist. But by the time that I accept the payment, find an artist, leave the trade pending for who knows how long... the value of the gold has dropped exponentially x__x

I get that GCash is making rl gaia staff tons of rl money.... but I don't think their current business practices are sustainable.

[C e r u l e a n]

Annaving

Yeah, except if we cut out the middle man, we're too close, if not breaking TOS sweatdrop . As far as I know, the only thing we can do regarding RLC is mention it in our sigis. Can't even mention it in our threads, I think (though I think most do it anyway).

You and I have that same issue about finally getting gold only to have it drop before the artist and I can come to an agreement -.-

What I'd really like to know is how much they're actually making from gcash and where that money is going.... and why. Is it really to maintain the site as they say? It just seems so excessive to me....>.>

[Abyssal Wyvern]

(I'm going to start making less sense because I'm verrrrry tired but maybe this will make another few points for thought; I'm mostly referencing this from my mabinogi experiences in the economy so it might not really fit into here)

The reason there is inflation is mostly due to the large amount of gold in the markets, right?

Well...
You might also want to think that inflation caused because of how much people charge for things; this is how we know there's a lot of gold circulating in the economy in the first place.
Another thing is that the reason that people put things this high is because they know people will buy them for that high. So it's partially our fault as well (I mean not everyone, some people just don't buy things, but this is a generalization).

It takes two to tango, as my math teacher always said. Inflation is not a one person dance in my opinion.

Getting artists to not participate in the inflation is a good start, getting people to stop participating in the markets and change how they play the market game is what's going to make or break the whole idea to make the economy more newbie gaian friendly. It relies on everyone on the entire website participating, not just artists. That would certainly make a statement to the people running gaia.

But, theoretically speaking most of the people on this website probably wouldn't want to do that. One because if people sold their items for less, there's always going to be someone who buys it just to resell it for higher. As my political science teacher says, there will always be a chance to defect from an agreement if they can profit and get away with it. Unless we put in rules to punish people who didn't go with the idea of helping the gold sink, there's just no way in heck everyone can agree on helping and then the whole plan would go down the drain as long as there is gold in the economy to support inflation. Plus the point of the marketing thing is to gain profits, not be fair to everyone.


-----------------tl;dr--------------------
I guess the whole point of everything I just said is that
1. it's somewhat our fault as a community for new people not affording things using regular gold earning methods. The gold was there and we took it.
2. Being able to change how people do markets might be the key thing to do since it looks like we cannot successfully create a community induced gold sink due to the fact that not everyone buys art. Art is a very small part of gaia, the markets are where the most gold circulates.
3. We probably cannot change the markets since we have resellers all the time (I'm just assuming this part so correct me if I'm wrong.)
4. In conclusion; I believe this inflation is a lost cause. We cannot stop it. All hope is lost, yo.

[EmmaWight]

Bump, still looking for pricers

[Buggie Running Beeps]

Right! Your stuff is ni-ice! I'd say you could get like 10-15bil for a chibi easily and who knows how high your full bodies could go in an auction! I've recently come back and I've gotten offers between 3bil-30bil for my work ^^;

Hop around the art request forums and offer to let buyers name their price- I have gotten a lot more savvy just by seeing what I get offered and what other people have offered for their art on return =3

I'm pretty cheesed off about the hyperinflation as well- I'm an 03-er (waiting for my old account to get unlocked still :'( ) and the gold gen items and constant announcements have been incredibly annoying.

What I'm planning to do is to do as many commissions as possible and use the gold to bid for items in Flynn's Auctions- probably the best goodsink on the site. When I hoard up enough super cool popular items, I was planning on having a huge art comp and give away the items as prizes- that way, no more gold goes into the system and I get a heap of awesome art heart

It's not much, but artists are capable of making a decent Gaian 'income' so I feel that artists are in the second best position to raise awareness about the impact of gold generation items on the economy (second only to exchangers)

[EmmaWight]

I'm glad this topic hasn't died yet!

Buggie Running Beeps

Flynn's auctions and the newbie guild event seem to be doing a really good job of sinking gold. There was a spike a few days ago though, which means the system is still pretty flawed. If they add 4-5 other gold sinks then things will probably equalize much quicker.

Even if there was something like an unsubscribed service, where if you put down a donation of so much Gcash you'd be exempt from announcements for a month or something.

I agree about the position of artists. They're some of the busiest forums on the site and folks are always buying. For artists that are super active on the site especially, they can do a lot for the economy. I think most of them just don't know it yet.