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Debt is something that can be resolved. I'm more worried about negligence and libertarianism pulling the US apart.


Quote:
Libertarianism is a political theory that advocates the maximization of individual liberty in thought and action and the minimization or even abolition of the state.


Now explain why your crying "Libertarianism is going to pull us apart".

The only thing that keeps us safe is the government. It has the police to protect us from domestic threats and keep the peace. It has the military to prevent a foreign invasion. You can preach freedom that libertarianism promises, but it's only a bi-product of an anti-government agenda.




You make me laugh. It's quite amusing.

Explain to me why it is that many people b***h about the government getting to big (right-wingers included)? Are you even making sense to yourself at this point?
The government protects us from negative foreign things, yes. However read the word "STATE" in said other post of mine. The individual state government doesn't do what the big government does. So what point are you making? There is a difference between "anti-government" and "increase the individuals freedoms".


As a little note: The government should not be able to tell persons what drugs they can or cannot take, smoke, inject etc. Yet if people like me say this, people like you are all "OOoooo anti-government".

No.
Wendigo
Chains4w
Balanced budgets will then become the rule of law, and we'll be set indefinitely.
You don't actually know what the phrase "rule of law" means, do you?

So anyway. Given that we have been buried under debt for as long as anyone now living can remember, I wouldn't consider it an imminent concern. If worse comes to worst, we could raise taxes like we used to do when we wanted to spend a lot of money, and spend it on paying off our debts instead.


Wendingo, you have no idea just how much debt we are in...and Obama's Dems have planned for us. Do you understand how a rise in interest rates can impact our ability to pay the debt? If today we actually turned loose capitalism and tried to grow our way out of it we have a realistic chance. If we try to tax our way our of it, without significant economic growth, it will be impossible.

THE only real way to get out from under this foolish debt we put on our kids and grand-kids, is to reform the entitlement programs, repeal the healthcare bill and Bush's prescription drug plan. AND MOST IMPORTANT, kick out the politicians, be they Dem or GOP, who haven't the ethical courage to stop spending more money than the taxpayers give them to run gov't.
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Wendingo, you have no idea just how much debt we are in...
Sure I have an idea. As of this moment, according to the Treasury, there's about 12.87 trillion dollars in debt outstanding. 8.35 trillion of that held by the public (T-bills, that sort of thing), and 4.52 trillion held by one government fund or another.

Anyway, about thirteen million million dollars in all. Given that the US GDP is nearly 15 trillion, were some minuscule fragment of our collective effort spent on diminishing the debt every year, say 5% or $.73 trillion, then it would still disappear rather quickly. Since no effort whatsoever is put on shrinking the debt, ever, it just gets bigger. Which is unfortunate, because new interest on old debt is a large contributor to its current size. $164 billion in this year's budget.

China's particular stake in our debt is just short of a trillion dollars (by $123 billion or so), and is included in that publicly held debt. The total owned by all foreign nations is less than the amount the government owes itself.

Quote:
If today we actually turned loose capitalism and tried to grow our way out of it we have a realistic chance.
Pft. Capitalism isn't magic, money would have to be spent directly on reducing the debt in any case, and the only way to finance that without borrowing money (which would just use debt to pay debt) would be using taxes.
Bento the spazcat
252 days. That's how long til 2012, when Palin wins the presidency in a massive anti-democrat anti-obama crapfest, and blunders relations with north korea, causing WW3.

Hahaha, that's actually clever and all, but I'm personally hoping to get it out to enough people to vote moderate instead.

Moderate. Like the sound of that word? It's like "You can't call us Stupid Democrats, you can't call us Soulless Republicans!"


And to those who say Capitalism isn't magic, yes it is. In a way. Just based on the way Capitalism as a system works, it would be able to get itself out of any financial crisis, just in a longer amount of time than with government help. But given that the government is doing worse than the people at the moment... Well, we don't want to put too much of a strain on it.

Or it to start taxing us into oblivion and not end up stopping once the economy comes back. Trust me, when the government has extra money, there's always some need for it somewhere.
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I doubt the US will fall like the Roman Empire fell.

...And now I can't get the image of Canadians dressed as vikings riding moose and wielding hockey sticks out of my head.

Edit: And I don't see the major nations in the world allowing the US to fall, as there would be a MASSIVE power gap, and there would be utter chaos in trying to fill that gap.

Did the Roman empire collapse because it was too big and hard to communicate between the parts of it?
Wendigo
Dermezel

You do know we get most of our imports from China right? Look at everything that says made in China. And then kiss that good bye.
You know what that would mean? We could buy our cheap crap from countries that respect the human rights of their citizens. Or make it ourselves. There are countries all over the world who want to sell cheap crap, and don't get the chance because China is hogging our market.


And what if you're wrong?

What if our dollar declines in value while China's currency goes up? What if nobody else takes our deflated, now worthless currency?

What if other countries see how we ripped China off and refuse to trade with us?

Do you really think that it is impossible? Or are you assuming that China doesn't want to get cut up?
Dermezel
LibertyTree1776


Amen. The Dems already jumped off of the cliff w/ healthcare


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Democrats ARE the big spenders. The reason the debt goes up with GOP presidents is because the GOP reduces taxes, while the DEMS, until the last Bush administration, keep increasing spending. The DEMS spend whether we have it or not.

Look at California. The Federal gov't is just a huge California. Last year, with a GOP governor, CA was slaughtered with the single largest tax increase in CA's history...maybe even the largest in U.S. history. Gov't promised that the record tax increase would balance the budget.

But DEMS run our legislature by almost 2-1. The big spenders in Sacramento don't like cutting real spending and fight to reduce the scheduled INCREASE in spending. With real unemployment at almost 18% in CA, not a single gov't employee has been laid off. The unemployment rate for gov't workers is 0%!

But wait! There's more! After promising voters that the record tax increase would balance the budget? Turns out our trustworthy gov't bureacracy, the one libs want to run everything...were wrong...by a mere $22 Billion. The DEMS only solution is higher taxes again, which worked so well last year.

Welcome to the fantasy world of modern liberalism. (Not traditional liberalism!) I'm talking about the cancer that infects today's DEMS. Traditional Dems would put up with this either.
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Wendigo
Dermezel
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Dermezel
Just be nice to China.
Just for the record, China just owns a big chunk of our international debt. If I recall correctly, most of our debt is owed to taxpayers holding Treasury paper.


The foreign owned debt could be a major trigger for collapse. Again, what do we gain by testing them on this matter?
Personally, I don't understand what we gain from dealing monetarily with China in any way at all. But Nixon's dead, so I can't ask him.


You do know we get most of our imports from China right? Look at everything that says made in China. And then kiss that good bye.

Also China owns currency loans: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/2813630/China-threatens-nuclear-option-of-dollar-sales.html

Quote:
The Chinese government has begun a concerted campaign of economic threats against the United States, hinting that it may liquidate its vast holding of US treasuries if Washington imposes trade sanctions to force a yuan revaluation.

Two officials at leading Communist Party bodies have given interviews in recent days warning - for the first time - that Beijing may use its $1.33 trillion (£658bn) of foreign reserves as a political weapon to counter pressure from the US Congress.


So get ready to kiss your pampered middle class lifestyle good bye. Just keep bluffing man, rolling the dice and hoping for a seven.


Are you implying the Chinese want to lose a giant chunk of demand for their export goods?
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What the US would consider financial collapse, most 2nd and third world countries would call Tuesday.
Appel Juice
What the US would consider financial collapse, most 2nd and third world countries would call Tuesday.
Why do you use outdated terminology?
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Dermezel
And what if you're wrong?

What if our dollar declines in value while China's currency goes up? What if nobody else takes our deflated, now worthless currency?

What if other countries see how we ripped China off and refuse to trade with us?

Do you really think that it is impossible? Or are you assuming that China doesn't want to get cut up?
What if we've had other countries fulfill China's monkey-boy role in the past, such as post-war Japan and present-day Mexico, and we aren't particular about who does it?
YuriOfSexyland DIMD
God Emperor Akhenaton
YuriOfSexyland DIMD
God Emperor Akhenaton
Debt is something that can be resolved. I'm more worried about negligence and libertarianism pulling the US apart.


Quote:
Libertarianism is a political theory that advocates the maximization of individual liberty in thought and action and the minimization or even abolition of the state.


Now explain why your crying "Libertarianism is going to pull us apart".

The only thing that keeps us safe is the government. It has the police to protect us from domestic threats and keep the peace. It has the military to prevent a foreign invasion. You can preach freedom that libertarianism promises, but it's only a bi-product of an anti-government agenda.




You make me laugh. It's quite amusing.

Explain to me why it is that many people b***h about the government getting to big (right-wingers included)? Are you even making sense to yourself at this point?
The government protects us from negative foreign things, yes. However read the word "STATE" in said other post of mine. The individual state government doesn't do what the big government does. So what point are you making? There is a difference between "anti-government" and "increase the individuals freedoms".


As a little note: The government should not be able to tell persons what drugs they can or cannot take, smoke, inject etc. Yet if people like me say this, people like you are all "OOoooo anti-government".

No.

Here, enlighten yourself.
Hey kids, ever hear of paranoia?

it's this monster that pops up in short-sighted morons who see one problem and go

"Oh s**t everything's gonna go down the tubes"

without looking into our past and seeing that us and other countries have been through much worse sh*t.

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