You Knew It Was Coming: The Zimmerman Verdict Thread

[Wendigo]

Wadzworth929

Since we're all speculating here, let me offer a possible scenario. Martin runs, Zimmerman thinks he's supposed to follow, so he starts running in the same direction. Dispatcher tells him not to persue. Zimmerman stops running, and instead starts walking around looking at house numbers and street signs to find a place to meet while talking on the phone with the dispatcher. Therefore he wasn't getting out of the car to see the signs, but since he was already out of the car and no longer persuing, he starts walking around, which is how he ended up at the site of the incident. Is this a reasonable scenario?

No, because Zimmerman's statements to police require that he got out of the car to look at street signs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7qfkRTC5gF4#t=266s

His getting out of the car to locate and follow Martin contradicts his statements, which means either that his memory is mistaken, or he is a liar.

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Even if all of that is true, Martin still tried to beat the crap out of a total stranger, and getting shot was the unfortunate result. Which means Zimmerman fired in self-defense. Both made mistakes. Martin's mistake was a much bigger one.

Since Martin didn't kill anybody that night, I'd say that Zimmerman's mistake was the bigger. Whether he had a good reason to make it at 7:15 or not.

Personally, I think that he made his biggest mistake by getting out of his safe vehicle a few minutes before that to track down a person whose presence made him suspicious of criminal activity, when police would be along in minutes to ask him about that person and go look for him.

Martin's mistake, conversely, would appear to be walking in public in the South after dark, where he was threatened by the suspicions and fears of others, and a legal system complicit in those suspicions and fears.

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It could also be interpreted as, keep an eye on him so that we can find him when the police arrive. Zimmerman may have thought up until the moment the dispatcher told him not to persue that it was his duty to follow the suspect.

I rather doubt that. He'd made these calls before, dozens of times. Presumably he could work out what he did and did not need to do to resolve things on his end.

But for those 18 seconds, he might have managed to believe that his moving toward where Martin was would be a good thing. Then for the next couple minutes he was on the phone, he could move back to where he had been when he called, and get back in his car, where he'd be safer and drier. (Because what law-abiding citizen would be out in the rain looking at houses in the middle of the night?)

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At least agree with me that Martin isn't an innocent little 12 year old boy like the public thinks he is and then we don't have to discuss marijuana or thugness any further.

Of course he isn't, he was 17. He went to high school. He cared about the things young people care about, like current trends in music and impressing people he wouldn't know in a year and a half. It stands to reason that, since he had all his arms and legs and seemed to be in fairly good shape, that he was capable of violence.

The inference that he attacked Zimmerman unprovoked is a separate question, and one with which I disagree. Of course, from his perspective, he was being followed in the night by an older man he didn't know. ("Stranger danger" they call it in PSA Land.) Zimmerman saw Martin as he entered the neighborhood (Martin may have seen him as well), then later on he describes him circling the vehicle. When Zimmerman got out of that vehicle and followed after him on foot, what should Martin have believed about the next few minutes? This man is following me to help me get home safely?

[Chris Powell]

Wadzworth929

Omnileech

By saying he is a bad person because he enjoys rap music. Is every person who likes rap music a thug now?

By saying he smoked marijuana? Half of the country has too.

Is half of America, including Obama and Clinton thugs? Or maybe it's just the African-American children?

Not everyone who plays violent games is a murderer, however violence has dramatically increased because of violent media. Rap music often speaks about being thugs and starting fights and committing crimes. No not everyone who listens to rap is a thug, but I'd say rap music is detrimental to our society.

Gah, one of my pet peeves. According the FBI, the violent crime rate has been falling since 1990. And this table shows that the violent crime kept dropping in 2010 and 2011.

Violent media does NOT increase the violence rate. There is no proof of this.

[azulmagia]

Wadzworth929

azulmagia

The only thing one can logically infer from injuries is who got the worst in a fight, not who started it. By the same logic, if all data about the conflict between Japan and America in WW II were completely lost except for casualties, ships lost and locations bombed, future historians would have to conclude that America struck first.

America and Japan both walked away with numerous destroyed ships and numerous dead soldiers. Where are Martin's injuries? He has none.

You're forgetting about that bullet hole I believe...

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azulmagia

For all we know, Zimmerman threw the first punch, but it failed to connect. If Trayvon could best Zimmerman in combat, it also stands to reason that he could dodge better, too. I don't see how you can assert the one while denying the other. Don't give this "it's more likely" s**t that Trayvon attacked first. That's so nebulous an assessment as to be worthless. Reasonable doubt therefore cuts both ways.

Nebulous to me is assuming reasonable doubt both ways which means neither of them threw the first punch. Instead let's look at what's most logical. Zimmerman had injuries. Martin had none. Martin had motive (creepy guy following him). Zimmerman had none (hey I see a suspicious black kid, I'm gonna follow him and if I catch up to him the first thing I'll do is punch him in the face).

"....Which mean neither or them threw the first punch"? What the ******** is that s**t?! Of course someone threw the first punch. rolleyes If you think the "evidence" allows you to deduce who started it, then you're about as much an intellectual as Juror B37.

[Omnileech]

Wadzworth929

Omnileech

By saying he is a bad person because he enjoys rap music. Is every person who likes rap music a thug now?

By saying he smoked marijuana? Half of the country has too.

Is half of America, including Obama and Clinton thugs? Or maybe it's just the African-American children?

Not everyone who plays violent games is a murderer, however violence has dramatically increased because of violent media. Rap music often speaks about being thugs and starting fights and committing crimes. No not everyone who listens to rap is a thug, but I'd say rap music is detrimental to our society.

That's beside the point. The point is, Trayvon Martin isn't an innocent little 12 year old boy. He was a 17 year old with a history of behavioral problems and absolutely capable of having started a fight with a stranger and holding him down with his legs while throwing MMA style punches.

And? Video games don't cause people to be criminals and music doesn't cause people to be criminals either. Zimmerman was also exposed to violent media unless he didn't play video games, didn't watch television, and didn't watch movies, and only listened to music about people doing legal things. He has a criminal record and was absolutely capable of starting a fight with a stranger, and then killing them because he got minor injuries. And yet you hold some double standard about it all because you're trying to justify Martin's death. What you allege isn't backed by any concrete evidence and you keep insisting that Martin was some sort of thug because he behavioral problems typical of most 17 year old boys and you don't like marijuana and you don't like rap music. For all you know Zimmerman threw the first punch.

People aren't thugs just because they have taken a recreational drug and they like music that you don't like. So drop the double standard.

[Kaltros]

Wendigo

Martin's mistake, conversely, would appear to be walking in public in the South after dark, where he was threatened by the suspicions and fears of others, and a legal system complicit in those suspicions and fears.

Martin's biggest mistake was starting a fistfight with a man who had a gun. Or perhaps profiling Zimmerman as a gay rapist, or, in black speak, a "Creepy a** cracka".

[Wendigo]

Kaltros

Wendigo

Martin's mistake, conversely, would appear to be walking in public in the South after dark, where he was threatened by the suspicions and fears of others, and a legal system complicit in those suspicions and fears.

Martin's biggest mistake was starting a fistfight with a man who had a gun. Or perhaps profiling Zimmerman as a gay rapist, or, in black speak, a "Creepy a** cracka".

That phrase doesn't mean rapist, "creepy a**" is a degree of creepy beyond the norm for creepiness, and a creepy a** cracker is a white man who is especially creepy.

Cracker, of course, being a racial slur referring to white trash.

[Kaltros]

Wendigo

Kaltros

Wendigo

Martin's mistake, conversely, would appear to be walking in public in the South after dark, where he was threatened by the suspicions and fears of others, and a legal system complicit in those suspicions and fears.

Martin's biggest mistake was starting a fistfight with a man who had a gun. Or perhaps profiling Zimmerman as a gay rapist, or, in black speak, a "Creepy a** cracka".

That phrase doesn't mean rapist, "creepy a**" is a degree of creepy beyond the norm for creepiness, and a creepy a** cracker is a white man who is especially creepy.

Cracker, of course, being a racial slur referring to white trash.

Rapist, creep, sexual pervert. You're trying to split hairs again. When Rachel Jeantel was on the stand, she said after Martin used the term "creepy a** cracker" she said Zimmerman might be a rapist, so Martin better run. Or perhaps the term works better as "Creepy a**-cracker".

But, to continue with your line, do you think those perceived as rapists aren't usually perceived as having "a degree of creepy beyond the norm for creepiness"?

[Wendigo]

Kaltros

When Rachel Jeantel was on the stand, she said after Martin used the term "creepy a** cracker" she said Zimmerman might be a rapist, so Martin better run. Or perhaps the term works better as "Creepy a**-cracker".

That's her own interjection, her interpretation of what might have been going on in his mind at the time he used the word. None of those three words refers specifically to rape. The combo of three words does not refer specifically to rape.

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But, to continue with your line, do you think those perceived as rapists aren't usually perceived as having "a degree of creepy beyond the norm for creepiness"?

Rapists are considered creepy, for sure. Rape, robbery or murder would all be potential creepy motives for following a teenager in the middle of the night when it's raining.

And of course, one of them actually happened a few minutes later.

[Kaltros]

Wendigo

Kaltros

When Rachel Jeantel was on the stand, she said after Martin used the term "creepy a** cracker" she said Zimmerman might be a rapist, so Martin better run. Or perhaps the term works better as "Creepy a**-cracker".

That's her own interjection, her interpretation of what might have been going on in his mind at the time he used the word. None of those three words refers specifically to rape. The combo of three words does not refer specifically to rape.

They don't exclude rape, either. And Jeantel didn't say anything about Martin replying to her interjection along the lines of "No, I don't think he's a pervert, but maybe he wants to kill me."

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But, to continue with your line, do you think those perceived as rapists aren't usually perceived as having "a degree of creepy beyond the norm for creepiness"?

Rapists are considered creepy, for sure. Rape, robbery or murder would all be potential creepy motives for following a teenager in the middle of the night when it's raining.

And of course, one of them actually happened a few minutes later.

Zimmerman was defending himself to keep from getting pounded to death by Martin. How does that qualify as murder? Killing in self defense and murder are not the same thing.

But, that's a side issue for our discussion. Do you have any way to definitively rule out fearing rape as a motive for Trayvon to attack Zimmerman?

[Wendigo]

Kaltros

They don't exclude rape, either. And Jeantel didn't say anything about Martin replying to her interjection along the lines of "No, I don't think he's a pervert, but maybe he wants to kill me."

Not that he could have, because she didn't say that to him. She said she thought it. By the time a response to that statement was possible, in court, he was dead and in the ground.

According to Jeantel, the long form of creepy a** cracker was "creepy, white, kill-my-neighbors cracker." Not that I'm entirely in favor of taking her testimony verbatim.

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Zimmerman was defending himself to keep from getting pounded to death by Martin. How does that qualify as murder? Killing in self defense and murder are not the same thing.

But, that's a side issue for our discussion. Do you have any way to definitively rule out fearing rape as a motive for Trayvon to attack Zimmerman?

He was doing something. The defense lawyers' version is that he was pounced upon from the bushes and severely beaten, although none of the testimony about his injuries favored a severe beating. And the conversation which Zimmerman alleged to occur ("You've got a problem NOW," he says) before he was attacked is inconsistent with ambush.

Can't rule out anything as far as possible motives for Martin to attack Zimmerman. Fear for his safety would seem to be the obvious one. Who knows why somebody would follow you in the middle of the night? Surely not out of concern for you.

[Kaltros]

Wendigo

Kaltros

They don't exclude rape, either. And Jeantel didn't say anything about Martin replying to her interjection along the lines of "No, I don't think he's a pervert, but maybe he wants to kill me."

Not that he could have, because she didn't say that to him. She said she thought it. By the time a response to that statement was possible, in court, he was dead and in the ground.

According to Jeantel, the long form of creepy a** cracker was "creepy, white, kill-my-neighbors cracker." Not that I'm entirely in favor of taking her testimony verbatim.

Actually, Jeantel said she talked with Martin on the phone about some of it, and described Zimmerman as a possible rapist.

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MORGAN: But you -- but you felt that there was no doubt in your mind from what Trayvon was telling you on the phone about the creepy a** cracka and so on, that he absolutely believed that George Zimmerman, this man, you didn't know who he was at the time, but this man, was pursuing him?

JEANTEL: Yes.

MORGAN: And he was freaked out by it?

JEANTEL: Yes. Definitely after I say may be a rapist, for every boy, for every man, every -- who's not that kind of way, seeing a grown man following them, would they be creep out? So you have to take it -- as a parent, when you tell your child, when you see a grown person following you, run away, and all that.

Would you go stand there? You going to tell your child stand there? If you tell your child stand there, we're going to see your child on the news for missing person.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1307/15/pmt.01.html

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Zimmerman was defending himself to keep from getting pounded to death by Martin. How does that qualify as murder? Killing in self defense and murder are not the same thing.

But, that's a side issue for our discussion. Do you have any way to definitively rule out fearing rape as a motive for Trayvon to attack Zimmerman?

He was doing something. The defense lawyers' version is that he was pounced upon from the bushes and severely beaten, although none of the testimony about his injuries favored a severe beating. And the conversation which Zimmerman alleged to occur ("You've got a problem NOW," he says) before he was attacked is inconsistent with ambush.

Broken nose, various wounds on the back of his head. Zimmerman's injuries ought to speak for themselves. Trayvon's main wound -- the only one I'm aware of, in fact -- is the gunshot that killed him. And, after checking a bit, one more 'wound', broken skin on Travyon's knuckles.

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Autopsy results confirm that Trayvon Martin sustained injuries to his knuckles before he was gunned down in a Florida gated community.

The medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: the fatal gunshot wound on his chest and broken skin on his knuckles, according to WFTV.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/autopsy-shows-trayvon-martin-injuries-knuckles-report-article-1.1079190

[Wendigo]

Kaltros

Actually, Jeantel said she talked with Martin on the phone about some of it, and described Zimmerman as a possible rapist.

Ah yes, I see it in the Piers Morgan transcript. Must have missed that; what I'd gotten was during the trial, where she said "when he said that, what I thought is that it might be a rapist." Or words to that effect.

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Broken nose, various wounds on the back of his head. Zimmerman's injuries ought to speak for themselves. Trayvon's main wound -- the only one I'm aware of, in fact -- is the gunshot that killed him. And, after checking a bit, one more 'wound', broken skin on Travyon's knuckles.

Ahem.

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Dr. Valerie Rao, who was called by the prosecution to provide her assessment of Zimmerman's injuries based on photos, cast doubt on Zimmerman's claim his head was repeatedly bashed against the pavement as he fought with Martin in the Feb. 26, 2012 incident.

"The injuries are so minor that the word slam implies great force," Rao said in response to questioning by prosecutor John Guy. "There was not great force used here."

Rao said Zimmerman's injuries were not only "not life threatening" but were also "very insignificant." She said the injuries to the back of Zimmerman's head were consistent with hitting the ground but the injuries on his face were from consistent with one punch or strike.

Under questioning by defense attorney Mark O'Mara, Rao acknowledged she was appointed by state attorney Angela Corey, who is overseeing the prosecution of Zimmerman. She also conceded that while Zimmerman's injuries were consistent with one punch, it does not mean that he was not hit repeatedly.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/02/detective-returns-to-stand-in-zimmerman-trial/#ixzz2ZSxTsr5T

Consistent, perhaps, with being punched in the face one time, and hitting the sidewalk one time on the back of his head. Did not require stitches. Did not leave blood on Martin's hands, although prolonged contact with the area around Zimmerman's bloody nose alleged by Zimmerman.

Not significant injury. May have felt worse to Zimmerman than it was (producing fear of imminent death as per his self defense claim), but not a danger to his life. I have personally had worse from falling off a chair.

[Wadzworth929]

Heimdalr

1. Does it come to you naturally,

?

Heimdair

and
2. is that really not a motive; the beating up of, in general, "suspicious-looking" black people?

I submit that no. Such a motive is practically non-existent in today's society and for you to presume it onto white people before reading the facts of the case makes you a racist.

[Heimdalr]

Wadzworth929

Heimdalr

1. Does it come to you naturally,

?

Heimdair

and
2. is that really not a motive; the beating up of, in general, "suspicious-looking" black people?

I submit that no. Such a motive is practically non-existent in today's society and for you to presume it onto white people before reading the facts of the case makes you a racist.

No, I'm going from what you said. "(hey I see a suspicious black kid, I'm gonna follow him and if I catch up to him the first thing I'll do is punch him in the face)"

That doesn't immediately seem legal; (It's Florida though, who knows) but more importantly, I don't see how that's not at least tantamount to premeditation.

[Wadzworth929]

Wendigo

Wadzworth929

Since we're all speculating here, let me offer a possible scenario. Martin runs, Zimmerman thinks he's supposed to follow, so he starts running in the same direction. Dispatcher tells him not to persue. Zimmerman stops running, and instead starts walking around looking at house numbers and street signs to find a place to meet while talking on the phone with the dispatcher. Therefore he wasn't getting out of the car to see the signs, but since he was already out of the car and no longer persuing, he starts walking around, which is how he ended up at the site of the incident. Is this a reasonable scenario?

No, because Zimmerman's statements to police require that he got out of the car to look at street signs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7qfkRTC5gF4#t=266s

His getting out of the car to locate and follow Martin contradicts his statements, which means either that his memory is mistaken, or he is a liar.

I'm presenting a hypothetical scenario to try to make the facts all line up. In this scenario, he obviously wouldn't have gotten out of the car to look at signs (contradicting some of his statements), but the rest of the facts still line up putting Zimmerman and Martin at the scene of the incident, of course without Zimmerman having been running or "persuing" after agreeing not to with the dispatcher because he claims that he stopped persuing then.

Wendigo

Since Martin didn't kill anybody that night, I'd say that Zimmerman's mistake was the bigger. Whether he had a good reason to make it at 7:15 or not.

Personally, I think that he made his biggest mistake by getting out of his safe vehicle a few minutes before that to track down a person whose presence made him suspicious of criminal activity, when police would be along in minutes to ask him about that person and go look for him.

Martin's mistake, conversely, would appear to be walking in public in the South after dark, where he was threatened by the suspicions and fears of others, and a legal system complicit in those suspicions and fears.

He got out of the car. A rather small mistake when the considerations of that moment are taken. Punching a stranger who's been following you (especially when you had plenty of time to get away or call the police) which results in your unfortunate death because the guy decides to defend himself against you as you throw MMA blows at him. I think Martin's mistake was much bigger.

There you go again with the race thing. Where's the evidence that Zimmerman is a racist? The fact that he shot the black kid who was beating him up? At best you could claim that Zimmerman "profiled" not in that he saw a black man and assumed he was a burglar, but in that he recognized that Martin fit the profile of previous burglars.

This is what I was saying before. If someone who happens to be black starts attacking me, I'm not going to be allowed to shoot because if I do half of this country is going to assume I'm a racist and want me dead.

Wendigo

I rather doubt that. He'd made these calls before, dozens of times. Presumably he could work out what he did and did not need to do to resolve things on his end.

But for those 18 seconds, he might have managed to believe that his moving toward where Martin was would be a good thing. Then for the next couple minutes he was on the phone, he could move back to where he had been when he called, and get back in his car, where he'd be safer and drier. (Because what law-abiding citizen would be out in the rain looking at houses in the middle of the night?)

The suspect already got away. He's in no rush.

Wendigo

At least agree with me that Martin isn't an innocent little 12 year old boy like the public thinks he is and then we don't have to discuss marijuana or thugness any further.

Of course he isn't, he was 17. He went to high school. He cared about the things young people care about, like current trends in music and impressing people he wouldn't know in a year and a half. It stands to reason that, since he had all his arms and legs and seemed to be in fairly good shape, that he was capable of violence.Fair enough.

Wendigo

The inference that he attacked Zimmerman unprovoked is a separate question, and one with which I disagree. Of course, from his perspective, he was being followed in the night by an older man he didn't know. ("Stranger danger" they call it in PSA Land.) Zimmerman saw Martin as he entered the neighborhood (Martin may have seen him as well), then later on he describes him circling the vehicle. When Zimmerman got out of that vehicle and followed after him on foot, what should Martin have believed about the next few minutes? This man is following me to help me get home safely?

What exactly do you believe happened in the actual moment when Zimmerman and Martin found themselves together but before they started fighting?