Would Conceal have prevented Aurora?

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

azulmagia

Old Blue Collar Joe

azulmagia

Why is it that the "solutions" offered by gunloons to such problems are invariably this dumb and full of backfire potential?

Yup. Cause those signs have stopped how many?

Wow. You're so stupid you think finding the flaw in the other guy's argument instantly validates your own.

Where'd I say my solution was flawless genius? I didn't. I've also pointed out that this entire discussion is purely an exercise in hypothetical situations and NO ONE can know the truth of what would have happened in that situation.
Some of us just don't believe disarming law abiding citizens is some magic fix.

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

Omnileech

Old Blue Collar Joe

Wendigo

Old Blue Collar Joe

Wendigo

Old Blue Collar Joe

Law abiding citizens see 'no guns allowed' and store their guns in their cars. Nutjobs see 'open range, no bag limit'.

A shooter like Holmes, who is almost certainly committing "suicide by police," could maybe care less. You're reading rational, informed decision-making into what is at its most basic an irrational act.

Within 20 minutes of his apartment there were numerous theaters, and this wasn't the largest or the closest. It was, however, the only one with a no gun proclamation.
He already exhibited by ordering ammo and other steps a predisposition to planning, and this assumption makes more sense than a 'well, more would have died if someone had actually be able to shoot back'.
No one knows. But as for his target? It definitely indicates he selected it potentially for that reason.

Let's have a look with Google maps, shall we? Coming from Paris Street, Aurora, where his apartment complex was, we have:

Cinemark Century 16, 2.9 miles away.
Cinema Grill, 2.6 miles away.
AMC Arapahoe Crossing 16, 11.8 miles away.
Aurora Movie Tavern, 10 or so miles away.
Southlands Stadium 16, 15-20 miles away.
Blockbuster Express, 5-7 miles away.
Aces's, just over a mile away. (Undoubtedly the closest, he could probably have walked.)

Those are the first 7 results on Google.

Surprise surprise, he went to the first theater listed on Google for Aurora, Colorado.

And what evidence is there that he didn't know where they all were to begin with since, well, he happens to live there?

You can't prove a negative. Your assertion is that a mentally ill man carefully researched gun policies of movie theatres and through meticulous research he picked one whose business owners decided wanted a "no concealed gun" policy and had signed informing the patrons and employees of their policy. Then, despite wearing better armor and being better-prepared than some swat teams, he was not expecting anyone to have a weapon because nobody ever breaks the rules at movie theatres and also assumed that no other firearm-wielding criminals would be on the premises either.

To that assertion you have no evidence of any of the assumptions that you are making.

Honestly, if you are at a movie theatre and someone is wearing ******** body armor, throws a gas grenade at the crowd, and then fires into the crowd with a 12 gauge shotgun, a semi-automatic rifle, and finally a Glock 22 handgun, how well do you honestly think any random person would be able to defend against themselves with a concealed weapon? Chances are they would either be so inaccurate that they would have more of a chance of shooting an innocent bystander or get killed by Holmes and give him another gun and more bullets to carry out his massacre.

Wait...you're equating mentally ill with stupid? Really?

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

Omnileech

How do you know that someone with a concealed weapon wasn't at the theater where the shooting was at? Because a sign told them not to? Because you assume that someone with a gun would choose to kill a shooter instead of running themselves?

If you are carrying concealed with a permit, and you violate a location with such a sign? You WILL face criminal charges and lose your permission to ever Carry Concealed again. While the odds aren't great that someone would have had a carry conceal to begin with, that sign virtually guarantees that, unless a CC holder just forgot (which is uncommon. We tend to know we're carrying and either avoid places that ban it or simply lock it in the car), we don't carry in those places.
Nor is there any evidence that a CC would have changed the outcome. We can armchair QB the entire event, but reality is that no one will ever know.
There's a big difference between firing a gun when you expect it and hearing one fired when you don't. Suicide by cop may have been his intention, but the reality is, now that he is in jail, he obviously backed off that plan because he realized it wasn't what he really wanted.
No way anyone can answer those, so these little pissing contests accomplish nothing.
My recommendation is mental health professionals required to report potentially dangerous people so they cannot buy a firearm without clearance from said doctor, or two others who disagree with that professional assessment.
Simply leaving that doctor will not eliminate someone from being considered potentially dangerous.
ALL gun sales (Note the word SALES, not gifts within family.) must take place through a licensed FFL dealer, much like how internet sales of firearms have to operate.
I've heard from many 'what about just ordering a gun off the internet'?
Reality is, you can't. It is shipped to a licensed FFL dealer within the area who will run the background check prior to giving the weapon to the buyer, and only then if he/she passes said background check.
If they don't? They ship it back to the seller.
Private sales should be channeled the same way. Go to a licensed FFL, they facilitate the background check and transfer, filling the numbers in their state kept files. Feds have no need for that.
Harsher sentences, such as minimum sentences, for using a gun in a break in/burglary, such as twenty years prior to even beginning to become eligible for parole.

[Wendigo]

Old Blue Collar Joe

Harsher sentences, such as minimum sentences, for using a gun in a break in/burglary, such as twenty years prior to even beginning to become eligible for parole.

You already get five *, what would the other fifteen do? I mean, aside from putting you in contact with recruiters for the major prison gangs for that much longer. And, y'know, making a lot more of Morgan Freeman's character from Shawshank Redemption.

[Omnileech]

Quote:

Wait...you're equating mentally ill with stupid? Really?

Anyone who would decide one day to shoot up a bunch of random people in a movie theatre, dye his hair red and call himself the Joker, and have his escape plan being "Blow up my apartment and the cops will be too busy to respond to me killing a bunch of people"

I didn't call him stupid, I called him irrational because he is. You keep assuming an irrational, insane person makes thoughtful, rational decisions for everything he did for a definitely irrational act.

Quote:

If you are carrying concealed with a permit, and you violate a location with such a sign? You WILL face criminal charges and lose your permission to ever Carry Concealed again. While the odds aren't great that someone would have had a carry conceal to begin with, that sign virtually guarantees that, unless a CC holder just forgot (which is uncommon. We tend to know we're carrying and either avoid places that ban it or simply lock it in the car), we don't carry in those places.

Yes, and I'm sure people don't litter when they see a no littering sign or don't run red lights or don't drive above the posted speed limit because everyone always dutifully follows the law even if they believe that they are law-abiding citizens.

You don't see a place with a "no guns" sign and automatically know for a fact that NOBODY on the premises doesn't have a firearm in their possession. Because many people don't care what is posted if they think the chances of getting caught are unlikely. And what of the people who missed the sign entirely? What if the parking lot is also movie theatre property and you are violating the "no weapons" policy whether your gun is in your car or not? There are PLENTY of reasons not to expect nobody to have a weapon anywhere you go.

Quote:

Nor is there any evidence that a CC would have changed the outcome. We can armchair QB the entire event, but reality is that no one will ever know.

Good to see that you had the sense to concede. You can't prove a negative.

[UF6]

Old Blue Collar Joe

Omnileech

Old Blue Collar Joe

Wendigo

Old Blue Collar Joe

Within 20 minutes of his apartment there were numerous theaters, and this wasn't the largest or the closest. It was, however, the only one with a no gun proclamation.
He already exhibited by ordering ammo and other steps a predisposition to planning, and this assumption makes more sense than a 'well, more would have died if someone had actually be able to shoot back'.
No one knows. But as for his target? It definitely indicates he selected it potentially for that reason.

Let's have a look with Google maps, shall we? Coming from Paris Street, Aurora, where his apartment complex was, we have:

Cinemark Century 16, 2.9 miles away.
Cinema Grill, 2.6 miles away.
AMC Arapahoe Crossing 16, 11.8 miles away.
Aurora Movie Tavern, 10 or so miles away.
Southlands Stadium 16, 15-20 miles away.
Blockbuster Express, 5-7 miles away.
Aces's, just over a mile away. (Undoubtedly the closest, he could probably have walked.)

Those are the first 7 results on Google.

Surprise surprise, he went to the first theater listed on Google for Aurora, Colorado.

And what evidence is there that he didn't know where they all were to begin with since, well, he happens to live there?

You can't prove a negative. Your assertion is that a mentally ill man carefully researched gun policies of movie theatres and through meticulous research he picked one whose business owners decided wanted a "no concealed gun" policy and had signed informing the patrons and employees of their policy. Then, despite wearing better armor and being better-prepared than some swat teams, he was not expecting anyone to have a weapon because nobody ever breaks the rules at movie theatres and also assumed that no other firearm-wielding criminals would be on the premises either.

To that assertion you have no evidence of any of the assumptions that you are making.

Honestly, if you are at a movie theatre and someone is wearing ******** body armour, throws a gas grenade at the crowd, and then fires into the crowd with a 12 gauge shotgun, a semi-automatic rifle, and finally a Glock 22 handgun, how well do you honestly think any random person would be able to defend against themselves with a concealed weapon? Chances are they would either be so inaccurate that they would have more of a chance of shooting an innocent bystander or get killed by Holmes and give him another gun and more bullets to carry out his massacre.

Wait...you're equating mentally ill with stupid? Really?

Seeing how you've used "retard" and "short bus" many times to equate mental illness to stupid, I don't think you're one to talk about this.

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

Steven Hawkings

Old Blue Collar Joe

Omnileech

Old Blue Collar Joe

Wendigo

Old Blue Collar Joe

Within 20 minutes of his apartment there were numerous theaters, and this wasn't the largest or the closest. It was, however, the only one with a no gun proclamation.
He already exhibited by ordering ammo and other steps a predisposition to planning, and this assumption makes more sense than a 'well, more would have died if someone had actually be able to shoot back'.
No one knows. But as for his target? It definitely indicates he selected it potentially for that reason.

Let's have a look with Google maps, shall we? Coming from Paris Street, Aurora, where his apartment complex was, we have:

Cinemark Century 16, 2.9 miles away.
Cinema Grill, 2.6 miles away.
AMC Arapahoe Crossing 16, 11.8 miles away.
Aurora Movie Tavern, 10 or so miles away.
Southlands Stadium 16, 15-20 miles away.
Blockbuster Express, 5-7 miles away.
Aces's, just over a mile away. (Undoubtedly the closest, he could probably have walked.)

Those are the first 7 results on Google.

Surprise surprise, he went to the first theater listed on Google for Aurora, Colorado.

And what evidence is there that he didn't know where they all were to begin with since, well, he happens to live there?

You can't prove a negative. Your assertion is that a mentally ill man carefully researched gun policies of movie theatres and through meticulous research he picked one whose business owners decided wanted a "no concealed gun" policy and had signed informing the patrons and employees of their policy. Then, despite wearing better armor and being better-prepared than some swat teams, he was not expecting anyone to have a weapon because nobody ever breaks the rules at movie theatres and also assumed that no other firearm-wielding criminals would be on the premises either.

To that assertion you have no evidence of any of the assumptions that you are making.

Honestly, if you are at a movie theatre and someone is wearing ******** body armour, throws a gas grenade at the crowd, and then fires into the crowd with a 12 gauge shotgun, a semi-automatic rifle, and finally a Glock 22 handgun, how well do you honestly think any random person would be able to defend against themselves with a concealed weapon? Chances are they would either be so inaccurate that they would have more of a chance of shooting an innocent bystander or get killed by Holmes and give him another gun and more bullets to carry out his massacre.

Wait...you're equating mentally ill with stupid? Really?

Seeing how you've used "retard" and "short bus" many times to equate mental illness to stupid, I don't think you're one to talk about this.

Wrong. I equate stupid as short bus or retarded. Not crazy. Crazy doesn't have issues with IQ.

[Omnileech]

Murder at a gun range. If ONLY someone else had a gun there! Maybe it could have been prevented! But those damn liberals keep guns under lockdown!

[Christien Chalfant]

Well if anything, if a shooter knew that a theatre didn't allow weapons, he/she would have a better chance at killing as many people since there probably wouldn't be someone who could shoot him back.
I'd take the movie theatre's weapon policy into account.

[azulmagia]

Omnileech

Murder at a gun range. If ONLY someone else had a gun there! Maybe it could have been prevented! But those damn liberals keep guns under lockdown!

Between this and the accidental shootings at three separate gun shows, you'd think that reality was trying to tell us that the unrestricted proliferation of firearms is a stupid idea.