What's your opinion on the passing of the health care plan?

[dotanuki]

C0NCRETE_ANGEL

As they just announced the house voted on the health care plan and it passed 220- 215... What is your opinion on this?

Wary, but a bit pleased, though it's tough to call since it keeps getting neutered for all the wrong reasons ,and I'm still pissed at the fiscal analysis post 2000-2008.

[BlueCollarJoe]

Vercingetorix VII

BlueCollarJoe

Vercingetorix VII

BlueCollarJoe

Verc, that is the dumbest post you've ever made.

Do expound.

Don't blame the older generation that worked to build this country, the workers of the country, those that paid their money into a fund that was designed to provide for them for their retirement, IF they were lucky enough to make it to collect that money.
they built the roads this country runs on, the cities, factories and such. You want to blame someone? Blame those that live off the government tit, from the welfare mothers to the companies that survive and get grants from the government on a regular basis.
Blame those IDIOTS that bought houses that they could barely pay the interest on but still purchased them on an ARM because the FHA said it was discrimination to deny them those loans so they could 'get nicer houses'.
Until they matured and bankrupt, flooding the market with underpriced, under maintained homes that the ******** even take the appliances and typically the overhead lights, ceiling fans and, yes, the HVAC units from, as well as painting nice little messages on the wall making excuses for their stupidity.
Blame this generation that is coming up that thinks they have a right to something that the seniors pay into for five or more decades JUST so they can go to a doctor, and STILL get stuck paying more money every month, on top of what they've already paid in, because the government turned their retirement plan into a ******** piggy bank because it had a surplus.
All that pissed away money? Blame the politicians that constantly feel the need to buy votes.
Rather than making the hard choices and telling people sorry, you're gonna have to figure out how to do this on your own, they roll over and spend money they don't have.
And no sign of letting up yet.

What I hear is finger pointing and shifting of the blame, and what I say is that I don't ******** care what your excuses are, Joe. You're goddamn right I think I'm entitled to basic healthcare coverage that every other citizen of every other rich nation has, without worrying about being dropped or my insurance refusing to pay for the best treatment. Why do I think I'm entitled?

Because I'm the one stuck with the bill.

You can justify this until kingdom come, but the simple fact is that the older generations aren't paying for their own way, and barring a brief stint under Clinton that the Republicans promptly destroyed, they haven't been for decades.

I'm paying for them.

I'm paying for, once we take into account both inflation and interest, something like 1/3 to 1/4 of each year's budget. And my children are going to be paying it.

I don't give a damn what hard work you've done or wars you've fought in, it doesn't change the fact that you're spending my money more than you're spending yours.

You don't think it's fair that the poor should take money from the rich, as you put it, through progressive taxation? Well I don't think it's ******** fair that I should be saddled with debt because the old ******** before me voted tax-slashing clown after tax-slashing clown into office while rioting at every proposed budget cut to balance spending out.

tl;dr;


I'll stop blaming the older generation when it stops being their fault.

Then you're a ******** idiot. They pay for decades to get into the system. You want it at birth. We haven't operated at a surplus since the idiot FDR was in office.
Clinton didn't have a surplus either. That was fancy number juggling.

[Vercingetorix VII]

BlueCollarJoe

Then you're a ******** idiot. They pay for decades to get into the system. You want it at birth. We haven't operated at a surplus since the idiot FDR was in office.
Clinton didn't have a surplus either. That was fancy number juggling.

I'm the idiot because I want the basic rights that no other rich nation, nor many middling nations in the world find fit to deny it's citizens, and all only because I'm the one who has to pay the enormous spending that the older generations have been chalking up for decades due to their unwillingness to pay taxes where debt can simply be transferred to the youth.

Joe, ******** off.

[BlueCollarJoe]

Vercingetorix VII

BlueCollarJoe

Then you're a ******** idiot. They pay for decades to get into the system. You want it at birth. We haven't operated at a surplus since the idiot FDR was in office.
Clinton didn't have a surplus either. That was fancy number juggling.

I'm the idiot because I want the basic rights that no other rich nation, nor many middling nations in the world find fit to deny it's citizens, and all only because I'm the one who has to pay the enormous spending that the older generations have been chalking up for decades due to their unwillingness to pay taxes where debt can simply be transferred to the youth.

Joe, ******** off.

You sit there and state that the generations that paid for fifty ******** years into the system don't deserve the benefits that they get...but by damn you want the same thing now!! Yeah. That's ******** idiotic.

[Amongst_many]

I'm sorry, but that's how basicly every succesful modern society works.

[Vercingetorix VII]

BlueCollarJoe

Vercingetorix VII

BlueCollarJoe

Then you're a ******** idiot. They pay for decades to get into the system. You want it at birth. We haven't operated at a surplus since the idiot FDR was in office.
Clinton didn't have a surplus either. That was fancy number juggling.

I'm the idiot because I want the basic rights that no other rich nation, nor many middling nations in the world find fit to deny it's citizens, and all only because I'm the one who has to pay the enormous spending that the older generations have been chalking up for decades due to their unwillingness to pay taxes where debt can simply be transferred to the youth.

Joe, ******** off.

You sit there and state that the generations that paid for fifty ******** years into the system don't deserve the benefits that they get...but by damn you want the same thing now!! Yeah. That's ******** idiotic.

Check this out;

I also wants kids growing up now to have access to a better school system than I got. Zomg! It's like not every policy decision has to be ruled by rancourous bitterness and, "Well I didn't get that!" logic, but can be made for the public good!

Or is that just too ******** crazy an idea to work, Joe? I dunno, you tell me.

PS:

I never said I don't want the old getting healthcare, I said I want everyone getting healthcare. I want the old people to shut up like they've paid for everything, because they've been deferring payments to the young for a long a** time.

[Darkphantom]

BlueCollarJoe

You sit there and state that the generations that paid for fifty ******** years into the system don't deserve the benefits that they get...but by damn you want the same thing now!! Yeah. That's ******** idiotic.

They deserve it as much as anyone else. Everyone else pays into the system yet for some reason you think they should be the only benefactors?

Why the hell are you commenting joe I would that thought that given your retorhic you would have been first to ditch such care for the elderly I mean afterall why the ******** dose it matter to you if some old crone dies or not... isn't that your justification for all ******** over anyone and everyone else in your socioty.
They don't benefit you personally therefore you don't want to pay to cover them.

Sounds to me like a large hypocrisy.

[Foxie-Sama]

Vercingetorix VII

Foxie-Sama

Vercingetorix VII

GunsmithKitten

Vercingetorix VII

You can control driving safely, and your failure to do so endangers others. In this way it is exactly the opposite of healthcare.

If there's no way to make health insurance work without discriminating for actual need, and if discriminating for actual need causes manifest injustice, which it clearly does, then the only logical solution is to abandon health insurance and try the solution that has worked for every other first world nation.

OR actually go to an actual free market system instead of an outside industry cartel running the show.

Politically impossible. The Republicans talk s**t like they love free markets, but they're the first to try and use even the hint of a suggestion that spending- not benefits, mind, just wasteful spending- would be cut from Medicaid as a political bludgeon.

Old people are the primary opponents of healthcare reform- along with most other halfway decent ideas in this country- and they're not going to stand for seeing their own benefits diminished.

Of course, these same assholes will continue running up a deficit while saying they're entitled to healthcare because they've been paying into the system. Never mind that the majority of the costs are shifted onto the future generations. It's like your roommate buying s**t with your credit card and telling you they should have first dibs on it.

Anyway. Your solution is impossible to implement, so not such a good solution, even if it would work out (which I don't think it would).

Hold on a minute. I love how you contradicted yourself in your post. You first say that old people are bitching because they paid into the system but are getting their benifits cut, then you use the analogy of your roommate using yor credit care to buy something and they claim dibs on it.

Put yourself in the elderly's shoes. Right now, if you are working, you are currently paying into the social security system, so that when you retire, you will get that back. That is compeletly fair. What isn't fair is that we are paying into the system, and we will most likely NOT recieve soical security when we retire. So we have to still pay into the system AND pay into 401(k)s just so we can have money in the future so we can actually retire. So for us to be able to retire comfortably, we have to pay in twice, once for our taxes that the government is taking out and the money that we are putting into the 401(k).


Now, here is a question for you, WHY is social security bankrupt? Because the government keeps dipping into it. If they would have left that money alone, there quite possibly be plenty of money in the system to sustain itself. Thing about, if you start working when you are 18, and work until you are 65, thats a SHITLOAD of money the government has taken that it has collected interest on, and thats not counting the people that pay into the system that die before they can retire and collect.

The reason Social Security and the government generally is bankrupt is because for decades, Americans have refused to pay a tax level commensurate with their spending. Hence the debt that I am obligated to pay for is exclusively due to the excess spending and stingy funding of the generations now receiving the benefits of medicare and social security.

BlueCollarJoe

Verc, that is the dumbest post you've ever made.

Do expound.

Proof that American's refuse to pay the tax level
Source of misspending social security money

[BlueCollarJoe]

Darkphantom

BlueCollarJoe

You sit there and state that the generations that paid for fifty ******** years into the system don't deserve the benefits that they get...but by damn you want the same thing now!! Yeah. That's ******** idiotic.

They deserve it as much as anyone else. Everyone else pays into the system yet for some reason you think they should be the only benefactors?

Why the hell are you commenting joe I would that thought that given your retorhic you would have been first to ditch such care for the elderly I mean afterall why the ******** dose it matter to you if some old crone dies or not... isn't that your justification for all ******** over anyone and everyone else in your socioty.
They don't benefit you personally therefore you don't want to pay to cover them.

Sounds to me like a large hypocrisy.

See, here's where you show you really haven't a clue on my beliefs. Retired people have earned and paid into their plans for decades.
If everyone wants in on it? Then either a flat 1 or 2% across the board tax hike, with those that are NOT using government insurance exempt from it, and a reasonable deductible added to it as well.
Reasonable doesn't mean $100 per doctors visit, either. Reasonable means based on a median income level and then everyone pays that amount.
Same applies to dental/vision programs, and have a 'net' program.
But make it like car insurance, in that one must have it.
The disabled? Free, if they are disabled to the point they cannot work due to severe mental/physical handicaps.

[Vercingetorix VII]

I support a hike of taxes across the board until the deficit is covered, although I wouldn't make it flat. I do think that everyone should have to pay some amount of income tax, as it promotes investment in both the state and the way it allocates money.

Although as we've discussed, we already have regressive taxes in the form of sales tax.

If we got rid of regressive taxes generally and provided basic social services like healthcare and college, I'd honestly be within the margins of supporting a flat tax. Probably still a bad idea, but I wouldn't care as much.

Where I have a real problem with your rhetoric, Joe, is where it supposes that all the poor are lazy welfare moochers. These have been the exceptions in my experience, not the rule. I've known too many hardworking lower class people who paid their dues and followed the rules that got s**t over by powerful corporate interests, affluent lawyers and judges and bankers, those that themselves break the law routinely, or cover up for their kids doing the same.

We don't have mob rule in this country, we have aristocratic rule. That's the reality. A few people buy their power by throwing bread to the poor that keep voting the corrupt and inept back into office, true, but they're being exploited, not doing the exploiting.

Basically, I want people to b***h as much when one defense contractor robs $10 Bn from the taxpayer as they do when 100,000 bottom feeders mooch $500 off the welfare state. Asking them to b***h 2000% as much would obviously be jumping the gun more than people are ready for.

[BlueCollarJoe]

Vercingetorix VII

I support a hike of taxes across the board until the deficit is covered, although I wouldn't make it flat. I do think that everyone should have to pay some amount of income tax, as it promotes investment in both the state and the way it allocates money.

Although as we've discussed, we already have regressive taxes in the form of sales tax.

If we got rid of regressive taxes generally and provided basic social services like healthcare and college, I'd honestly be within the margins of supporting a flat tax. Probably still a bad idea, but I wouldn't care as much.

Where I have a real problem with your rhetoric, Joe, is where it supposes that all the poor are lazy welfare moochers. These have been the exceptions in my experience, not the rule. I've known too many hardworking lower class people who paid their dues and followed the rules that got s**t over by powerful corporate interests, affluent lawyers and judges and bankers, those that themselves break the law routinely, or cover up for their kids doing the same.

We don't have mob rule in this country, we have aristocratic rule. That's the reality. A few people buy their power by throwing bread to the poor that keep voting the corrupt and inept back into office, true, but they're being exploited, not doing the exploiting.

Basically, I want people to b***h as much when one defense contractor robs $10 Bn from the taxpayer as they do when 100,000 bottom feeders mooch $500 off the welfare state. Asking them to b***h 2000% as much would obviously be jumping the gun more than people are ready for.

I don't think everyone on welfare is a bottom feeder who is content to settle in their little hole, Verc. I think 10/15% of those on welfare are riding a safety net like a hammock. No more.
I've lived in government housing, and a fair number are working to provide for themselves, and I do cheer them on.
I also do not want a falt tax, and never will. It's utterly assinine, because it isn't something that those at the bottom can afford.
But I also feel that we have plenty of tax disparity now, and see no reason to increase that difference.
My attitude, and belief, which has changed over the last few years (yes, I used to want the fair tax, then I crunched the numbers and said no way. It would hurt too many.) is that we should keep the current levels, but from this point on, everyone rows the same.
What I mean is, if I get a 1% tax hike, so too does Bill Gates and Bubba Burger.
If everyone is rowing the same boat, and getting money that they have taken to fund these programs, I believe it would motivate the voters to actually hold the government officials accountable, rather than 'well, I get all my money back at the end of the year, so I really don't care'.
Let us all chip in from now on at the same increase/decrease.
Minor annoyance for the most part, but enough so that everyone would, hopefully, be willing to hold the politicians feet to the fire.

[Undyr Wurld]

The only people pissed are business people. They'd rather let insurance companies control them and discriminate if they wish or decline their medicine for no reason.

[Noogie]

Jayken - the Caidya

BlueCollarJoe

Jayken - the Caidya

I was a might pissed when they didn't address the mandatory clause. I understand that they don't want people who become ill to suddenly just the buy the insurance and expect full coverage, at the same time that's what being a responsible American is all about.

I don't know, the whole issue of heath care insurance is a complicated one.

No federal funds for it, and no damn subsidies hidden either. If they try to put the abortion clause back in, watch it die again.

I completely agree with you on the abortion clause. I'm all for women deciding what they should do with their body, but on the case of abortion it should be fully funded by the individuals involved and not by the overall population.

Why do you want the poor retards to flourish?

Joking aside, and I'd hate to point to this old chestnut, what about rape? What about sex under the influence? "Be more responsible?"

No.

[Ceteris Paribus]

Don't want it, don't need it. It's just more extravagant government spending, and it's only exacerbating the issue. Welfare is sooooo good at giving people service after all, I mean, it only has twice the rate of dropping people from it's service as private healthcare.

Drop the barriers to entry to the market to allow purchasing across state lines, and allow greater access for people with preexisting conditions by partially subsidizing high risk pools, along side expansion health savings accounts. The trick is creating incentive for companies to realize they can turn profits from having everyone insured, not thinking that the government is somehow going to cover all the risk.

[DYN O SAUR x]

Phuket Noodles

Don't want it, don't need it. It's just more extravagant government spending, and it's only exacerbating the issue. Welfare is sooooo good at giving people service after all, I mean, it only has twice the rate of dropping people from it's service as private healthcare.

Drop the barriers to entry to the market to allow purchasing across state lines, and allow greater access for people with preexisting conditions by partially subsidizing high risk pools, along side expansion health savings accounts. The trick is creating incentive for companies to realize they can turn profits from having everyone insured, not thinking that the government is somehow going to cover all the risk.

EXACTLY!