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Shadowy Powerhouse

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Old Blue Collar Joe

Name an industry the government is involved in that thrives.
Agriculture, depending on your definition of "thrive." (For some it's very profitable, and they are very productive, although not in ways that are economically viable in a marketplace setting, not since the '70s.) Particularly, producers of feed grains (corn, soy) are heavily subsidized and raking in the dough hand over fist.

Now, the profits involved are derived from the subsidies themselves rather than from the price paid for the product (corn in particular has in the past become worth less at sale than it costs to grow), but that's another matter.
I found this excellent analysis of the politics of the crisis here.

Adam Kotsko
A party where any self-selecting yahoo can come off the street and replace a powerful incumbent is not a party worthy of the name. In a real political party, these “primary challengers” would not be feared and placated — they’d be derided and expelled. It’s not as though we don’t have models for what that looks like. Remember the primary challenge to Lieberman? Even though the challenger was technically the Democratic candidate, he was effectively a third-party candidate and lost easily to Lieberman. That’s the way you make sure people know primary elections are an empty gesture. The fact that Lieberman was one of the most hated figures among the party’s “base” only reinforced the message.

That’s how a proper ruling party conducts itself. It doesn’t embrace some random candidate endorsed by people on the internet — the party decides who’s in the party, and the base can either accept it or go vote for the other guy. This is incredibly simple and basic. If you want to be a ruling party, you have to go for the self-perpetuating elite model. Otherwise you’re just a pointless protest party.

Even the existence of protest candidates is a betrayal of American values, however. The Founders, in their infinite wisdom, gave us the gift of a political system so convoluted as to evade all popular accountability. Every two years, you can vote only a few of the bastards out of office — and the more powerful the bastards are, the less often the public gets to chime in. One benefit of this system is that nothing like a coherent political agenda or program can be implemented. The only policies that can get passed are those that are already supported by a broad consensus of the American ruling class. Out of respect for local control, the Founders also made room in their system for corrupt local interests to be bought off rather than bowled over in implementing these consensus decisions. This allows for greater buy-in across a wider range of elites and has the further benefit of increasing opacity and thus diminishing the possibility of popular accountability. In short, it’s a really robust system.

....

Deprived of the means of placating the local elites they represent, members of Congress have increasingly been forced to advocate ideas and, even worse, principles. The result has been the absolute deadlock that now threatens the to disrupt the operations of the government and even the state’s special role in propping up business elites via the national debt. Obama has tried to tap into the Zeitgeist by elevating his party’s opportunism to the level of a principle in itself, yet without the means to buy votes by making sure important contributors get no-bid contracts, the whole exercise is hopeless. The whole point of principles is that you don’t compromise them — which is why the Founders created a constitutional system in which compromise was mandatory and principles were decidedly unwelcome.

In short, establishment Republicans must reassert their power by expelling the Tea Party protest candidates. They should consult with their Democratic colleagues on how best to crush populist hopes and inculcate an attitude of resigned hopelessness in their “base.” Ideally, of course, primary elections would be entirely abolished, but failing that, the Democrats have a rich array of techniques for ensuring that they remain the empty gesture they were intended to be. It will take real resolve to overcome the idealists and reclaim the party for corrupt insiders, but at this point, the Republicans owe it to themselves and to the American people to revert to being the kind of opportunistic nihilists the American constitutional system was designed for.


You might think this is Swiftian satire, but only the tone is. Just compare the bolded part to what it says in the Federalist Papers (particularly Federalist Paper #10) and you'll see he's dead right.
Wendigo
Old Blue Collar Joe

Name an industry the government is involved in that thrives.
Agriculture, depending on your definition of "thrive." (For some it's very profitable, and they are very productive, although not in ways that are economically viable in a marketplace setting, not since the '70s.) Particularly, producers of feed grains (corn, soy) are heavily subsidized and raking in the dough hand over fist.

Now, the profits involved are derived from the subsidies themselves rather than from the price paid for the product (corn in particular has in the past become worth less at sale than it costs to grow), but that's another matter.


Not the way I meant it, Wendigo. While there are farmers that make a s**t load being paid to sit on fallow fields, the government itself pisses away a ton of money on it. What was it they were saying, that 9 out of 10 jobs in the EPA are considered non-essential and that over 42 BILLION dollars is pissed away annually, just on that goat ********? 17,000 people who are employed for no real viable reason.
Old Blue Collar Joe
Heimdalr
Old Blue Collar Joe
They have no idea that when the government gets involved, competition dies, because they absolutely smother it. It's why we have police. The government hates competition in stealing.
Why are you using this as an argument against government involvement? We don't want a market for theft.


Name an industry the government is involved in that thrives. There is not one program the government runs efficiently. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the FHA, SSI, Medicaid, Medicare...NONE are run efficiently nor at break even levels.
It's already had estimates that Obamacare is going to cost 10 times more than initially predicted. Which, of course, has been stated since this was even proposed.

The food industry.

Magical Girl

Old Blue Collar Joe
Name an industry the government is involved in that thrives.


The military. Lobbying.

See, government run things could work well, but that's not really in their best interests. Medicare, for instance, works better than letting the hospital chargemaster charge 20x what things cost. Medicare is still more efficient than the free market bullshit because hospitals mark stuff up to obscene costs.

"That's not free market, though," Joe whines. "That's corruption!" Yeah, well, I don't know exactly why people try and separate the two. If you do not lock the ******** down on a free market it will grow corrupt, because corruption is best for business. Best for everyone else? No. But since when has business been in the business about caring about people?
HMS Thunder Child
Old Blue Collar Joe
Name an industry the government is involved in that thrives.


The military. Lobbying.

See, government run things could work well, but that's not really in their best interests. Medicare, for instance, works better than letting the hospital chargemaster charge 20x what things cost. Medicare is still more efficient than the free market bullshit because hospitals mark stuff up to obscene costs.

"That's not free market, though," Joe whines. "That's corruption!" Yeah, well, I don't know exactly why people try and separate the two. If you do not lock the ******** down on a free market it will grow corrupt, because corruption is best for business. Best for everyone else? No. But since when has business been in the business about caring about people?

A public enterprise should be for the benefit of the people. Any profit made by those enterprises should be diverted back to either the people themselves or to the running of the government.
Old Blue Collar Joe
Name an industry the government is involved in that thrives. There is not one program the government runs efficiently. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the FHA, SSI, Medicaid, Medicare...NONE are run efficiently nor at break even levels.


There's a difference between an industry and a program. If you want to talk about industry than the one thing that the government is involved in that thrives as a whole is the scientific research industry. Now I said as a whole because of course there are times when specific research opportunities don't work. That's how the industry works anyway. But as a whole research is one thing the government is involved with that thrives and grows and is what made our country great.

As for specific programs, research programs tend to be very efficient and break even all the damn time.

Shadowy Powerhouse

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Old Blue Collar Joe
Not the way I meant it, Wendigo. While there are farmers that make a s**t load being paid to sit on fallow fields, the government itself pisses away a ton of money on it. What was it they were saying, that 9 out of 10 jobs in the EPA are considered non-essential and that over 42 BILLION dollars is pissed away annually, just on that goat ********? 17,000 people who are employed for no real viable reason.
"Non-essential" doesn't mean "unimportant." It means that if you take that person off the job until an emergency funding bill is passed, things don't fall apart that badly in the interim. Public health and safety stays on, permit processing goes home.
Wendigo
Old Blue Collar Joe
Not the way I meant it, Wendigo. While there are farmers that make a s**t load being paid to sit on fallow fields, the government itself pisses away a ton of money on it. What was it they were saying, that 9 out of 10 jobs in the EPA are considered non-essential and that over 42 BILLION dollars is pissed away annually, just on that goat ********? 17,000 people who are employed for no real viable reason.
"Non-essential" doesn't mean "unimportant." It means that if you take that person off the job until an emergency funding bill is passed, things don't fall apart that badly in the interim. Public health and safety stays on, permit processing goes home.


They have a lot of both non-essential and unimportant positions, a redundancy on top of a redundancy, and a waste of money.

Shadowy Powerhouse

9,125 Points
  • Invisibility 100
  • Money Never Sleeps 200
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Old Blue Collar Joe
Wendigo
Old Blue Collar Joe
Not the way I meant it, Wendigo. While there are farmers that make a s**t load being paid to sit on fallow fields, the government itself pisses away a ton of money on it. What was it they were saying, that 9 out of 10 jobs in the EPA are considered non-essential and that over 42 BILLION dollars is pissed away annually, just on that goat ********? 17,000 people who are employed for no real viable reason.
"Non-essential" doesn't mean "unimportant." It means that if you take that person off the job until an emergency funding bill is passed, things don't fall apart that badly in the interim. Public health and safety stays on, permit processing goes home.


They have a lot of both non-essential and unimportant positions, a redundancy on top of a redundancy, and a waste of money.
They've also got positions that are there to keep people from dumping petroleum products into the Cuyahoga river until it is a fire hazard. Or burying 21,000 tons of toxins under 36 square blocks of New York city.

Both of which incidents occurred, we shall recall, before Richard Nixon created the EPA.
Old Blue Collar Joe
Wendigo
Old Blue Collar Joe
Not the way I meant it, Wendigo. While there are farmers that make a s**t load being paid to sit on fallow fields, the government itself pisses away a ton of money on it. What was it they were saying, that 9 out of 10 jobs in the EPA are considered non-essential and that over 42 BILLION dollars is pissed away annually, just on that goat ********? 17,000 people who are employed for no real viable reason.
"Non-essential" doesn't mean "unimportant." It means that if you take that person off the job until an emergency funding bill is passed, things don't fall apart that badly in the interim. Public health and safety stays on, permit processing goes home.


They have a lot of both non-essential and unimportant positions, a redundancy on top of a redundancy, and a waste of money.

How about the 400 000 furloughed Defense employees? Or the 88000 Treasury Employees?
Considering how many people they furloughed I really couldn't care less about the 15 000 EPA employees (out of 16 000) who YOU think are useless. It's like you're complaining about the government Ant $1, inconsequential.
HMS Thunder Child
Old Blue Collar Joe
Name an industry the government is involved in that thrives.


The military.


Ah yes, the military! Let's take a look how much dollar to dollar return our tax money gets us...

[********]

It's like you've never even heard of how notoriously shitty our no bid contract fetish is for the taxpayer.

Magical Girl

Project 429
HMS Thunder Child
Old Blue Collar Joe
Name an industry the government is involved in that thrives.


The military.


Ah yes, the military! Let's take a look how much dollar to dollar return our tax money gets us...

[********]

It's like you've never even heard of how notoriously shitty our no bid contract fetish is for the taxpayer.
[Skeptical]

Considering the Congress-people working with the contractors are making off like god-kings, I'd say it's working just fine and as intended.

That we're getting ripped off isn't an indictment on its efficacy.
HMS Thunder Child
Project 429
HMS Thunder Child
Old Blue Collar Joe
Name an industry the government is involved in that thrives.


The military.


Ah yes, the military! Let's take a look how much dollar to dollar return our tax money gets us...

[********]

It's like you've never even heard of how notoriously shitty our no bid contract fetish is for the taxpayer.
[Skeptical]

Considering the Congress-people working with the contractors are making off like god-kings, I'd say it's working just fine and as intended.

That we're getting ripped off isn't an indictment on its efficacy.


No it's not. The inefficiency is an indictment on its efficacy.
On the bright side of things (at least in terms of the government shutdown) we're now kinda waiting on Boehner to call to vote a Continuing Resolution since apparently 17 Republicans are willing to pass one.

The magic number in the House by the way is 217...
If all 200 Democrats vote for a Continuing Resolution and 17 Republicans vote in favour as well the government shall resume.

Tick Tock Tick Tock

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