Rant on The Goods and Evils of Libertarianism

[LiberAth409]

So, just wanted to let off some steam about my own struggle in finding a good US political party and deciding my own views. Please let me know what you think, and if you've got an opinion, friend, voice it to me. Multiple views can only help me.

I was raised to have very Conservative Republican views. That got old fast, as I looked around and was disgusted by SO MUCH idiocy, racism, hypocrisy, etc. from the party. Their views on many social issues are so radically opposite mine. I started leaning towards Liberal Democrat views, but quickly lost interest as I saw so many in that party suggesting solutions to problems basically being just spending huge amounts of money we don't even have, growing the national debt to huge sums. Not to mention what I think of a lot of their politicians, ideas about personal rights, etc.

So, reading up on the Internet led me to Libertarianism, and for quite a while, I was IN LOVE with it. It seemed, and to a huge degree still seems, in a way to be the best way to go. In a lot of ways, they're for what the Dems and Reps SAY they're for, but aren't: FREEDOM. True personal freedom, in everything. Dems generally support things like freedom of gays to marry, but selectively reject other freedoms, like 2nd Amendment owning a gun, or like with the current NSA scandal many are apathetic about government privacy invasion. Republicans have the same thing, just reversed. It's all so SICKENING. Nobody really wants freedom, just their idea of an ideal world. Libertarians, however, are about the freedom to do basically whatever floats your boat, and I REALLY LIKE THAT. Seems to me like what those founding fathers had in mind. I absolutely HATE the feeling of government regulation on my life. Maybe that's just because I'm young and rebellious, but... still.

But now I find so many things wrong with a Libertarian mindset, and their platform. While at first I only saw the perfect mix of socially Liberal views and economically Conservative ones, now I see other things... One being the average Libertarian's worshiping the free market, capitalism, and companies like they can do no wrong, and need no regulation. Another rather prominent and obvious flaw for me is many Libertarians' complete disregard for the environment! We actually do need to use some minor government regulation to steer us towards renewable, sustainable, clean energy and reduce habitat destruction, I think. xp

So, before I classified myself as Libertarian, but now I question... everything.

Well, that's my story. Would love to see some agreement, disagreement... whatever. Just some commentary, or whatever, as long as we're all respectful. I'll check for replies in the morning. Goodnight all.

[God Emperor Baldur]

You learned that the world isn't black and white.

[Je Nique vos Merdiers]

Ready for ROUND TWO?

[Wendigo]

Hypothetically, there are two strands of libertarianism, each of which seeks the ultimate possible amount of individual freedom in one of two different spheres. Your civil libertarians, who as you said, seek to safeguard personal freedom wherever possible. And your fiscal libertarians, who want the same thing, but for dollars instead of people. (Neglecting the profound negative consequences already experienced in the United States from laissez-faire capitalism being implemented.)

I'll give you two guesses which of those two strains of libertarianism is strongest in the Libertarian Party, and which one gets neglected in favor of crossover voting for Romney and Ryan.

[Michael Noire]

You should join my "Leave Me The ******** Alone" Party.

The LMTFA party strongly advocates individual freedom, privacy, bodily integrity, body ownership and the right to do with your body as you wish. We emphasize personal property, promote true ownership of land, personal responsibility, and environmental awareness. We promote small business models and the family, but oppose multigenerational accumulation of wealth in the form of Soulless Corporations and unchecked Aristocracies. We oppose monopolies and the monopolization of force. We believe in worshiping whomever, whatever, and wherever you will including nothing at all. We believe in product/natural resource (tangible assets) sided investing and support the concept of Jubilee and oppose the concept of Usury. We believe a person's sex life is their own and it is no one's right to interfere with who, what sex, or how many people you are having sex with. We promote all technological developments that do not exist in their base purpose as means for infringing on the rights of liberty, privacy, bodily integrity, or property. We believe the purpose of government is to provide sufficient firepower deterrent to a foreign invasion. We believe meaningless slaughter is morally wrong and a violation of the right to life. We believe prison camps are a violation of the right to liberty. We believe in fighting to preserve the fundamental rights to life and liberty.

We believe our Party needs a better name... confused

[Kingdom of His Cause]

Je Nique vos Merdiers

Ready for ROUND TWO?

"10 or So . . ." He's not even sure how many questions? And you or he expect(s) me to take you or him seriously?

[Kingdom of His Cause]

Michael Noire

You should join my "Leave Me The ******** Alone" Party.

The LMTFA party strongly advocates individual freedom, privacy, bodily integrity, body ownership and the right to do with your body as you wish. We emphasize personal property, promote true ownership of land, personal responsibility, and environmental awareness. We promote small business models and the family, but oppose multigenerational accumulation of wealth in the form of Soulless Corporations and unchecked Aristocracies. We oppose monopolies and the monopolization of force. We believe in worshiping whomever, whatever, and wherever you will including nothing at all. We believe in product/natural resource (tangible assets) sided investing and support the concept of Jubilee and oppose the concept of Usury. We believe a person's sex life is their own and it is no one's right to interfere with who, what sex, or how many people you are having sex with. We promote all technological developments that do not exist in their base purpose as means for infringing on the rights of liberty, privacy, bodily integrity, or property. We believe the purpose of government is to provide sufficient firepower deterrent to a foreign invasion. We believe meaningless slaughter is morally wrong and a violation of the right to life. We believe prison camps are a violation of the right to liberty. We believe in fighting to preserve the fundamental rights to life and liberty.

We believe our Party needs a better name... confused

Minarchism? neutral I say this, as you saying "monopolization of force," implies that you are referring to the government, as this is what a lot of anarcho-capitalists, -communists, and -syndicalists use to refer to it, but you still support the existence of government. So you must believe that government should have as little overall power as possible, provided it meets the requirements you have listed.

[LiberAth409]

Michael Noire

You should join my "Leave Me The ******** Alone" Party.

The LMTFA party strongly advocates individual freedom, privacy, bodily integrity, body ownership and the right to do with your body as you wish. We emphasize personal property, promote true ownership of land, personal responsibility, and environmental awareness. We promote small business models and the family, but oppose multigenerational accumulation of wealth in the form of Soulless Corporations and unchecked Aristocracies. We oppose monopolies and the monopolization of force. We believe in worshiping whomever, whatever, and wherever you will including nothing at all. We believe in product/natural resource (tangible assets) sided investing and support the concept of Jubilee and oppose the concept of Usury. We believe a person's sex life is their own and it is no one's right to interfere with who, what sex, or how many people you are having sex with. We promote all technological developments that do not exist in their base purpose as means for infringing on the rights of liberty, privacy, bodily integrity, or property. We believe the purpose of government is to provide sufficient firepower deterrent to a foreign invasion. We believe meaningless slaughter is morally wrong and a violation of the right to life. We believe prison camps are a violation of the right to liberty. We believe in fighting to preserve the fundamental rights to life and liberty.

We believe our Party needs a better name... confused

This is good! I like this a lot! biggrin

I personally want a teeny bit more from government, like police and fire departments, and something to regulate businesses, and something to protect natural resources. But otherwise I almost entirely support this party. smile

[LiberAth409]

Je Nique vos Merdiers

Ready for ROUND TWO?

Ok, so I do indeed agree with quite a few of these points. Mainly the ones about debt, and that capitalism can indeed create dangerous ultra-powerful corporations.

I guess this may be foolish of me, but I'm not entirely convinced yet that capitalism will be our demise. It unfortunately does some crappy things to some people, but... I don't know. I'll be the first to admit that I need to do MUCH more reading up on economic systems, and the ways in which capitalism is flawed exactly, and just economics in general, and I'm really quite a newbie to all of this anyway, but... Well, anyway.

Thanks for that link. I'll bookmark it and keep checking it later after I'm more educated.

[heer023343]

Being a Libertarian is in my opinion a real stupid idea. The mainstream if the Libertarian movement have Facebook and twitter then expect privacy from the government. If you really look at it, you really set yourself up to be looked at because the government doesn't need a warrant to look at you Facebook page since it's public. The other part of the Libertarian movement is like Wendigo said they are a bunch of money hungry people. The simple truth of the matter is the days of small government that Libertarians preach for have come and gone since the U.S. Civil War.

[LiberAth409]

heer023343

Being a Libertarian is in my opinion a real stupid idea. The mainstream if the Libertarian movement have Facebook and twitter then expect privacy from the government. If you really look at it, you really set yourself up to be looked at because the government doesn't need a warrant to look at you Facebook page since it's public. The other part of the Libertarian movement is like Wendigo said they are a bunch of money hungry people. The simple truth of the matter is the days of small government that Libertarians preach for have come and gone since the U.S. Civil War.

Hmm. Okay. Thanks for the comment, heer.

I do have one opinion I'd like to voice to counter that one thing you said about Facebook and privacy.

I think there is a HUGE difference between expecting privacy on your Facebook posts (which we have been told for years are not really private because you post them up for everyone to see), and expecting privacy in our phone calls, emails, texts, etc.

And, also, I don't see the villainy in wanting freedom to have a shitload of money, honestly. xd

[heer023343]

DashingRogue45

heer023343

Being a Libertarian is in my opinion a real stupid idea. The mainstream if the Libertarian movement have Facebook and twitter then expect privacy from the government. If you really look at it, you really set yourself up to be looked at because the government doesn't need a warrant to look at you Facebook page since it's public. The other part of the Libertarian movement is like Wendigo said they are a bunch of money hungry people. The simple truth of the matter is the days of small government that Libertarians preach for have come and gone since the U.S. Civil War.

Hmm. Okay. Thanks for the comment, heer.

I do have one opinion I'd like to voice to counter that one thing you said about Facebook and privacy.

I think there is a HUGE difference between expecting privacy on your Facebook posts (which we have been told for years are not really private because you post them up for everyone to see), and expecting privacy in our phone calls, emails, texts, etc.

And, also, I don't see the villainy in wanting freedom to have a shitload of money, honestly. xd

The truth of the matter with the internet is that it is the new wild west. There are no real laws to govern by when it comes to it. People want all theses freedoms of the Constitution but don't want laws that make sure the freedoms of the Constitution are not violated. It's give and take.

[LiberAth409]

heer023343

DashingRogue45

heer023343

Being a Libertarian is in my opinion a real stupid idea. The mainstream if the Libertarian movement have Facebook and twitter then expect privacy from the government. If you really look at it, you really set yourself up to be looked at because the government doesn't need a warrant to look at you Facebook page since it's public. The other part of the Libertarian movement is like Wendigo said they are a bunch of money hungry people. The simple truth of the matter is the days of small government that Libertarians preach for have come and gone since the U.S. Civil War.

Hmm. Okay. Thanks for the comment, heer.

I do have one opinion I'd like to voice to counter that one thing you said about Facebook and privacy.

I think there is a HUGE difference between expecting privacy on your Facebook posts (which we have been told for years are not really private because you post them up for everyone to see), and expecting privacy in our phone calls, emails, texts, etc.

And, also, I don't see the villainy in wanting freedom to have a shitload of money, honestly. xd

The truth of the matter with the internet is that it is the new wild west. There are no real laws to govern by when it comes to it. People want all theses freedoms of the Constitution but don't want laws that make sure the freedoms of the Constitution are not violated. It's give and take.

I think I mostly see what you're saying. I guess although the Internet is so new, and there are few laws on it, I would say emails SHOULD fall into the 4th Amendment's "persons, houses, papers, and effects", and so must be free from "unreasonable searches and seizures", and I'd say that recording every single email is an unreasonable amount of searching. I mean, yeah, I know that the government doesn't see it that way...

I think that's the Libertarian mindset, though. We want everything in the Constitution. Just my opinion.

[heer023343]

DashingRogue45

heer023343

DashingRogue45

heer023343

Being a Libertarian is in my opinion a real stupid idea. The mainstream if the Libertarian movement have Facebook and twitter then expect privacy from the government. If you really look at it, you really set yourself up to be looked at because the government doesn't need a warrant to look at you Facebook page since it's public. The other part of the Libertarian movement is like Wendigo said they are a bunch of money hungry people. The simple truth of the matter is the days of small government that Libertarians preach for have come and gone since the U.S. Civil War.

Hmm. Okay. Thanks for the comment, heer.

I do have one opinion I'd like to voice to counter that one thing you said about Facebook and privacy.

I think there is a HUGE difference between expecting privacy on your Facebook posts (which we have been told for years are not really private because you post them up for everyone to see), and expecting privacy in our phone calls, emails, texts, etc.

And, also, I don't see the villainy in wanting freedom to have a shitload of money, honestly. xd

The truth of the matter with the internet is that it is the new wild west. There are no real laws to govern by when it comes to it. People want all theses freedoms of the Constitution but don't want laws that make sure the freedoms of the Constitution are not violated. It's give and take.

I think I mostly see what you're saying. I guess although the Internet is so new, and there are few laws on it, I would say emails SHOULD fall into the 4th Amendment's "persons, houses, papers, and effects", and so must be free from "unreasonable searches and seizures", and I'd say that recording every single email is an unreasonable amount of searching. I mean, yeah, I know that the government doesn't see it that way...

I think that's the Libertarian mindset, though. We want everything in the Constitution. Just my opinion.

I also see where you coming from. The only reason why I came to conclusion I came to is because of the craziness that happen when the Patriot Act was first made law. People were reporting anyone and everyone they thought was up to no good so I see this whole collecting things as a way to prevent that. I am far from saying that it's the right way of doing things, but it is a start. This is why I believe Libertarians are just a party that will go away like the Wigs did. Hopefully the Republicans can kick the one in their party out by then. So I'm best opinion for you decision is do what I do and be an independent. Never claim a party and go for who you feel is the best person, be it man or woman, for the job.

[Wendigo]

DashingRogue45

And, also, I don't see the villainy in wanting freedom to have a shitload of money, honestly. xd

Depends what we're talking about. Some people arrive at the end goal of "shitload of money" through unethical means. Insider trading and speculation, for example, which are destabilizing. Cutting corners in the safety of your product, such as, say, using toxic additives or marketing pharmaceuticals you know to be dangerous. Polluting the environment - burying or dumping toxic petrochemical waste, say, or allowing natural gas to leech into groundwater as a result of "fracking." * "Offshoring" to places that don't believe in regulating the labor environment. All manner of things.