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is survivalist really the appropriate term by now?
They also sometimes call themselves "preppers." I think that separatists might be a better word, as the ideology is clearly seditious in nature. The ones who openly advocate revolution are in the minority, though; most use coded language to suggest that they're acting only in self defense, although clearly arming for what they believe will be a revolt to topple the current government.

But most folks just aren't as honest stating their feelings as Mcveigh was. So it's a hopeless tangle.
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Wendigo
ripsaw service pack 1
is survivalist really the appropriate term by now?
They also sometimes call themselves "preppers." I think that separatists might be a better word, as the ideology is clearly seditious in nature. The ones who openly advocate revolution are in the minority, though; most use coded language to suggest that they're acting only in self defense, although clearly arming for what they believe will be a revolt to topple the current government.

But most folks just aren't as honest stating their feelings as Mcveigh was. So it's a hopeless tangle.

I assume he was making an amusing joke about the man's death.
Wendigo
ripsaw service pack 1
is survivalist really the appropriate term by now?
They also sometimes call themselves "preppers." I think that separatists might be a better word, as the ideology is clearly seditious in nature. The ones who openly advocate revolution are in the minority, though; most use coded language to suggest that they're acting only in self defense, although clearly arming for what they believe will be a revolt to topple the current government.

But most folks just aren't as honest stating their feelings as Mcveigh was. So it's a hopeless tangle.


Nice way to shove everyone in a shoe box. Those who are survivalists are typically prone to believing in government revolt.
Preppers are a varied source, believing and preparing for everything from the Biblical Armageddon, which is pretty much like facing a hurricane with an umbrella, to solar flares causing a worldwide EMP, knocking power out and throwing us back to the stone ages, pandemics, volcanic eruptions....the list goes on.
The vast majority are safe if somewhat quirky individuals, unlike this guy who had a list of problems it seems.
Wendigo
So. Alabama. Out in the sticks. A conflict brewed between the driver of a school bus (Charles Poland, 66) and the retired owner of a piece of property he stopped near every day (Jimmy Lee Dykes, 65). Jimmy Lee apparently resented that the bus came near his property to turn around.

Things came to a head earlier in the week, as Mr. Dykes boarded the bus, demanding that a child or children be surrendered into his custody. Mr. Poland, a kind and gentle man, stood in his way while the kids ran out the emergency door in the back. For his trouble, he was killed, and Dykes retreated to an underground bunker he'd built on his property.

Here are some reports of the ongoing hostage crisis:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/us/alabama-child-hostage/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02/01/alabama-standoff-enters-third-day-as-official-says-child-held-hostage-in-bunker/
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/30/16775172-hostage-suspect-was-loner-missed-court-appearance
http://abcnews.go.com/US/alabama-hostage-standoff-alleged-kidnapper-stayed-bunker-days/story?id=18365069
http://abcnews.go.com/US/alabama-hostage-standoff-jimmy-lee-dykes-court-date/story?id=18374414

It seems that the underlying motivation for all this trauma is that Dykes, a Vietnam veteran, believes that the government everybody is out to get him. Hence the bunker, which he built himself, and has stocked with provisions. Reports say that Dykes has been known to live in that bunker all by himself for over a week.

So, the crux of the issue. How do we anticipate and prevent further acts of violence by paranoids like Dykes? Would more robust V.A. care have stemmed the tide of his mania? Would more neighborhood barbecues have assuaged his violent temper? I leave this question open, I suggest no particular answer, I leave that to you folks.

Interesting. We'll see how this plays out. The only troublesome factor seems to be the innocent kid.



Anticipate and prevent acts of violence? You can't do that. It's not possible. People are going to get violent. You just have to be able to stop them if you don't like it.
Wendigo
Further details, such as there are, about Dykes:

Quote:
"As far as we know there is no relation at all (between Dykes and the hostage). He just wanted a child for a hostage situation," said Michael Senn, a pastor who helped comfort traumatized children after the attack.

Sheriff's deputies had arrested Dykes on Dec. 22 and charged him with menacing for a Dec. 10 complaint, court records show. He spent four days in jail before posting the $500 bail.

...

Neighbors said Dykes had lived for about a year at the residence in Midland City, population 2,300. Before that he spent time in Texas and in Panama City, Fla., The Dothan Eagle reported.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement records show he was arrested in Panama City in February 1995 and charged with improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms, a misdemeanor. The charge was dismissed four months later.

...

Neighbor Mike Smith said Dykes once threatened to shoot his children when the family's dogs entered his property.

Neighbor Ronda Wilbur said Dykes was known to go out in the middle of the night to shoot birds and rabbits. She said Dykes had cut down nearly all the trees on his lot, erected a wire fence and "would go berserk" if a dog strayed onto his land.

She said her dog died of injuries after Dykes beat it with a lead pipe.

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/360493/28/Child-believed-unharmed-as-Ala-hostage-ordeal-drags-on


The complaint for "menacing" relates to his displaying his firearm and popping off "warning shots" at a neighbor, her son and her grandson as they were passing by in their vehicle. That's the one for which he recently missed his court date. Haven't seen details on the Panama City complaint. Apparently a long history of threatening folks.

To be fair to this ex-soldier, taxpayer, and member of our fine Gunshine State community, the Florida state government really is out to get you.
Wendigo
ripsaw service pack 1
is survivalist really the appropriate term by now?
They also sometimes call themselves "preppers." I think that separatists might be a better word, as the ideology is clearly seditious in nature. The ones who openly advocate revolution are in the minority, though; most use coded language to suggest that they're acting only in self defense, although clearly arming for what they believe will be a revolt to topple the current government.

But most folks just aren't as honest stating their feelings as Mcveigh was. So it's a hopeless tangle.

Hi, I'm clearly seditious in nature, as are my principles and ideologies. Problem?
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deadroosters

To be fair to this ex-soldier, taxpayer, and member of our fine Gunshine State community, the Florida state government really is out to get you.
Well, Alabama wasn't out to get him, near as is apparent, until he killed a man and imprisoned a child in a hole in his yard at gunpoint for several days.

Which is about when most governments get interested in what the hell you're up to.

Old Blue Collar Joe

Nice way to shove everyone in a shoe box. Those who are survivalists are typically prone to believing in government revolt.
Yes, that would be the shoebox. I don't have to reach to get 'em in there, either, that's their front page banner headline.

Yeah, there are different strains of the stuff, I won't contradict you there. There are folks who legitimately believe that there will be a major catastrophic event, for which they will require all these MREs cached around their vicinity. And in its most harmless possible form, that's as far as it goes, and they're ready next time a big blizzard blows through, if they were smart about it.

The folks who have the stockpile of guns and ammo along with it, and the bomb plans, and the chemical warfare instructions, and the slew of other material put out by the Ragnar Bensons and the Kurt Saxons and the Timothy W. Tobiasons of the world, they're a Jimmy Dykes, Anders Breivik, or Timothy Mcveigh waiting to happen, and many of them do. When the rest of us are lucky, they 'happen' by tipping somebody off and getting arrested, with the plan to shoot some policemen or plant bombs in public spaces only partially finished. When the rest of us are unlucky, there's a shootout at the front door when the eviction notice comes, or there's an ammonium nitrate bomb waiting repeatedly at the IRS building in Austin over the years, or a school bus driver gets murdered by an armed lunatic.
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Disa Uniflora

I assume he was making an amusing joke about the man's death.
Oh, I suppose that's possible.

Well, I guess Dykes didn't practice what he preached very well.
Wendigo
deadroosters

To be fair to this ex-soldier, taxpayer, and member of our fine Gunshine State community, the Florida state government really is out to get you.
Well, Alabama wasn't out to get him, near as is apparent, until he killed a man and imprisoned a child in a hole in his yard at gunpoint for several days.

Which is about when most governments get interested in what the hell you're up to.

The Feds know everything that goes on near any internet- or cellular-enabled device. They likely chose not to react here.

Old Blue Collar Joe

Nice way to shove everyone in a shoe box. Those who are survivalists are typically prone to believing in government revolt.
Yes, that would be the shoebox. I don't have to reach to get 'em in there, either, that's their front page banner headline.

Yeah, there are different strains of the stuff, I won't contradict you there. There are folks who legitimately believe that there will be a major catastrophic event, for which they will require all these MREs cached around their vicinity. And in its most harmless possible form, that's as far as it goes, and they're ready next time a big blizzard blows through, if they were smart about it.

The folks who have the stockpile of guns and ammo along with it, and the bomb plans, and the chemical warfare instructions, and the slew of other material put out by the Ragnar Bensons and the Kurt Saxons and the Timothy W. Tobiasons of the world, they're a Jimmy Dykes, Anders Breivik, or Timothy Mcveigh waiting to happen, and many of them do. When the rest of us are lucky, they 'happen' by tipping somebody off and getting arrested, with the plan to shoot some policemen or plant bombs in public spaces only partially finished. When the rest of us are unlucky, there's a shootout at the front door when the eviction notice comes, or there's an ammonium nitrate bomb waiting repeatedly at the IRS building in Austin over the years, or a school bus driver gets murdered by an armed lunatic.
Why do you believe that (nearly) everyone who believes that the government should be removed from power is ALSO violently insane and prone to mass murder of random civilians? That isn't a reasonable idea at all. In fact, it sounds like the response of someone who, for whatever reason, refuses to consider the idea of either civil or violent revolution.

You ARE shoving people in a shoebox and you may go and ******** yourself for it.
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deadroosters
Wendigo
deadroosters

To be fair to this ex-soldier, taxpayer, and member of our fine Gunshine State community, the Florida state government really is out to get you.
Well, Alabama wasn't out to get him, near as is apparent, until he killed a man and imprisoned a child in a hole in his yard at gunpoint for several days.

Which is about when most governments get interested in what the hell you're up to.

The Feds know everything that goes on near any internet- or cellular-enabled device. They likely chose not to react here.
No, they don't. You're talking about monitoring all the traffic on 327 million wireless devices. Even if you don't have to worry about breaking encryption, getting the man hours together to monitor that much information in real time would be a fearsome task. The government you describe would have to be devoted to almost nothing else, and we know that ours is not.


Quote:
Why do you believe that (nearly) everyone who believes that the government should be removed from power is ALSO violently insane and prone to mass murder of random civilians? That isn't a reasonable idea at all. In fact, it sounds like the response of someone who, for whatever reason, refuses to consider the idea of either civil or violent revolution.
No such thing as civil revolution.

Here's the thing about our friend, violent revolution. He kills a whole lot of people. More, really, after victory than before. Take it as a given that the bad guys are so irredeemably bad that they need to be killed. Okay. Now we've got them at our mercy, back to the wall, hands tied. What do you do? Orderly trials where the evidence against them is laid out and a fitting and proportional punishment handed down, or shoot them in the head?
the united states presently documents ptsd. of course, back in the sixties, you were either just a p***y or it was combat stress.

sometimes, the only thing you can do is punish people. preventative measures aren't always the answer.
deadroosters
Wendigo
ripsaw service pack 1
is survivalist really the appropriate term by now?
They also sometimes call themselves "preppers." I think that separatists might be a better word, as the ideology is clearly seditious in nature. The ones who openly advocate revolution are in the minority, though; most use coded language to suggest that they're acting only in self defense, although clearly arming for what they believe will be a revolt to topple the current government.

But most folks just aren't as honest stating their feelings as Mcveigh was. So it's a hopeless tangle.

Hi, I'm clearly seditious in nature, as are my principles and ideologies. Problem?

and same would apply to me. Problem?
logan the god of candy
the united states presently documents ptsd. of course, back in the sixties, you were either just a p***y or it was combat stress.

sometimes, the only thing you can do is punish people. preventative measures aren't always the answer.

Sometimes even that won't do s**t.
Wendigo
deadroosters
Wendigo
deadroosters

To be fair to this ex-soldier, taxpayer, and member of our fine Gunshine State community, the Florida state government really is out to get you.
Well, Alabama wasn't out to get him, near as is apparent, until he killed a man and imprisoned a child in a hole in his yard at gunpoint for several days.

Which is about when most governments get interested in what the hell you're up to.

The Feds know everything that goes on near any internet- or cellular-enabled device. They likely chose not to react here.
No, they don't. You're talking about monitoring all the traffic on 327 million wireless devices. Even if you don't have to worry about breaking encryption, getting the man hours together to monitor that much information in real time would be a fearsome task. The government you describe would have to be devoted to almost nothing else, and we know that ours is not.

There's a giant NSA data center in Utah for just that purpose. Leave it to America to do the impossible.


Quote:
Quote:
Why do you believe that (nearly) everyone who believes that the government should be removed from power is ALSO violently insane and prone to mass murder of random civilians? That isn't a reasonable idea at all. In fact, it sounds like the response of someone who, for whatever reason, refuses to consider the idea of either civil or violent revolution.
No such thing as civil revolution.

Here's the thing about our friend, violent revolution. He kills a whole lot of people. More, really, after victory than before. Take it as a given that the bad guys are so irredeemably bad that they need to be killed. Okay. Now we've got them at our mercy, back to the wall, hands tied. What do you do? Orderly trials where the evidence against them is laid out and a fitting and proportional punishment handed down, or shoot them in the head?

If we're taking at a given that these guys don't deserve to live, why do you want to drag them through some torturous trial for the benefit of the audience? It's simpler and more honorable to shoot them. But, look them in the eyes.
deadroosters
Wendigo
deadroosters
Wendigo
deadroosters

To be fair to this ex-soldier, taxpayer, and member of our fine Gunshine State community, the Florida state government really is out to get you.
Well, Alabama wasn't out to get him, near as is apparent, until he killed a man and imprisoned a child in a hole in his yard at gunpoint for several days.

Which is about when most governments get interested in what the hell you're up to.

The Feds know everything that goes on near any internet- or cellular-enabled device. They likely chose not to react here.
No, they don't. You're talking about monitoring all the traffic on 327 million wireless devices. Even if you don't have to worry about breaking encryption, getting the man hours together to monitor that much information in real time would be a fearsome task. The government you describe would have to be devoted to almost nothing else, and we know that ours is not.

There's a giant NSA data center in Utah for just that purpose. Leave it to America to do the impossible.

indeed phones are inherently not secure at all, at-least all except svoip enabled phones. and of these only a subset are secure, you can't actually trust your ISP either... ontop of that yes these also exist somewhere in europe, probably several places in asia. maybe africa, isn't so bad.
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Why do you believe that (nearly) everyone who believes that the government should be removed from power is ALSO violently insane and prone to mass murder of random civilians? That isn't a reasonable idea at all. In fact, it sounds like the response of someone who, for whatever reason, refuses to consider the idea of either civil or violent revolution.
No such thing as civil revolution.

Here's the thing about our friend, violent revolution. He kills a whole lot of people. More, really, after victory than before. Take it as a given that the bad guys are so irredeemably bad that they need to be killed. Okay. Now we've got them at our mercy, back to the wall, hands tied. What do you do? Orderly trials where the evidence against them is laid out and a fitting and proportional punishment handed down, or shoot them in the head?

If we're taking at a given that these guys don't deserve to live, why do you want to drag them through some torturous trial for the benefit of the audience? It's simpler and more honorable to shoot them. But, look them in the eyes.

— I’d have to agree, also no matter how fair you make such a trial you are charging them of a crime that wasn't even criminal at the time, and using their own words and actions against them.
In otherwords I have to agree it's actually quite presumptuos, to think that's an improvement and as for wanting to have genuinely fair trials we would not recognize them as fair trials untill we recognize the new government as legitimate generally speaking. and the idea that that would make their judicial system automatically legitimate is like presuming that a legal system which is fair presumes that government is fair.
In short, Just a really long winded way of saying if the plan is simply to condemn it is better to show yourself and condemn, than to use law as an instrument of agony.


Addendum:not saying I disagree with human right's watch, except in the assumption that mock trials would make it any more fair or less arbitrary, let alone with conducting executions, but actually I don't agree with conducting any executions yet it's fine to conduct them in texas because you have a court, which is a position I don't agree with/
by the way, I remember their was a reliable source specifically a scholar [of jurisprudence] who stated that actually crimes punishable by execution where less likely to be conducted fairly and where generally less fair.

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