Obama hides Fast and Furious behind Executive Privilage

[Ammo Amy]

Kazuma

Would you be so kind to actually link the bill to either Wide Receiver, Fast and Furious, or gun walking if you are going to make the claim. This is the third time you have been asked and you still don't seem to be able to grasp that.

Oh, wait. You were expecting someone to actually state they are walking guns in any these bills?

[Kazuma]

Ammo Amy

Kazuma

Would you be so kind to actually link the bill to either Wide Receiver, Fast and Furious, or gun walking if you are going to make the claim. This is the third time you have been asked and you still don't seem to be able to grasp that.

Oh, wait. You were expecting someone to actually state they are walking guns in any these bills?

No. I am expecting you to prove your statement that people who voted for this bill thought letting guns walk was a good idea. AnarchoPhiliac wrote:

Quote:

My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"

To which you replied:

Quote:

Issa voted "Yes" to this. I guess he thought it was a good idea.

And you keep humping that bill like it is some sort of supporting evidence. What I expect is, if you are going to make a claim, to support it with evidence.

[The Infamous Unami]

The longer Obama remains president, the better Jon Stewart gets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgil5gKBwWE

[Ammo Amy]

Kazuma

Ammo Amy

Kazuma

Would you be so kind to actually link the bill to either Wide Receiver, Fast and Furious, or gun walking if you are going to make the claim. This is the third time you have been asked and you still don't seem to be able to grasp that.

Oh, wait. You were expecting someone to actually state they are walking guns in any these bills?

No. I am expecting you to prove your statement that people who voted for this bill thought letting guns walk was a good idea. AnarchoPhiliac wrote:

Quote:

My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"

To which you replied:

Quote:

Issa voted "Yes" to this. I guess he thought it was a good idea.

And you keep humping that bill like it is some sort of supporting evidence. What I expect is, if you are going to make a claim, to support it with evidence.

I put forward the document under which the ATF performed their gun walking, just like they did in 2006. No, it's not the same bill, since they walked guns in 2006, ended it in 2007, then put forward another bill like it in 2008, which Issa supported. It was under the operations of this bill that the Phoenix ATF went back and did what they had done previously.

You can be as obnoxious and nasty as you wish, this doesn't change the fact that there is an established history of this happening and to exclude all that to pin it on one person is a bit ludicrous. I am saying we need to interview people involved in the entire scope of gun walking. That would mean the ATF agents, since this kind of scheme was cooked up by them, and under the auspices of Michael Mukasey. Maybe he can shed light where Eric Holder won't, don't you think?

Were people totally ignorant of what happened under Wide Receiver in 2006 and that a title of "Operation Gunrunner" involving ATF agents and Mexican drug cartels not involve something like running guns?

Did the previous AG hide that information completely? Or were the people who voted for it completely clueless?

The point is, this wasn't a new idea, and whether it was the brainchild of Mukasey, or some guys at the Arizona ATF, you have to look earlier than Holder to identify who thought it was a good idea in the first place.

[Sephistrife16]

I don't understand why anybody cares. JoD botched a job. Botched job resulted in border patrol agent's death. Tragedy. Congress gets angry at JoD. Obama invokes executive privilege for the first time. Worse things happen in the world.

[agrab0ekim]

Old Blue Collar Joe

agrab0ekim

Wendigo

AnarchoPhiliac

So I finally read up on this whole scandal and oh my. My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"

You know, hopefully nobody, but that's crossed my mind as being a somewhat more plausible ulterior motive than is generally being floated.

would give us a good excuse to take over mexico
also a good excuse to throw out whatever president thinks that's a good idea

Why in the name of ten ******** on a trampoline wound ANYONE want to 'take over Mexico'??? Damn all mighty. At least take over Canada. Only an idiot attacks a septic tank!

we've tried before?
I don't have a good reason, i just tend to think of "invasion" when I think sneaky sneaky opps like this

[redroosters]

Kazuma

agrab0ekim

I'm not sure congress ever has the right to see the AG's notes, he isn't their employee, he serves at the pleasure of the Big Black Boss

I'm pretty sure Congress has the power to engage in oversight of Federal agencies and investigate whether testimony and information which was provided to it was false, and if it was false, why it was false...

Or Obama can try to hide it with executive privilege, as the embarrassment of handing guns to drug cartels and being less than accurate about what his administration knew and when would undoubtedly hamper the functions of the executive branch. cat_confused

Now, I'm a bit curious as to whether or not you believe they handed the guns over on purpose or accidentally.

[Kazuma]

Ammo Amy

Kazuma

Ammo Amy

Kazuma

Would you be so kind to actually link the bill to either Wide Receiver, Fast and Furious, or gun walking if you are going to make the claim. This is the third time you have been asked and you still don't seem to be able to grasp that.

Oh, wait. You were expecting someone to actually state they are walking guns in any these bills?

No. I am expecting you to prove your statement that people who voted for this bill thought letting guns walk was a good idea. AnarchoPhiliac wrote:

Quote:

My mind is filled with all sorts of "Who the ******** thought it was a good idea to give automatic rifles to Drug Cartels?"

To which you replied:

Quote:

Issa voted "Yes" to this. I guess he thought it was a good idea.

And you keep humping that bill like it is some sort of supporting evidence. What I expect is, if you are going to make a claim, to support it with evidence.

I put forward the document under which the ATF performed their gun walking, just like they did in 2006.

Yet that document doesn't authorize the ATF to engage in gun walking. Therefore, unless you can establish that the tactic of gun walking was common knowledge or congress was briefed that it would be used, you can't argue that they thought it was a good idea. That's all I'm waiting for: you to provide evidence of that claim.

Ammo Amy

No, it's not the same bill, since they walked guns in 2006, ended it in 2007, then put forward another bill like it in 2008, which Issa supported. It was under the operations of this bill that the Phoenix ATF went back and did what they had done previously.

You can be as obnoxious and nasty as you wish, this doesn't change the fact that there is an established history of this happening and to exclude all that to pin it on one person is a bit ludicrous. I am saying we need to interview people involved in the entire scope of gun walking. That would mean the ATF agents, since this kind of scheme was cooked up by them, and under the auspices of Michael Mukasey.

I think it is fair to hold the AG responsible for Fast and Furious. He either doesn't know what is going on with the BATF, and given the inherent danger of this method and the international ramifications, should have better control over his constituent agencies or he went ahead with an idea that was tried once with (relatively speaking) better safeguards and still had glairing problems.

Ammo Amy

Maybe he can shed light where Eric Holder won't, don't you think?

I doubt Mukasey would have any insight on why this mistake was allowed to repeat itself under another administration.

Ammo Amy

Were people totally ignorant of what happened under Wide Receiver in 2006 and that a title of "Operation Gunrunner" involving ATF agents and Mexican drug cartels not involve something like running guns?

That's what Holder was claiming about gun walking: ignorance. At least until he had to retract that. As to the title of "Operation Gunrunner" that name alone doesn't in and of itself proscribe or describe the ATF actually helping the cartels run guns. It primarily consisted of a software system called eTrace and expanding its usage to other countries, not facilitating gun running.

Ammo Amy

The point is, this wasn't a new idea, and whether it was the brainchild of Mukasey, or some guys at the Arizona ATF, you have to look earlier than Holder to identify who thought it was a good idea in the first place.

The point is: you made a claim that this tactic was established history and that those voting for the bill you cited supported it as a good idea. A claim that, to this point, you have been unable to support with evidence. While you may call me nasty and obnoxious because I won't let you get away with it, I'm also [persistent/i] and won't let you get away with a claim you can't support as a feeble effort to mitigate the blame that the current administration deserves on the matter.

[Kazuma]

redroosters

Kazuma

agrab0ekim

I'm not sure congress ever has the right to see the AG's notes, he isn't their employee, he serves at the pleasure of the Big Black Boss

I'm pretty sure Congress has the power to engage in oversight of Federal agencies and investigate whether testimony and information which was provided to it was false, and if it was false, why it was false...

Or Obama can try to hide it with executive privilege, as the embarrassment of handing guns to drug cartels and being less than accurate about what his administration knew and when would undoubtedly hamper the functions of the executive branch. cat_confused

Now, I'm a bit curious as to whether or not you believe they handed the guns over on purpose or accidentally.

"They" as in the BATF or the Obama administration?

[Ammo Amy]

Kazuma

While you may call me nasty and obnoxious because I won't let you get away with it, I'm also [persistent/i] and won't let you get away with a claim you can't support as a feeble effort to mitigate the blame that the current administration deserves on the matter.

Actually, all you are doing is just ignoring the history of the operation. That's not getting you anywhere because I don't think you're interested in a rational or logical discussion. Your mind is already made up, so all we have is an impasse.

[Kazuma]

Ammo Amy

Kazuma

While you may call me nasty and obnoxious because I won't let you get away with it, I'm also [persistent and won't let you get away with a claim you can't support as a feeble effort to mitigate the blame that the current administration deserves on the matter.

Actually, all you are doing is just ignoring the history of the operation. That's not getting you anywhere because I don't think you're interested in a rational or logical discussion. Your mind is already made up, so all we have is an impasse.

The only reason we are at an impasse is because you refuse to support the claim you have made. Any time that you are ready to do the rational, logical thing and support your argument with evidence we can move right along. If you are just going to keep trying to throw red herrings in the mix and continue to make claims you can't support however, I'm content enough to keep hammering away until you do.

[Wendigo]

redroosters

Now, I'm a bit curious as to whether or not you believe they handed the guns over on purpose or accidentally.

Probably one of those two things.

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

redroosters

Kazuma

agrab0ekim

I'm not sure congress ever has the right to see the AG's notes, he isn't their employee, he serves at the pleasure of the Big Black Boss

I'm pretty sure Congress has the power to engage in oversight of Federal agencies and investigate whether testimony and information which was provided to it was false, and if it was false, why it was false...

Or Obama can try to hide it with executive privilege, as the embarrassment of handing guns to drug cartels and being less than accurate about what his administration knew and when would undoubtedly hamper the functions of the executive branch. cat_confused

Now, I'm a bit curious as to whether or not you believe they handed the guns over on purpose or accidentally.

If it wasn't done intentionally, as far as losing track of them, then whoever designed this needs to be sentenced to life for stupidity.

As it looks now, Holder is going to be found in contempt, since it appears that 20 dems are breaking ranks to vote to find him in contempt, to get all the documents so that they can move on this and see what should be done.

[redroosters]

Old Blue Collar Joe

redroosters

Kazuma

agrab0ekim

I'm not sure congress ever has the right to see the AG's notes, he isn't their employee, he serves at the pleasure of the Big Black Boss

I'm pretty sure Congress has the power to engage in oversight of Federal agencies and investigate whether testimony and information which was provided to it was false, and if it was false, why it was false...

Or Obama can try to hide it with executive privilege, as the embarrassment of handing guns to drug cartels and being less than accurate about what his administration knew and when would undoubtedly hamper the functions of the executive branch. cat_confused

Now, I'm a bit curious as to whether or not you believe they handed the guns over on purpose or accidentally.

If it wasn't done intentionally, as far as losing track of them, then whoever designed this needs to be sentenced to life for stupidity.

As it looks now, Holder is going to be found in contempt, since it appears that 20 dems are breaking ranks to vote to find him in contempt, to get all the documents so that they can move on this and see what should be done.

Huh. Some important people must have gotten pretty mad about this.

[redroosters]

Wendigo

redroosters

Now, I'm a bit curious as to whether or not you believe they handed the guns over on purpose or accidentally.

Probably one of those two things.

But which?